Wing Commander III acting...

[Mindcrime]

i agree. Now if Tolwyn was still alive it would have been different. He would have kept fleets all over the place.

 

[Ijuin]

A Midway provides more capability than a light carrier like the Yorktown-class while being cheaper than the heavy battle-carriers like the Vesuvius-class. They are meant for situations where small carriers aren't enough, but the super-heavies aren't needed.

 

[ChrisReid]

A Midway provides more capability than a light carrier like the Yorktown-class while being cheaper than the heavy battle-carriers like the Vesuvius-class. They are meant for situations where small carriers aren't enough, but the super-heavies aren't needed.

As Quarto explained, I think there's a lot more to it than that. Midways are heavy carriers too - called "MegaCarriers" throughout the fiction. They're not at all medium carriers that fit between the ones that carry less fighters and the ones that carry more.

From the ICIS Manual: "The entire crew of the Midway — naval, marine and space forces — has been hand-picked to test a completely new concept in capital ship design philosophy. We are all honored to serve on the maiden cruise of the first Confed megacarrier! More than twice the size of any wartime-era cap ship, the Midway is designed both for the longer cruises and more diversified missions of peacetime, and to be a virtual floating naval base in a time of military emergency." "Wartime-era carriers usually carried one squadron of fighters, plus the naval crew of the ship itself. Midway-class megacarriers are designed to carry their own crew, three full fighter squadrons (252 ships total), and a 1,500-man Marine Expeditionary Unit, for a total complement of up to 6000 personnel (as of this writing the Midway’s not yet up to full complement, carrying two squadrons and three companies of Marines). The point of the megacarrier concept is a vessel that can deal effectively with any local crisis — groundbased, orbital or deep-space — with minimal escort, but which can also serve as the center of a strike force or carrier group in the event of actual war."

That doesn't sound to me at all like it's cheaper than a "super carrier" - quite the opposite. It's an *even more* expensive carrier to fit an even more diverse role now that Confed can afford to focus on more than sheer firepower and survival.

 

[AD]

As Quarto explained, I think there's a lot more to it than that. Midways are heavy carriers too - called "MegaCarriers" throughout the fiction. They're not at all medium carriers that fit between the ones that carry less fighters and the ones that carry more.

From the ICIS Manual: "The entire crew of the Midway — naval, marine and space forces — has been hand-picked to test a completely new concept in capital ship design philosophy. We are all honored to serve on the maiden cruise of the first Confed megacarrier! More than twice the size of any wartime-era cap ship, the Midway is designed both for the longer cruises and more diversified missions of peacetime, and to be a virtual floating naval base in a time of military emergency." "Wartime-era carriers usually carried one squadron of fighters, plus the naval crew of the ship itself. Midway-class megacarriers are designed to carry their own crew, three full fighter squadrons (252 ships total), and a 1,500-man Marine Expeditionary Unit, for a total complement of up to 6000 personnel (as of this writing the Midway’s not yet up to full complement, carrying two squadrons and three companies of Marines). The point of the megacarrier concept is a vessel that can deal effectively with any local crisis — groundbased, orbital or deep-space — with minimal escort, but which can also serve as the center of a strike force or carrier group in the event of actual war."

That doesn't sound to me at all like it's cheaper than a "super carrier" - quite the opposite. It's an *even more* expensive carrier to fit an even more diverse role now that Confed can afford to focus on more than sheer firepower and survival.

Which makes it interesting that the Cerberus is somewhat of a polar opposite concept...

Still, the program that thought up the Midway is pretty much the kind of thing that could only gain traction in peacetime. (Just had a funny notion that the Deathstar is also a giant space station that you can move around into whatever theater of operation that you want it in... )

Which is another thing... For how big the Midway is, the game (except for in the fighter launch videos) makes the ship feel really small. In the briefing scenes you never get the sense that there's a ton of pilots. You only ever see a handful of locations - The bar, a hallway, the briefing room, and a corner of the flight deck, and that's it. You never see anyone's cabin. You don't get any shots that give you a sense of scale other than a brief scene at the end of the game where the camera pulls away from Casey and Stilleto looking out the bar window. You only really ever meet a dozen or so of the pilots. It just doesn't feel that huge. You could subsitute the victory for any exterior shot and the interiors we do see would mostly match up just fine.

On the other hand, WC3 had just as many (maybe more even) locations than you can visit on the Midway but you get a much better sense of scale. The Flight deck towers over the actors in the scenes, yet everthing on the Midway feels tight and cramped.

 

[-danr-]

Which makes it interesting that the Cerberus is somewhat of a polar opposite concept...

Still, the program that thought up the Midway is pretty much the kind of thing that could only gain traction in peacetime. (Just had a funny notion that the Deathstar is also a giant space station that you can move around into whatever theater of operation that you want it in... )

Which is another thing... For how big the Midway is, the game (except for in the fighter launch videos) makes the ship feel really small. In the briefing scenes you never get the sense that there's a ton of pilots. You only ever see a handful of locations - The bar, a hallway, the briefing room, and a corner of the flight deck, and that's it. You never see anyone's cabin. You don't get any shots that give you a sense of scale other than a brief scene at the end of the game where the camera pulls away from Casey and Stilleto looking out the bar window. You only really ever meet a dozen or so of the pilots. It just doesn't feel that huge. You could subsitute the victory for any exterior shot and the interiors we do see would mostly match up just fine.

On the other hand, WC3 had just as many (maybe more even) locations than you can visit on the Midway but you get a much better sense of scale. The Flight deck towers over the actors in the scenes, yet everthing on the Midway feels tight and cramped.

Indeed, in fact the only time I can recall thinking the Midway looked huge from inside was during the launch scene. Your ship goes on quite a trip on its way from embarkation to being in space.

 

[Mancubus]

Which makes it interesting that the Cerberus is somewhat of a polar opposite concept...

Still, the program that thought up the Midway is pretty much the kind of thing that could only gain traction in peacetime. (Just had a funny notion that the Deathstar is also a giant space station that you can move around into whatever theater of operation that you want it in... )

Which is another thing... For how big the Midway is, the game (except for in the fighter launch videos) makes the ship feel really small. In the briefing scenes you never get the sense that there's a ton of pilots. You only ever see a handful of locations - The bar, a hallway, the briefing room, and a corner of the flight deck, and that's it. You never see anyone's cabin. You don't get any shots that give you a sense of scale other than a brief scene at the end of the game where the camera pulls away from Casey and Stilleto looking out the bar window. You only really ever meet a dozen or so of the pilots. It just doesn't feel that huge. You could subsitute the victory for any exterior shot and the interiors we do see would mostly match up just fine.

On the other hand, WC3 had just as many (maybe more even) locations than you can visit on the Midway but you get a much better sense of scale. The Flight deck towers over the actors in the scenes, yet everthing on the Midway feels tight and cramped.

In fact, WC3 gave us three times as many locations as WCP... But i toatally agree - while there is some mention that there are other places on the Midway (science division etc), what we see looks cramped

 

[ChrisReid]

On the other hand, WC3 had just as many (maybe more even) locations than you can visit on the Midway but you get a much better sense of scale. The Flight deck towers over the actors in the scenes, yet everthing on the Midway feels tight and cramped.

Yeah, that's why I really like the intro scene where Casey arrives on the Midway. It's one of the rare big glimpses into the Midway flight deck where you can see it's absolutely colossal compared to the Victory, especially when you consider that this is only a fraction of the compartmentalized launch system on the megacarriers. They have separate hangar bays on both the aft port and starboard sides, plus the six forward launch tubes.

 

[Farbourne]

Here's a post from LOAF from a while back, but still relevant: https://www.wcnews.com/chatzone/threads/smoothing-the-edges.20496/page-5#post-310261



And another https://www.wcnews.com/chatzone/thr...ned-at-ktithrak-mang.21292/page-2#post-321053

Wow, thanks! I remember the first post (but couldn't find it); it was in response to when I brought up this issue years ago, but I couldn't remember what the answer was, other than it was not satisfying, as it didn't explain how Blair was able to pick up his body. (As an aside...I was kind of a haughty punk back then...apologies to the community! Of course, some others were too. The foibles of youth!)

But the second post...I had never seen. That really clears it up! And is more or less one of the scenarios I had suggested. I love the idea of Blair disregarding the arrest order to try to go out and rescue his friend.

 

[Farbourne]

That was kind of the point of the midway. It was supposted to be an "all your eggs in one basket" solution that eliminated the need for escorts and supply ships... But I don't really think that is a solution that makes sense either. It seems like an awfully expensive and pointless solution to a problem nobody was having.

It's pretty analogous to the problems we have with our modern naval force disposition. We're investing billions building a small number of huge Gerald Ford class supercarriers to project our air superiority; and adversaries are investing in cheap tactics to bring them down.

Some interesting reading on the topic:
http://archive.defensenews.com/arti...S-Navy-8217-s-Super-Carriers-Relic-Wars-Past-

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/th...-tons-of-supercarriers-79cb42029b8#.ynh52z2gu

It seems that Wing Commander was being prescient...

 

[Quarto]

It's pretty analogous to the problems we have with our modern naval force disposition. We're investing billions building a small number of huge Gerald Ford class supercarriers to project our air superiority; and adversaries are investing in cheap tactics to bring them down.

Well, you know how it is - Gerald Ford isn't generally considered the best and brightest president you ever had . Naming a carrier class after him was really asking for trouble...

But seriously, I think the trouble with the US supercarriers is precisely that they are more like the Vesuvius than a Midway. How often does the US need to use the total striking power of an entire carrier flight wing? Is it frequent enough to justify having 11 of them? In most cases, what would be far more useful for the US is a floating base. Yes, with a marine contingent, an onboard hospital, engineering workshops, et cetera. Maybe not a science division, though . But basically, a vessel that can single-handedly (well, plus a couple of escorts) provide all the resources needed to intervene in a small local crisis - a Syria, Somalia, or something else similar, without the need to maintain "just in case" military bases and unit deployments in so many places.

 

[Ijuin]

As Quarto explained, I think there's a lot more to it than that. Midways are heavy carriers too - called "MegaCarriers" throughout the fiction. They're not at all medium carriers that fit between the ones that carry less fighters and the ones that carry more.

Sorry, what I meant was that a Midway is intended to be lighter/cheaper than a Vesuvius carrier battlegroup, with the support ships included. Rather than having a carrier and a troopship and a science ship, etc., it's all one big ship, meaning that there is less overall mass and only one target to defend instead of several. Yes, it's "all eggs in one basket", but putting everything together means that the same mass of armor/shield generator/point defenses can provide greater thickness, which is sensible if your powerplant's output is the limiting factor in your shield strength (and therefore your ability to survive multiple hits).

 

[Quarto]

Sorry, what I meant was that a Midway is intended to be lighter/cheaper than a Vesuvius carrier battlegroup, with the support ships included. Rather than having a carrier and a troopship and a science ship, etc., it's all one big ship, meaning that there is less overall mass and only one target to defend instead of several. Yes, it's "all eggs in one basket", but putting everything together means that the same mass of armor/shield generator/point defenses can provide greater thickness, which is sensible if your powerplant's output is the limiting factor in your shield strength (and therefore your ability to survive multiple hits).

Yes, but this is entirely missing the point. While you may well be right that the Midway is cheaper than a Vesuvius battlegroup, this is evidently not an intention driving the design. As has already been pointed out, the Midway, in any wartime situation, is intended to form the core of a battlegroup. So, you cannot compare the Midway to a Vesuvius battlegroup - you would have to compare a Midway battlegroup to a Vesuvius battlegroup. That's in wartime, of course. In peacetime, the two are even more incomparable - a Vesuvius even with an entire escort, is still incapable of taking on the wide range of duties a Midway can take on.

 

[DefianceIndustries]

Gerald Ford isn't generally considered the best and brightest president you ever had . Naming a carrier class after him was really asking for trouble...

Well - I'm an old head, but I disagree with naming carriers after politicians to begin with and whole classes after politicians? Dooom! DOOOOOOOOOMMM I say.

 

[wcnut]

Well, you know how it is - Gerald Ford isn't generally considered the best and brightest president you ever had . Naming a carrier class after him was really asking for trouble...

Made me think of this little gem

It's Dana Carvey acting as Tom Brokaw, who wanted to go on vacation, so they had him record all these fictitious clips in-case they happened while he was away.

 

[Ijuin]

Yes, but this is entirely missing the point. While you may well be right that the Midway is cheaper than a Vesuvius battlegroup, this is evidently not an intention driving the design. As has already been pointed out, the Midway, in any wartime situation, is intended to form the core of a battlegroup. So, you cannot compare the Midway to a Vesuvius battlegroup - you would have to compare a Midway battlegroup to a Vesuvius battlegroup. That's in wartime, of course. In peacetime, the two are even more incomparable - a Vesuvius even with an entire escort, is still incapable of taking on the wide range of duties a Midway can take on.

Cheapness has its place in war or peace though--Confed would be able to field twenty Midways where it could field only ten Vesuviuses for example.

 

[Quarto]

Cheapness has its place in war or peace though--Confed would be able to field twenty Midways where it could field only ten Vesuviuses for example.

That's not a given. We have no indication that the Midway is cheaper than the Vesuvius. It could well be that a single Midway is more expensive than a single Vesuvius, because of all the additional functionality that the Midway provides. We don't really know anything about pricetags.

 

[Lilja]

The ideas put forward would for me put a midway as being more far expensive to build and maintain, but in the long run its ability to be multipurpose would make it cheaper to operate, as I could see the midway replacing perhaps three dedicated ships.

The idea of using the midway as a multirole ship would in the grand scheme of things reduce costs:

• for small scale policing of a system it could operate almost alone, with very few support ships, (essentially show up make a big impression, things instantly cool down)
  
• for a larger scale military operation it would be the centre of operations at the heart of a fleet
• for humanitarian and scientific operations, all non essential military equipment could be stowed away or moved to a base or another ship, so internal space and resources of the midway could be priortised for other purposes.

It might make sense that around the flight deck there would be general / multi purpose bays, that could quickly be refitted to suit mission requirements. So for military missions the bays could hold munitions, spares, perhaps even ships. For scientific missions, the bays could hold extra computers or equipment. For humanitarian - medical supplies, beds, perhaps even medical facilities.