Where did Bandit get the Vesuvius Specs?

[Concordia]

I just thought there were 14 AMG's?

I don't even remember it mentioned in the novel of the exact number of extra guns.

Also, the two torpedo tubes... just because two torpedoes were fired does not mean the ship has only two torpedo tubes. The WCM Tiger's Claw had 40 tubes, yet despite this it only fired two torps at the Kilrathi Destroyer ("Fire tubes one and two!").

LOAF stated that the ship had two torpedo-rooms. Two torpedo rooms does not necessarily mean two tubes either. Submarines for example can have a multitude of torpedoes in one room.

The 6/6/6 maneuverability was estimated by LOAF IIRC. I wish I knew how he did it. The stat doesn't seem that odd actually considering that other carriers had such maneuverability ratings. The thing that strikes me as odd is Hawk was stating how it's (The Vesuvius) maneuverability and acceleration makes the Intrepid look like it's standing still. 1 extra degree per second doesn't really make a ship look like it's standing still. There was actually no maneuverability rating listed in the game engine, which would explain why it had such an obscenely high maneuverability rating. That would however comply with Hawk's statements. Could anyone give me an estimate of the ships maneuverability in the game?

Does those 16 mass-drivers, and 24 lasers count as point-defense guns? Or do are they part of the main gun armament?

The next thing is speed. In the WC Novel, the Vesuvius was outrunning the Intrepid during the chase scene. Intrepid can do 150 k/s max. How come the Vesuvius can outrun them if they can do the same? The Intrepid in-game could muster 150 even with battle-damage.

I suppose the Vesuvius could gain on them scoops closed, but in that case, wouldn't Intrepid close her scoops as well and haul-ass too? I mean, I wouldn't be jogging along if someone's chasing at me as fast as they can; i'd kick up the speed too. The suggestion does appear to be a much faster ship chasing the Intrepid.

Intrepid does appear to carry a lot of fuel. It's catamaran-style shape probably allows a lot of room on the Nacelles for fuel, engines and intakes at the front. The torpedo tubes are, if you recall correctly, a centerline arrangement. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't haul ass. While the scene of the Intrepid gaining on Vesuvius before it made it's jump is suggestive of Intrepid being faster, one must also remember that ships often slow down before making jumps to better align themselves with the jump-point. Vesuvius was in the middle of decelerating for the jump when Intrepid came out full-speed. Of course, why Intrepid came out at such a high-speed would suggest that they decided to risk a highspeed jump (As a rule, you exit the jump at the exact same speed you entered at. The exception is the brief acceleration before entry, and the rapid deceleration on exit-- after that, you're just as fast as you entered). Tolwyn on the other-hand isn't in such a mood to take risks, especially when he wanted to make it back to Earth to rig a war with the UBW.

Another question is "Core Strength". Is 6,000 some kind of default figure. You'd figure a 250,000 ton machine would have a higher core-strength than an 18,200 ton cruiser.

Can I have some clarification here?

-Concordia

 

[Chernikov]

lets see here... I cant do the number of AMGs for you...

Two torpedos fired? Er... where? I can see two rooms, or just a tube out at the end of each "spar" or something else... they wouldnt take up that much space, so they could easily have been an afterthought.

as for the 6/6/6 in a cutscene we see the Vesuvius hauling ass, but when the St. Helens pops out in front it seems like the Intrepid makes like a fighter and performs an amazingly tight turn... perhaps the stats there need to be revised? When you compare ingame, then it stops meaning anything really (cmon, the Vesuvius whips around like mad...) The speed is an issue too, as the cutscene and game dont seem to correlate very well. Also consider that perhaps the Intrepid's engines are a bit older and after a few potshots might have been having heating issues. As for fuel... sure, the Intrepid has lots. The Vesuvii have space to spare.

The massdrivers and lasers most definitely ARE point-defence when your packing 14 AMGs and maybe a trick or two...


The speed change when jumping might have several explanations... power usage, drive interference, etc. Fleet Action seems to state that there is a significant change in jumptech that allows larger vessels passage, and this might dictate a lower entry speed (the Victory battlegroup in WC3, also older/smaller ships, seem to jump at speed routinely... correlation?)

Finally, Core Strength may be the damage to kill after you chew through the armor and shields... the fuel tanks and power source on a big ship are just as fragile as a small ship.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I just thought there were 14 AMG's? I don't even remember it mentioned in the novel of the exact number of extra guns.

You already asked me *THIS EXACT QUESTION* at the Aces Board. I even went through and circled where all the AMGs were on a freaking picture. And we talked about stuff from the novel.

Also, the two torpedo tubes... just because two torpedoes were fired does not mean the ship has only two torpedo tubes. The WCM Tiger's Claw had 40 tubes, yet despite this it only fired two torps at the Kilrathi Destroyer ("Fire tubes one and two!").

LOAF stated that the ship had two torpedo-rooms. Two torpedo rooms does not necessarily mean two tubes either. Submarines for example can have a multitude of torpedoes in one room.

The Tiger's Claw fired lots and lots and lots of torpedoes at the Kilrathi in the movie, which is why the handbook was obligated to list lots and lots and lots of torpedoes. We've seen the Vesuvius fire *two*, and therefore can list *two*.

The 6/6/6 maneuverability was estimated by LOAF IIRC. I wish I knew how he did it. The stat doesn't seem that odd actually considering that other carriers had such maneuverability ratings. The thing that strikes me as odd is Hawk was stating how it's (The Vesuvius) maneuverability and acceleration makes the Intrepid look like it's standing still. 1 extra degree per second doesn't really make a ship look like it's standing still. There was actually no maneuverability rating listed in the game engine, which would explain why it had such an obscenely high maneuverability rating. That would however comply with Hawk's statements. Could anyone give me an estimate of the ships maneuverability in the game?

Again, something you already asked me about. The Vesuvius takes exactly thirty seconds to turn around in the FMV. 180 divided by 30 is 6.

Does those 16 mass-drivers, and 24 lasers count as point-defense guns? Or do are they part of the main gun armament?

Main... gun... armament?

(No, no, turn it topwise... with your main finger! Your main finger!)

The next thing is speed. In the WC Novel, the Vesuvius was outrunning the Intrepid during the chase scene. Intrepid can do 150 k/s max. How come the Vesuvius can outrun them if they can do the same? The Intrepid in-game could muster 150 even with battle-damage.

I suppose the Vesuvius could gain on them scoops closed, but in that case, wouldn't Intrepid close her scoops as well and haul-ass too? I mean, I wouldn't be jogging along if someone's chasing at me as fast as they can; i'd kick up the speed too. The suggestion does appear to be a much faster ship chasing the Intrepid.

The speed was taken from the in-game stats.

Intrepid does appear to carry a lot of fuel. It's catamaran-style shape probably allows a lot of room on the Nacelles for fuel, engines and intakes at the front. The torpedo tubes are, if you recall correctly, a centerline arrangement. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't haul ass. While the scene of the Intrepid gaining on Vesuvius before it made it's jump is suggestive of Intrepid being faster, one must also remember that ships often slow down before making jumps to better align themselves with the jump-point. Vesuvius was in the middle of decelerating for the jump when Intrepid came out full-speed. Of course, why Intrepid came out at such a high-speed would suggest that they decided to risk a highspeed jump (As a rule, you exit the jump at the exact same speed you entered at. The exception is the brief acceleration before entry, and the rapid deceleration on exit-- after that, you're just as fast as you entered). Tolwyn on the other-hand isn't in such a mood to take risks, especially when he wanted to make it back to Earth to rig a war with the UBW.

What the hell are you talking about?

Another question is "Core Strength". Is 6,000 some kind of default figure. You'd figure a 250,000 ton machine would have a higher core-strength than an 18,200 ton cruiser.

The stat comes from the game.

Can I have some clarification here?

Apparently not!

 

[Concordia]

I'm replying to both LOAF and Chernikov's post.

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF


You already asked me *THIS EXACT QUESTION* at the Aces Board. I even went through and circled where all the AMGs were on a freaking picture. And we talked about stuff from the novel.

Actually, I said "I stand corrected" with the Anti-Matter Gun thing. The thing I'm asking you now is where did you get the 16 Mass-Drivers, and 24-lasers? That's NOT in the game engine.

Are these supposed to be point-defense guns or something? Or what?

The Tiger's Claw fired lots and lots and lots of torpedoes at the Kilrathi in the movie, which is why the handbook was obligated to list lots and lots and lots of torpedoes. We've seen the Vesuvius fire *two*, and therefore can list *two*.

"Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense" - Carl Sagan

As I said, just because Vesuvius fired two torps, it doesn't mean that it can ONLY fire two torps.

Vesuvius is designed to take on entire-fleets on it's own. That would suggest it would have a significant torpedo capacity. Two torpedo rooms does not mean two tubes. Each room could have 2 tubes, or 4 tubes. In fact, 8-tubes (4 tubes X 2 rooms) would be more plausable. Two tubes isn't that much firepower considering you require 30 seconds to lock them on.

Again, something you already asked me about. The Vesuvius takes exactly thirty seconds to turn around in the FMV. 180 divided by 30 is 6.

Actually you told me you computed it out to 6/6/6 DPS. You never actually told me HOW you did it.

Main... gun... armament?

(No, no, turn it topwise... with your main finger! Your main finger!)

What are you talking about? I asked you if those 16 mass-driver guns, and 24 lasers are main guns, like big lasers or mass-drivers, or are they the little tiny guns that are never counted in the games. Like the Bengal-Class's 22 point-defense weaponry.

The speed was taken from the in-game stats.

I know the game engine read 150. The novel on the other hand said the Vesuvius was outrunning the Intrepid. If Intrepid can do 150 and Vesuvius was outrunning them, Vesuvius would have to be faster.

What the hell are you talking about?

1.) I was trying to make a point that maybe Vesuvius was closing on them scoops-closed in the novel; of course, I also pointed out why that would be unlikely because Intrepid would close hers and run as well. No sane ship-captain would let themselves be overtaken by an enemy if they could avoid it.

2.) I was also pointing out that Intrepid has plenty of fuel onboard to run without her intakes on. The twin-hulled design would allow plenty of room for fuel on either of the nacelles (the side-hulls) with the reactors forming the rear, and engines at the back. The intakes at the front. The center-structure houses the bridge and the flight deck, and the center-line torpedo-tubes. The point of stating this was to show that Intrepid would have no reason for not closing her intakes and running if Vesuvius was closing scoops closed as well. In other words, no matter how you cut it; Vesuvius would be outrunning Intrepid.

3.) During jumps, ships have to slow down to align themselves with the jump point. Even if this alignment speed is 500 kps, capships when they're cruising across systems are doing like 5,000 or 10,000 kps sometimes with their fuel-scoops closed. They would have to decelerate significantly to be at 500 kps when they hit the jump-point. Hitting the jump point at high-speeds is notoriously dangerous.

My point was that Col. Blair would have risked entering the jump point at a higher rate of speed than Admiral Tolwyn would have because he was in a real rush. Tolwyn on the other hand was not expecting Blair to pop up right on his ass like he did; he figure'd he'd be taking awhile. Tolwyn also had a faster ship; he figured he could spend the extra time to safely perform the jump and would be less inclined to risk a highspeed jump like Blair would. Blair came out overtaking the Vesuvius from the rear, suggesting that the Vesuvius was not at top-speed, or was decelerating for the jump, while Blair was accelerating or already at a high-speed after the jump, which he did at a high-speed to enable him to gain on the Vesuvius.

4.) The thing about the jumpspeed exit thing was from the Confederation Handbook. You exit the jump point at the same speed you enter at, excluding the brief acceleration as you get sucked in, and the deceleration as you exit. Once the jump-closes, you're at normal speed again. You engage the jumps at 150, when the point closes you're at 150 again.

The stat comes from the game.

It still makes little sense. Even if their components on little ships have the same strength as big ones, the big ship has somewhat more mass to take the blow from the impact.

Apparently not!

Such remarks are largely not necessary.


PART II

Originally posted by Chernikov

lets see here... I cant do the number of AMGs for you...

That's not a problem Chernikov. LOAF has already pointed out the AMG positions.

Two torpedos fired? Er... where? I can see two rooms, or just a tube out at the end of each "spar" or something else... they wouldnt take up that much space, so they could easily have been an afterthought.

Can SOMEONE show me exactly where this torpedo room is? I think I have an idea, but I'm not exactly certain.

as for the 6/6/6 in a cutscene we see the Vesuvius hauling ass, but when the St. Helens pops out in front it seems like the Intrepid makes like a fighter and performs an amazingly tight turn... perhaps the stats there need to be revised? When you compare ingame, then it stops meaning anything really (cmon, the Vesuvius whips around like mad...) The speed is an issue too, as the cutscene and game dont seem to correlate very well. Also consider that perhaps the Intrepid's engines are a bit older and after a few potshots might have been having heating issues. As for fuel... sure, the Intrepid has lots. The Vesuvii have space to spare.

I would have to agree that the stats need some degree of revision as well. In game, the Vesuvius has the most unbelievable maneuverability. That thing seems like it's defying the laws of physics with it's maneuverability.

I also wonder if the helmsman was giving maximum maneuverability during that 180 turn. Maybe he was just doing a "gentle" turn.

The massdrivers and lasers most definitely ARE point-defence when your packing 14 AMGs and maybe a trick or two...

I'll let Bandit answer that one. He does seem to know his stuff.

The speed change when jumping might have several explanations... power usage, drive interference, etc. Fleet Action seems to state that there is a significant change in jumptech that allows larger vessels passage, and this might dictate a lower entry speed (the Victory battlegroup in WC3, also older/smaller ships, seem to jump at speed routinely... correlation?)

Actually, the Behemoth entered the jump-point pretty rapidly back in WC3 so I fail to see the point. The Behemoth was far larger than the Vesuvius.

Additionally, the Hakaga in Fleet Action featured modified jump-technology which enabled a 1,000+ meter long ship to jump more efficiently. Normally the antigraviton decay permits a jump within a 500 meter radius (1,000-meter diameter), to exceed this requires a much larger amount of power. The Kilrathi simply figured a way around the problem. I actually don't know how they did it, perhaps LOAF would know.

The ships seem to enter the jump point at around 120 kps, or whatever the slowest ship in the battlegroups top-speed is. The Ranger can do a top speed of 120 kps maximum open-intake speed. However fighters can do it at 500. Maybe your comment was right about smaller objects being able to jump at a faster-entry speed.

I'm guessing that Blair jumped at flank, and Tolwyn was crusing along figuring there was no need to rush; that Blair was far behind and in last week (figure of speach, means left behind -- just in case anyone says "what are you talking about!?"), then Blair came up behind him and started gaining... and you know the rest.

Finally, Core Strength may be the damage to kill after you chew through the armor and shields... the fuel tanks and power source on a big ship are just as fragile as a small ship.

Not exactly Chernikov, the Kilrathi Dreanought has a core strength of 80,000; the Bhantkara has a core strength of 30,000; the Fralthi: 30,100.

Obviously, we can conclude that bigger ships do have a higher core strength than smaller ones.

Now a big question is, how did these ships get such thin armor in WC4!

Caernaven in WC3: 600/600 Armor / 1,000 Shields
Caernaven in WC4: 600/400 Armor/ 600 shields

Destroyer in WC3: 1000/1000 Armor / 1,000 Shields
Destroyer in WC4: 400/400 Armor / 600 Shields

Talahassee in WC3: 1,000/1,000 Armor / 3,000 Shields
Talahassee in WC4: 400/400 Armor / 600 Shields

Ranger in WC3: 1,000/1,000 Armor / 3,000 Shields
Concordia in WC4: 300/300 Armor / 800 Shields

This one really bugs me; the Concordia class is BIGGER than the Ranger, AND NEWER. Rangers were ancient, and smaller, yet they have more powerful shields and armor!??

Maybe Bandit has an explanation. TC also seems to know his stuff too.

-Concordia

 

[Starkey]

Apart from the discussion, one gotta have guts to argue WC specs with LOAF.

 

[dacis2]

ENGINE DIFFERENCES!

PURE AND SIMPLE ENGINE DIFFERENCES!!!!!

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Are these supposed to be point-defense guns or something? Or what?

Yes, they're turrets, not batteries.

"Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense" - Carl Sagan

As I said, just because Vesuvius fired two torps, it doesn't mean that it can ONLY fire two torps.

Yes -- but this doesn't work both ways. The possibility that something exists is *not* proof that it does. The Vesuvius could, for all we know, have a million torpedos. But all we know -- and thus what is in the specs -- is that it has *two*. I can not reasonably go "Well, this ship *might* have more weapons! I'll add them to the ships database!".

Vesuvius is designed to take on entire-fleets on it's own. That would suggest it would have a significant torpedo capacity. Two torpedo rooms does not mean two tubes. Each room could have 2 tubes, or 4 tubes. In fact, 8-tubes (4 tubes X 2 rooms) would be more plausable. Two tubes isn't that much firepower considering you require 30 seconds to lock them on.

This entire statement is based on an assumption -- no where is it stated that the Vesuvius is designed to take on entire fleets. As far as we know, *no* carrier (up to and including the newest Midway class) has been designed to do this -- so there's no reason to believe that the Vesuvius is something special. It's just a heavy carrier.

I know the game engine read 150. The novel on the other hand said the Vesuvius was outrunning the Intrepid. If Intrepid can do 150 and Vesuvius was outrunning them, Vesuvius would have to be faster.

So... you *know* that the game engine says 150... but you still don't understand where I got the number from?

In a 'capship chase' the maximum speed (with scoops open) really doesn't matter. Also take into account that the Intrepid was crippled with at least one reactor down -- and therefore would be *slower* than her 150 kps.

1.) I was trying to make a point that maybe Vesuvius was closing on them scoops-closed in the novel; of course, I also pointed out why that would be unlikely because Intrepid would close hers and run as well. No sane ship-captain would let themselves be overtaken by an enemy if they could avoid it.

They were racing to get to Earth in time -- of course they were travelling with scoops closed.

2.) I was also pointing out that Intrepid has plenty of fuel onboard to run without her intakes on. The twin-hulled design would allow plenty of room for fuel on either of the nacelles (the side-hulls) with the reactors forming the rear, and engines at the back. The intakes at the front. The center-structure houses the bridge and the flight deck, and the center-line torpedo-tubes. The point of stating this was to show that Intrepid would have no reason for not closing her intakes and running if Vesuvius was closing scoops closed as well. In other words, no matter how you cut it; Vesuvius would be outrunning Intrepid.

But that doesn't make sense. I mean... why would you ever be able to look at two completely fictional designs and go "Oh, that one must have lots of fuel". That's just a completely unreasonable assumption. Especially given that fuel is gathered with enourmous electromagnetic fields, not by simply physically sucking hydrogen into the intakes.

3.) During jumps, ships have to slow down to align themselves with the jump point. Even if this alignment speed is 500 kps, capships when they're cruising across systems are doing like 5,000 or 10,000 kps sometimes with their fuel-scoops closed. They would have to decelerate significantly to be at 500 kps when they hit the jump-point. Hitting the jump point at high-speeds is notoriously dangerous.

... and a tactic commonly used by Tolwyn.

My point was that Col. Blair would have risked entering the jump point at a higher rate of speed than Admiral Tolwyn would have because he was in a real rush. Tolwyn on the other hand was not expecting Blair to pop up right on his ass like he did; he figure'd he'd be taking awhile. Tolwyn also had a faster ship; he figured he could spend the extra time to safely perform the jump and would be less inclined to risk a highspeed jump like Blair would. Blair came out overtaking the Vesuvius from the rear, suggesting that the Vesuvius was not at top-speed, or was decelerating for the jump, while Blair was accelerating or already at a high-speed after the jump, which he did at a high-speed to enable him to gain on the Vesuvius.

But... none of that happened... the ships chased eachother to the jump point... and Vesuvius was going faster until it turned around. It's... as simple as that.

4.) The thing about the jumpspeed exit thing was from the Confederation Handbook. You exit the jump point at the same speed you enter at, excluding the brief acceleration as you get sucked in, and the deceleration as you exit. Once the jump-closes, you're at normal speed again. You engage the jumps at 150, when the point closes you're at 150 again.

It's possible that there's some way to use a jump to *accelerate* to incredibly high speeds... considering some of the 'FTL' system crossings we see after 'speeding' jumps in WC.

It still makes little sense. Even if their components on little ships have the same strength as big ones, the big ship has somewhat more mass to take the blow from the impact.

Allow me to repeat myself: THE STAT COMES FROM THE GAME. This is all you need to know, given that the question was 'Where did the stat come from?'. Of course it *makes sense*. It's a given fact.

Can SOMEONE show me exactly where this torpedo room is? I think I have an idea, but I'm not exactly certain.

The tips of the prongs.

I would have to agree that the stats need some degree of revision as well. In game, the Vesuvius has the most unbelievable maneuverability. That thing seems like it's defying the laws of physics with it's maneuverability.

I also wonder if the helmsman was giving maximum maneuverability during that 180 turn. Maybe he was just doing a "gentle" turn.

Yes, because the most sensible response to your commanding officer ordering "One-eighty. Now." with the intention of pointing your forward weapons arc at an attacking enemy is to *gently* turn the ship to hide its super secret statistics.

At 6/6/6 the Vesuvius is more maneuverable than the average capship's 5/5/5. It's *not* a 250,000 tonne fighter. Leave it at that.

Actually, the Behemoth entered the jump-point pretty rapidly back in WC3 so I fail to see the point. The Behemoth was far larger than the Vesuvius.

Presumably Behemoth was limited to larger jump points.

Additionally, the Hakaga in Fleet Action featured modified jump-technology which enabled a 1,000+ meter long ship to jump more efficiently. Normally the antigraviton decay permits a jump within a 500 meter radius (1,000-meter diameter), to exceed this requires a much larger amount of power. The Kilrathi simply figured a way around the problem. I actually don't know how they did it, perhaps LOAF would know.

The Vesuvius did not have this capacity (although Midway does) -- it was restricted to larger jump points.

The ships seem to enter the jump point at around 120 kps, or whatever the slowest ship in the battlegroups top-speed is. The Ranger can do a top speed of 120 kps maximum open-intake speed. However fighters can do it at 500. Maybe your comment was right about smaller objects being able to jump at a faster-entry speed.

Fact: with no point of reference, you cannot measure speed. There is absolutely no reason or way to attribute such a number to the WC3 jump scenes. They could be travelling at two meters per second.

I'm guessing that Blair jumped at flank, and Tolwyn was crusing along figuring there was no need to rush; that Blair was far behind and in last week (figure of speach, means left behind -- just in case anyone says "what are you talking about!?"), then Blair came up behind him and started gaining... and you know the rest.

Okay... so let me get this straight...

The reason you're complaining that the Vesuvius' speed in my stats is wrong (despite knowing that it comes from the same game we're talking about) is that you've CREATED YOUR OWN CONFUSING STORY THAT IT CONFLICTS WITH? And you're expecting me to go "Oh, I forgot about the confusing story you created! Of course I'll change the stat to something other than what was in the game!"

Not exactly Chernikov, the Kilrathi Dreanought has a core strength of 80,000; the Bhantkara has a core strength of 30,000; the Fralthi: 30,100.

Obviously, we can conclude that bigger ships do have a higher core strength than smaller ones.

Now a big question is, how did these ships get such thin armor in WC4!

Core strength is a completely meaningless figure 'in-universe'. There's no "realistic" equivalent, since the effects of weapons will differ depending on where you hit the ship.

Caernaven in WC3: 600/600 Armor / 1,000 Shields
Caernaven in WC4: 600/400 Armor/ 600 shields

These actually aren't the same ship. The WC3 frigate doesn't even really exist.

Destroyer in WC3: 1000/1000 Armor / 1,000 Shields
Destroyer in WC4: 400/400 Armor / 600 Shields

Talahassee in WC3: 1,000/1,000 Armor / 3,000 Shields
Talahassee in WC4: 400/400 Armor / 600 Shields

Ranger in WC3: 1,000/1,000 Armor / 3,000 Shields
Concordia in WC4: 300/300 Armor / 800 Shields

Here is the explanation: ships in Wing Commander 3 have more armor and shields than those in Wing Commander 4.

 

[Concordia]

Core strength is a completely meaningless figure 'in-universe'. There's no "realistic" equivalent, since the effects of weapons will differ depending on where you hit the ship.

Still, I just figure a 1600 meter long ship should have a greater core strength than a 530 meter long cruiser, which is a smaller, lighter vessel.

These actually aren't the same ship. The WC3 frigate doesn't even really exist.

I think there is a frigate that makes a brief appearance; but it's just a Destroyer with the name "Frigate" showing up on the screen.

Is there a model for the frigate in WC3 hidden in the guts of the game sort of like that Black-Lance Escort Carrier in WC4?

Here is the explanation: ships in Wing Commander 3 have more armor and shields than those in Wing Commander 4.

That's is very odd to say the least. Since the WC3 and WC4 Destroyers, and Cruisers are the SAME CLASS OF SHIP!

I can understand why you would derate a fighters armament, I can even understand why you would make a torpedo deliver 1/4 it's normal wartime yield. But to spend time and effort to strip and peel the armor off a capship, and to spend additional time to take the shield generator out, and put in an inferior model in TOTALLY eludes me. It makes no sense; it's totally illogical.

-Concordia

 

[Concordia]

Before you start reading, there are two posts I made. Since there is a 10,000 Character Limit-- I posted the last half first and the first part last so you can read it from start to finish in correct order.
Feel free to respond to both

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF


Yes, they're turrets, not batteries.

Okay they're point-defense guns. But where did you get these numbers from? The 14 AMG's I get, but you haven't said where you got the 16-mass drivers, and 24 laser-turrets. As of now, it just looks like you've pulled these numbers right out of your butt.

Yes -- but this doesn't work both ways. The possibility that something exists is *not* proof that it does. The Vesuvius could, for all we know, have a million torpedos. But all we know -- and thus what is in the specs -- is that it has *two*. I can not reasonably go "Well, this ship *might* have more weapons! I'll add them to the ships database!".

Okay

This entire statement is based on an assumption -- no where is it stated that the Vesuvius is designed to take on entire fleets. As far as we know, *no* carrier (up to and including the newest Midway class) has been designed to do this -- so there's no reason to believe that the Vesuvius is something special. It's just a heavy carrier.

Actually Tolwyn mentioned they were also used for power-projection.

So... you *know* that the game engine says 150... but you still don't understand where I got the number from?

I understand where you got the number from, I'm saying it doesn't appear to make sense with the WC4 Novel, which said Vesuvius was outrunning her.

In a 'capship chase' the maximum speed (with scoops open) really doesn't matter. Also take into account that the Intrepid was crippled with at least one reactor down -- and therefore would be *slower* than her 150 kps.

Actually the 150 speed in the game engine would assume the 1 reactor *was* damaged. The Intrepid's reactor was damaged the whole game from the moment you first saw it. It was designed from the start with the 'damaged' specs in the game engine.

They were racing to get to Earth in time -- of course they were travelling with scoops closed.

Nothing to say here

But that doesn't make sense. I mean... why would you ever be able to look at two completely fictional designs and go "Oh, that one must have lots of fuel". That's just a completely unreasonable assumption. Especially given that fuel is gathered with enourmous electromagnetic fields, not by simply physically sucking hydrogen into the intakes.

I was just trying to say that there was no reason to suggest Blair would run scoops open.

... and a tactic commonly used by Tolwyn.

True. Tolwyn did more jumps than Michael Jordan at a slam-dunk contest.

But... none of that happened... the ships chased eachother to the jump point... and Vesuvius was going faster until it turned around. It's... as simple as that.

Actually Blair said that they were gaining on them...

It's possible that there's some way to use a jump to *accelerate* to incredibly high speeds... considering some of the 'FTL' system crossings we see after 'speeding' jumps in WC.

What do you mean FTL system crossing?

Allow me to repeat myself: THE STAT COMES FROM THE GAME. This is all you need to know, given that the question was 'Where did the stat come from?'. Of course it *makes sense*. It's a given fact.

Considering that the Intrepid's top speed even damaged would be 150, which isn't hard to imagine, considering there are Destroyers such as the Sheffield's, which do 200 kps, and the Gilgamesh's which do 250 at max; the Vesuvius was outrunning them in the Novel, suggesting that the Vesuvius is indeed faster than 150 kps.

The tips of the prongs.

I didn't know that. I thought it was on the sides of the prongs.

Yes, because the most sensible response to your commanding officer ordering "One-eighty. Now." with the intention of pointing your forward weapons arc at an attacking enemy is to *gently* turn the ship to hide its super secret statistics.

Good point.

At 6/6/6 the Vesuvius is more maneuverable than the average capship's 5/5/5. It's *not* a 250,000 tonne fighter. Leave it at that.

I *NEVER* said the Vesuvius was a 250,000 ton-fighter. I simply said it was maneuverable enough to make the Intrepid look like it was standing still. That would imply significantly more maneuverability than the 6/6/6 figure. The game maneuverability looked more than 6/6/6 in game (not cinematic scenes). That's all I said.

Presumably Behemoth was limited to larger jump points.

Uhm, you're actually making a common error here that's not really well understood. And you don't have to; it's pseudoscience.

Two factors with jumps

1.) Size of ship: If the ship is too big, the jump-field will not be able to support the ships mass. If that doesn't happen, whatever is not supported by the jump-field (antigraviton-flux) does not make the jump. It gets left behind meaning only parts of the ship (pieces closer to the jump-drive itself) make the jump. The antigraviton's can only travel a certain distance (500 meter radius) before decaying. That means anything within that 500 meter radius (or 1,000 meter bubble) makes the jump. To make the bubble bigger, you need exponentially more power. The Hakaga (and Vesuvius-- they were based on Hakaga technology) feature technology which enables them to make jumps even though they are bigger than the 1,000 meter diameter.

2.) Size of the Jump-Node: If the node is too small, it doesn't matter if you can jump all of the ship; the passage is too small for the ship to wedge into.

Think of it this way. You have a small light person, who can jump like a flee. Then you have a big fat guy who can't jump very well. Now the Hakaga is this figurative fat man who can jump like a flee just like the small light person. That's principle 1.

Principle two is me, who despite being tall, I'm not fat at all, and I can slip through small spaces without much difficulty.

Take that fat man, he just *CANT* fit through the narrow tunnel I can. It doesn't matter how you cut it, the tunnel just can't accomodate him.

Vesuvius wouldn't be able to jump PERIOD if it didn't have the Hakaga-style jump-engines.

The fact that Vesuvius can't jump through large jump-nodes does not illustrate the fact that it can't jump all it's mass, it just means it can't fit through certain nodes because the jump-nodes are too small; it has nothing to do with it's ability to transition it's mass across jumpspace; it just has to do with the fact that the jump-lines are too skinny to fit the big fat supercarrier through.
.

The Vesuvius did not have this capacity (although Midway does) -- it was restricted to larger jump points.

See above for the Vesuvius explanation.

I don't know HOW or even IF Midway can use normal jump-points, but that's a different technology altogether. That's actually stretching a jump-point out to make it wider so that a skinny tunnel can actually fit a large object throgh.

It's sort of like a snake unhinging it's jaw to accomodate a large prey through. The snake itself could not fit the prey through normally, but by unhinging it's jaw; it can make itself wider and accomodate the prey through. The Midway has apparently figured out a way to make the Jump-Points "Unhinge".

Fact: with no point of reference, you cannot measure speed. There is absolutely no reason or way to attribute such a number to the WC3 jump scenes. They could be travelling at two meters per second.

Actually at minimum, the Victory had to be moving at at least 250 meters a second, and most likely more. Considering the Victory is 720 meters long. (I haven't actually seen the Victory jumpscene in quite a while, this is just a visual memory).

Okay... so let me get this straight...

*Braces for Verbal Barrage*

The reason you're complaining that the Vesuvius' speed in my stats is wrong (despite knowing that it comes from the same game we're talking about) is that you've CREATED YOUR OWN CONFUSING STORY THAT IT CONFLICTS WITH? And you're expecting me to go "Oh, I forgot about the confusing story you created! Of course I'll change the stat to something other than what was in the game!"

No. Here's what I'm saying

-Intrepid's speed is listed at 150 kps

-Vesuvius's speed is listed at 150 kps

-Intrepids game engine speed is listed at 150 BECAUSE of damage
(the ship was always damaged and was designed with the damaged game engine stats

-Intrepid was capable of 150 kps with even that one reactor dead

-Vesuvius was outrunning Intrepid in the WC4 Novel

-Therefore Vesuvius must be FASTER than 150 kps

-Since Vesuvius is capable of going faster than 150 kps and the game engine lists it's top speed at 150, the game engine is wrong compared to the novel.

-Therefore in the WC4 Novel, the Vesuvius was capable of exceeding 150 kps.

(To be continued... Next Post)

 

[Ripper]

Easy does it! You're treading on thin water!

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Okay they're point-defense guns. But where did you get these numbers from? The 14 AMG's I get, but you haven't said where you got the 16-mass drivers, and 24 laser-turrets. As of now, it just looks like you've pulled these numbers right out of your butt.

The mass drivers are mentioned in the novel -- 16 is the minumum number there could be, based on their description. The laser turrets are from a scene in WCIV where a screen about the Vesuvius' laser turrets appears on one of Intrepid's monitors (it's a Hawk/Panther choice scene). They're also mentioned in the novel, but not by number.

Actually Tolwyn mentioned they were also used for power-projection.

Power projection does not equal taking on entire fleets by yourself. As we see in the end of the game (if you lose), the Vesuvius has quite a support fleet. (Anyway -- a *weapon* used for *power-projection*? Imagine!)

I understand where you got the number from, I'm saying it doesn't appear to make sense with the WC4 Novel, which said Vesuvius was outrunning her.

Again, though, they were certainly travelling with scoops open... and Intrepid was crippled.

Actually the 150 speed in the game engine would assume the 1 reactor *was* damaged. The Intrepid's reactor was damaged the whole game from the moment you first saw it. It was designed from the start with the 'damaged' specs in the game engine.

Not really -- we don't know that she's travelling at 150 kps ever, really. It's just the maxiumum programmed into the game... and it applies to other ships of the same class too (well, the Tango -- which is undamaged).

What do you mean FTL system crossing?

In the movie novel, for instance, the fleet goes from Neptune to Sol in nine minutes. In the WCIV intro, Blair and Maniac go from Jupiter to L5 in minutes... ships that enter jumps at high speeds seem to be capable of exiting them at *impossible* speeds.

Considering that the Intrepid's top speed even damaged would be 150, which isn't hard to imagine, considering there are Destroyers such as the Sheffield's, which do 200 kps, and the Gilgamesh's which do 250 at max; the Vesuvius was outrunning them in the Novel, suggesting that the Vesuvius is indeed faster than 150 kps.

But we shouldn't consider that... because it's not true... and it's all academic when your scoops are closed...



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Presumably Behemoth was limited to larger jump points.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uhm, you're actually making a common error here that's not really well understood. And you don't have to; it's pseudoscience.

Two factors with jumps
*jump stuff snipped*

What are you talking about? You're just making stuff up. Jump points are different sizes. Large (by mass and volume) ships can use large ones but not small ones. Small ones can use any of them. The technology premiered on the Hakaga allowed it to use *any* jump point. Confed didn't have a similar technology until WCP -- hence the Vesuvius could not use some jump points.

See above for the Vesuvius explanation.

I don't know HOW or even IF Midway can use normal jump-points, but that's a different technology altogether. That's actually stretching a jump-point out to make it wider so that a skinny tunnel can actually fit a large object throgh.

It's sort of like a snake unhinging it's jaw to accomodate a large prey through. The snake itself could not fit the prey through normally, but by unhinging it's jaw; it can make itself wider and accomodate the prey through. The Midway has apparently figured out a way to make the Jump-Points "Unhinge".

Great, except you're *MAKING THIS UP*. You can't point out an 'error' when you're MAKING UP FACTS.

No. Here's what I'm saying

-Intrepid's speed is listed at 150 kps

-Vesuvius's speed is listed at 150 kps

-Intrepids game engine speed is listed at 150 BECAUSE of damage
(the ship was always damaged and was designed with the damaged game engine stats

-Intrepid was capable of 150 kps with even that one reactor dead

-Vesuvius was outrunning Intrepid in the WC4 Novel

-Therefore Vesuvius must be FASTER than 150 kps

-Since Vesuvius is capable of going faster than 150 kps and the game engine lists it's top speed at 150, the game engine is wrong compared to the novel.

-Therefore in the WC4 Novel, the Vesuvius was capable of exceeding 150 kps.

Do I have to point out that it was with *scoops closed* *again*? Because that'd be like the sixth time. And your facts are *faulty*.

Still, I just figure a 1600 meter long ship should have a greater core strength than a 530 meter long cruiser, which is a smaller, lighter vessel.

It's entirely game-subjective, though... since its a value that matters only to people playing the game.

I think there is a frigate that makes a brief appearance; but it's just a Destroyer with the name "Frigate" showing up on the screen.

Is there a model for the frigate in WC3 hidden in the guts of the game sort of like that Black-Lance Escort Carrier in WC4?

Yeah, Paladin arrives (in the Alcor system) in a Destroyer named Frigate.

No, no model -- they hadn't made one, which is why it wasn't in the game, IIRC.

That's is very odd to say the least. Since the WC3 and WC4 Destroyers, and Cruisers are the SAME CLASS OF SHIP!

I can understand why you would derate a fighters armament, I can even understand why you would make a torpedo deliver 1/4 it's normal wartime yield. But to spend time and effort to strip and peel the armor off a capship, and to spend additional time to take the shield generator out, and put in an inferior model in TOTALLY eludes me. It makes no sense; it's totally illogical.

Maybe they're new destroyers. Or different variants. I'm sure there's lots of reasons: we just odn't know what they are.

 

[dacis2]

the battle of LOAF vs n00b, or n00b vs reality, who will prevail?

 

[t.c.cgi]

A simple explaination for the stripped systems could be the Treaty of Torgo. It was well mentioned in WC:FC that Confed as a whole felt bad for nuking Kilrah, and made a lot of concessions. Considering pirates aren't known for weilding massive fleets with heavy carriers, it seems a reasonable concession (at the time).

 

[beergod]

or just confed trying to cut costs on new ships....

 

[Madman]

having read this post,i have to say theres a few minor points id like to make

1) does the vesuvius have an anti matter gun? i never read anything bout that (i havent read the novels) but i dont claim to be any expert here, so if perhaps someone could clear this up for me

2) the vesuvius designed to take on a fleet?! now that simply cannot be true, the vesuvius is by its very design shape, just a bloody big victory! (sorry for the poor comparison but i hope u get what i mean) not even the midway is designed in that light, and it is supposed to run into sectors alone WHERE NECESSARY the vesuvius isnt

3) i may just have read your post wrong concordia, but where was the vesuvius chasing the intrepid? i dont remember this! intrepid chasing vesuvius, that you turned to later, is obvious,

4) why is the vesuvius more manouverable than the intrepid, because its supposed to be (i hope i have my dates right here) nearing 30 years newer! plus the intrepid recieves a full on ass kicking by the lexington at the beginning!, it wudnt matter if the intrepid had fighter manouverability and speed, after what it goes through, im surprised it can even move, let alone race the vesuvius to earth!

5) is the behemoth bigger than the vesuvius? just a lil query that one

6) the ratings changes between 3 and 4, can be explained by 2 things.
a) its a different game hence the system for rating in the engine might have changed?
b) the war is over, guns and fighters are downgraded, so are the cap ships, for industrys sake its worth while shaving that 100cm of the side of the carrier, cos at the end of it u get a shitload of metal that can be melted down and sold.

7) jump points, tolwyn didnt need to race the intrepid, he was going to win anyway, thats stated in the game, he deliberately turns to fight the intrepid, so even if the intrepid can hit 150, the vesuvius if runnin at 150 is still in front of it! no gaining, and the intrepid WILL NOT have been running at 150, cos its been kicked all over the place, hence the vesuvius gains.

8) final point. the maximum speed is dictated by the scoops, with scoops closed the ships have NO maximum speed, science dictates this. its like modern rocket ships. the engines keep accelerating and the speed keeps rising. since the vesuvius was out of the jump point first, AND has bigger engines and thus more acceleration AND is undamaged and thus has better acceleration
as a result of course hes gaining on the intrepid HES GOIN FASTER!. as for the size of the wormhole, its like a rubber tube, mass and size dictate what can go through, i presume the hakaga style invention simply "shrinks" (for want of a better word) the ship, since i havent read that book, i dont know what its on about, so if someone could explain?

Thanks
Madman

p.s.
i know i may seem to be reading this all not as what the game shows, or as what the book shows, but as what wud happen in the real world, but put that down to me just being a lil strange

 

[Bandit LOAF]

1) does the vesuvius have an anti matter gun? i never read anything bout that (i havent read the novels) but i dont claim to be any expert here, so if perhaps someone could clear this up for me

Yes -- the 'yellow beams' in the game engine are Anti-Matter Guns.

5) is the behemoth bigger than the vesuvius? just a lil query that one

Significantly so.

 

[Haesslich]

Originally posted by Madman
having read this post,i have to say theres a few minor points id like to make

1) does the vesuvius have an anti matter gun? i never read anything bout that (i havent read the novels) but i dont claim to be any expert here, so if perhaps someone could clear this up for me

Yes. As LOAF said, look at the beams fired in game during the battle between it and the Mt. St. Helens.

2) the vesuvius designed to take on a fleet?! now that simply cannot be true, the vesuvius is by its very design shape, just a bloody big victory! (sorry for the poor comparison but i hope u get what i mean) not even the midway is designed in that light, and it is supposed to run into sectors alone WHERE NECESSARY the vesuvius isnt

The Vesuvius was designed as a supercarrier - it can carry four whole fighter wings (Kilrathi War squadron sizes) that makes it the functional equivalent of a good-sized battle group. Remember that before Fleet Action, four carriers (as used in End Run) was half of what Confed had left. That's a pretty bloody big force to use, fighter-wise, against other ships.

With escort ships (destroyers and frigates), it could well form a battle group. It's heavily armored, and its fighter wings are awesomely powerful, but it's not QUITE designed to take whole fleets by itself. It's designed to take battle groups on.

As for the Midway, its design is centered around the idea of 'mobile starbase' - it performs functions that Vesuvius wasn't designed for. It isn't necessarily meant to go by itself into a lot of spots, but that's how it worked out in Prophecy because our battle group hadn't fully assembled.

3) i may just have read your post wrong concordia, but where was the vesuvius chasing the intrepid? i dont remember this! intrepid chasing vesuvius, that you turned to later, is obvious,

This happens in the WC4 novel, where the Vesuvius chases Intrepid through three systems. The closest thing to this in the game is the first mission in Sol System, where you've been pursued by the Vesuvius in cutscreens and need to take her down with the Flashpak or torps.

4) why is the vesuvius more manouverable than the intrepid, because its supposed to be (i hope i have my dates right here) nearing 30 years newer! plus the intrepid recieves a full on ass kicking by the lexington at the beginning!, it wudnt matter if the intrepid had fighter manouverability and speed, after what it goes through, im surprised it can even move, let alone race the vesuvius to earth!

They got some repairs along the way, IIRC, so they were able to compete with Vesuvius despite their damage.

5) is the behemoth bigger than the vesuvius? just a lil query that one

Considering that you were supposed to be able to fit a few Concordia-class carriers in the barrel, according to the WC3 novel, I assume it's a TAD larger.

8) final point. the maximum speed is dictated by the scoops, with scoops closed the ships have NO maximum speed, science dictates this. its like modern rocket ships. the engines keep accelerating and the speed keeps rising. since the vesuvius was out of the jump point first, AND has bigger engines and thus more acceleration AND is undamaged and thus has better acceleration
as a result of course hes gaining on the intrepid HES GOIN FASTER!. as for the size of the wormhole, its like a rubber tube, mass and size dictate what can go through, i presume the hakaga style invention simply "shrinks" (for want of a better word) the ship, since i havent read that book, i dont know what its on about, so if someone could explain?

Thanks
Madman

p.s.
i know i may seem to be reading this all not as what the game shows, or as what the book shows, but as what wud happen in the real world, but put that down to me just being a lil strange [/B]

I'd argue #8: We don't know how the Hakaga-type system worked, though it may simply allow the ship itself to create a larger wormhole to shove the greater displacement through. Beyond that, there's likely to be a maximum speed you want to achieve with those ships, for fear of things like damage through shields (if you're going fast enough, those particles and all will get through - particularly with scoops closed) and for more practical matters like deceleration with a reasonable amount of fuel expended on the decel burn.

Beyond that, there's a practical limit to the speed you can enter the wormhole in - in End Run, we learn that at least two frigates made only a partial-jump due to an excessively high speed. Ditto in WC2, we lose the escort William Tell through a similarly risky high-speed transit.

I'm not sure I'd want to run Vesuvius through the jump point at her maximum speed, not with what that carrier cost.

 

[I'm thinkin...]

What is with the long freakin posts. If you want an explantion from LOAF just send him an e-mail. Don't use the board to argue about 30 different things, especially with LOAF. I learned the folly of that very quickly myself

 

[TC]

Quiet you. What's with people who complain that people are using things made for discussion to discuss things?

 

[Madman]

cheers guys re the info bout anti matter guns and the behemoth size, are the anti-matter guns, sivar style? ie similar to the concordias main weapon or different?

2ndly by designed to go in on its own, i didnt mean the midway taking entire battlegroups on on its own either, but its a lot more "all in one" based than the vesuvius, the fact is that in a close combat situation, the vesuvius would be downed long before the midway would were it a 1 ship v battlegroup, at range, using fighters, the vesuvius does have a hell of a lot of firepower, but in cap-ship battles, it really does need a few destoryers dont it!, i wish i had the books so i knew about that chasing and also the hakaga stuff!

finally re the hakaga system, thanks, i guess thats a wc mystery then. and of course there has to be SOME maximum speed, due to the things you named, i didnt expect anyone to stress that but since u did, yeah i know that there are 3 real limits to its speed, limit with scoops, limit of structure and of course, speed of light, although wc's ftl stuff does kinda blow the last outta the water!

as for jump speeds, i always assumed the jump speed to be a simple matter of calculating the exact trajectory, the faster your going, the less time you have, the less accurate you are, that also fits the pilgrim line in quite nicely dont you think?

anyway, thanks for listenin to my thoughts, and helping with my flawed knowlege