What happened to Gorah Kar???

[Bandit LOAF]

I've never read the books, though I find it pretty disturbing post-war Confed is worried about killing so many civilians at Kilrah. Considering they nuked half of Earth and several of the inner planets, who gives a damn? They got what they deserved.

Wing Commander has always been, at its most basic, the Pacific War in space -- and this is just a logical extension of that theme... Americans to this day have mixed feelings about using the atomic bomb to end World War II.

 

[wankski]

oh man, thats so different, i get the idea tho..

but mixed feelings about the a-bomb has got to stem from the fact that the war was won militarily, japan was defeated, and it never used WMDs against the US. Even pearl harbour was against a legitimate military force.

Surely its an entirely different can of worms for this situatiuon, where an alien race tries to enslave humanity, and where it cant, will use bio-weapons and nukes to level planets. Not only that, its about to win, and using this bomb was humanity's last gasp effort to win the war, odds stacked against them as they were.

tho, to conceed, i have no doubt them damn civil libs will be present in the future, and every bit as petty. Leave it to them to turn a logical course of action into an extreme travesty of everything that is "right and good and stuff," in what is *ofcourse* a world (or galaxy) of moral and universal tenets that bind all things.

ok. spiel over, you're all safe now.

 

[McGruff]

Japan may have been defeated militarily, but they were not about to admit any such thing. A lot of people were actually saved on both sides by the dropping of the bombs when you take into account the lives that would have been lost during a conventional invasion of the home islands. Remember, these people were fanatics who actually believed that their emporer was a true living god and they were ready and willing to fight to the last for him.

If Japan's very real nuclear program had been farther along than it was and they had developed the bomb first, they wouldn't have had any moral reservations about using it on us. And then they would have enslaved humanity.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I think the two secret, war-ending bombing runs to drop morally debated "T-Bombs" is a pretty deliberate World War II parallel.

Remember that the Kilrathi didn't purposefully wipe out civilian targets until the very end of the war -- even the bombing on Earth was targetting the cities because they were part of the defense grid. Add to that the fact that many Kilrathi played up the idea that they were being lead into war by a corrupt regime -- and the fact that over three times as many Kilrathi died in the war as humans. The guilt isn't necessarily justified, but it's certainly reasonable that it exists.

 

[Mjr. Whoopass]

It would make a nice plot for a modder though, in case someone's interested...

Actually Chicken is working on a WC mod using HW2 (a game where you act as admiral of the fleet). Right now he's thinking of making a single player campaign where you control the forces of the Ghorah Khar rebels from the start, all the way through WC3. You can see the thread here: http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?p=256712

 

[Fruitcake]

Remember that the Kilrathi didn't purposefully wipe out civilian targets until the very end of the war

I'm sorry but you're wrong. I remember Goddard, Mylon VII (Hawk's world), which were heinously destroyed by the Kilrathi for no apparent reason at all. There are more, but these are without a doubt senseless acts of terrorism.
And during the truce: Gilead, Sirius Prime, Warsaw and almost Earth.

-- and the fact that over three times as many Kilrathi died in the war as humans. The guilt isn't necessarily justified, but it's certainly reasonable that it exists.

That was only after the destruction of Kilrah, wasn't it? I think the numbers were pretty evened out and before that, perhaps even more human then Kilrathi deaths due to the Kilrathi sneak attack.

 

[Edfilho]

That was only after the destruction of Kilrah, wasn't it? I think the numbers were pretty evened out and before that, perhaps even more human then Kilrathi deaths due to the Kilrathi sneak attack.

Not really. During the beggining of the war the kats employed number-over-quality tactics, with lots of suicidal attacks. Just read Action Stations AND the WCP official guide.

 

[Sarty]

I'm sorry but you're wrong. I remember Goddard, Mylon VII (Hawk's world), which were heinously destroyed by the Kilrathi for no apparent reason at all.

Goddard was destroyed to test/demonstrate their new weapon, without that objective they most likely would have siezed the colony rather than destroy it.

And during the truce: Gilead, Sirius Prime, Warsaw and almost Earth.

As LOAF said, the end of the war. all of those colonies were destroyed at the end of the war. Remeber that the war ends in the same year that the Battle of Earth took place in, 2669. It was at this point that the Kilrathi decided to obliterate everything, even the planets we live on, just to punish us.

 

[Fruitcake]

I don't think Locanda was an exception at the end of the war.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I'm sorry but you're wrong. I remember Goddard, Mylon VII (Hawk's world), which were heinously destroyed by the Kilrathi for no apparent reason at all. There are more, but these are without a doubt senseless acts of terrorism.
And during the truce: Gilead, Sirius Prime, Warsaw and almost Earth.

I disagree -- bombing a colony on the front is different from wiping out all life on a planet. It's part of the World War II analogue -- it was "morally" okay to bomb Berlin and kill untold numbers of civilians as long as you were trying to take out a tire factory.

(The attacks in Fleet Action and the biological attacks in Wing Commander III were in the last days of the war, and are the change in policy I was referring to in the initial post. Point of fact, though, the attacks on Warsaw et. al. were not not during the truce -- the Senate passed a declaration of war four hours after the Fourth Fleet of the Claw crossed the frontier.)

(Also: Hawk's planet was Mylon 2 -- you may be thinking of the planet where Iceman's family was killed/enslaved (Vega VII)).

I don't think Locanda was an exception at the end of the war.

Quoth Fleet Action: "There had been an unwritten and unspoken agreement between the two sides since the start of the war, that no matter how grim the conflict was, the deliberate destruction of life-bearing capability of a planet was beyond the limits. It had been in part a self-serving rule for both sides, for both sides hoped for ultimate victory and with it the worlds inhabited by their foes."

The idea, as stated by Jukaga in Fleet Action and Thrakhath in Heart of the Tiger, was that the Kilrathi were consciously shifting the way they were fighting the war to end it quickly.

 

[Bob McDob]

I wonder what happened to the rest of the Kilrathi rebels that wanted to join Confed - N’Tanya, K’arakh, and Shariha. I know the Prophecy map lists them as Kilrathi, but are they still connected to Confed somehow, joined Melek or some other postwar faction, became independent, or were reconquered in the last days of the war?

 

[Fruitcake]

I disagree -- bombing a colony on the front is different from wiping out all life on a planet. It's part of the World War II analogue -- it was "morally" okay to bomb Berlin and kill untold numbers of civilians as long as you were trying to take out a tire factory.

Can't argue with you there, although my perception of the Terran-Kilrathi conflict was always that neither side really cared about civilian losses inflicted upon the enemy.

(The attacks in Fleet Action and the biological attacks in Wing Commander III were in the last days of the war, and are the change in policy I was referring to in the initial post. Point of fact, though, the attacks on Warsaw et. al. were not not during the truce -- the Senate passed a declaration of war four hours after the Fourth Fleet of the Claw crossed the frontier.)

I do doubt the Kilrathi cared at all about a Confed Declaration of War. They wouldn't have halted their advance without it, would they?

(Also: Hawk's planet was Mylon 2 -- you may be thinking of the planet where Iceman's family was killed/enslaved (Vega VII)).

Thinking of both, actually, though I don't know what really happened to Vega VII, as Iceman only mentions it briefly in WC 1. About Mylon, I didn't remember the right planet in the system.

Quote Fleet Action: "for both sides hoped for ultimate victory and with it the worlds inhabited by their foes."

Strange quote, as I always got the impression Confed was fighting a purely defensive war, not to try and expand at the cost of Kilrathi.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Can't argue with you there, although my perception of the Terran-Kilrathi conflict was always that neither side really cared about civilian losses inflicted upon the enemy.

Yup, again, just like World War II. There were massive bombing raids that killed more civilians than the atomic bombs did -- their morality isn't debated because it was an ordinary way of fighting that both sides were familiar with.

I do doubt the Kilrathi cared at all about a Confed Declaration of War. They wouldn't have halted their advance without it, would they?

Nope, they wouldn't - there were no diplomatic ties between the Confederation and the Empire.

Thinking of both, actually, though I don't know what really happened to Vega VII, as Iceman only mentions it briefly in WC 1. About Mylon, I didn't remember the right planet in the system.

Mylon 2 - bombed by the Kilrathi, Mylon 3 - wiped out by the Olympus. Not a happy star system

Presumably Vega VII was invaded, as the Kilrathi took slaves (including Iceman's daughter... who'd be Casey's half sister in 2681.)

Strange quote, as I always got the impression Confed was fighting a purely defensive war, not to try and expand at the cost of Kilrathi.

Eh, as early as the original game you have characters talking about how it has to be a total war if the Kilrathi are going to be defeated -- heck, look at the Vega Campaign itself... it ended with Confed occupying *ever* star system in the sector, including many that were never settled by humans.

 

[Fruitcake]

Mylon 2 - bombed by the Kilrathi, Mylon 3 - wiped out by the Olympus. Not a happy star system

Presumably Vega VII was invaded, as the Kilrathi took slaves (including Iceman's daughter... who'd be Casey's half sister in 2681.)

The TCS Olympus? Could you fill me in on that? (just curious)

Eh, as early as the original game you have characters talking about how it has to be a total war if the Kilrathi are going to be defeated -- heck, look at the Vega Campaign itself... it ended with Confed occupying *every* star system in the sector, including many that were never settled by humans.

I never saw the victory in the Vega Sector as an absolute victory -- although the game says so, the Kilrathi would not have lasted until 2669 if they lost the Vega Sector in 2654. The destruction of their HQ couldn't have had such a dramatic impact, could it?
Seeing how victory and defeat were heavily depending on the skirmishes in the Rostov system, I make these conclusions: 1. Vega Sector has a lot of systems, but not a lot of important planets. 2. The Confederate victory wasn't a absolute one.

 

[Maj.Striker]

Yup, again, just like World War II. There were massive bombing raids that killed more civilians than the atomic bombs did -- their morality isn't debated because it was an ordinary way of fighting that both sides were familiar with.

Of sorts. At the beginning of WW2, bombing raids on cities was a foreign and rather appalling concept. It was during the war that a single German bomber accidentally got off course and dropped its load over London instead of a military airfield and killed a few civillians. England responded by bombing two German cities. Hitler ordered his air force to refrain from attacking English cities in response to the RAF's response, he assumed they would realize that the lone German bomber was an accident. When they continued their bombing raids on German cities, he ordered his bombers to raze the English cities to the ground. The war involving attacks on civilian occupied locations degenerated from there. It didn't initially start out as intentional or acceptable by either side.

 

[Edfilho]

But that doesn't contradict what LOAF said... it just contextualize it.

Vega should have been a great victory, just as enigma. But they needed the war to go on, so they magically geve the Kats the advantage again.

 

[Fruitcake]

But that doesn't contradict what LOAF said... it just contextualize it.

You're right. Just typing my thoughts in this thread.

 

[Death]

The TCS Olympus? Could you fill me in on that? (just curious)

A Concordia-class supercruiser (same class as the WCM Concordia) with a new Hopper jump drive that can be used in a gravity well (like a star system; Hopper drives are described in detail in the Terran Confederation Handbook) that's taken over by Pilgrims, mentioned at the tail end of the WCM novelization, and one of the major settings for the novel Pilgrim Stars.

 

[McGruff]

Of sorts. At the beginning of WW2, bombing raids on cities was a foreign and rather appalling concept. It was during the war that a single German bomber accidentally got off course and dropped its load over London instead of a military airfield and killed a few civillians. England responded by bombing two German cities. Hitler ordered his air force to refrain from attacking English cities in response to the RAF's response, he assumed they would realize that the lone German bomber was an accident. When they continued their bombing raids on German cities, he ordered his bombers to raze the English cities to the ground. The war involving attacks on civilian occupied locations degenerated from there. It didn't initially start out as intentional or acceptable by either side.

What about the submarine launched Japanese balloon-bomb that killed those folks in Oregon?

 

[TigerNobleHeart]

I've never read the books, though I find it pretty disturbing post-war Confed is worried about killing so many civilians at Kilrah. Considering they nuked half of Earth and several of the inner planets, who gives a damn? They got what they deserved.

Same goes for the Treaty of Torgo which the media names treaty of 'Kobar-Yagar' (I believe) - 'for the sake and dignity of the Kilrathi people'. Torgo was a Confed star system, that's just silly. Have the media and most politicians gone extremely stupid in the latter half of the 27th century?

.

Well, we have the same probem in this century; but at least we know that the more things change, the more they *do* stay the same.