WC4 Mod For Homeworld 2 In The Works (June 5, 2006)

[Wibby]

I had the exact same question ealier in this thread. Apparently, carriers won't attack other ships like other craft would; ships have to move into the carrier's range for them to fire.

I guess now my question is how will the vesuvius act?

 

[Iceblade]

Yeah, the St. Helens would probably be placed in more as a special unit (probably noncontrolable) in story-based campaign. Btw, how much story is there in HW2 and is there a way to create one?

 

[Bob McDob]

I'm going to be short here. I had my doubts about the graphics, but held off because we all know graphics aren't everything and in a lot of cases they aren't even anything; I was more concerned with how the other elements were coming together. I just saw the latest screenshots and, well, chalk graphics off the to-do list.

Now, the other stuff (I haven't had a chance to play the mod yet due to computer crashes and whatnot, so I'm going solely on what I've read in this thread.)

As LeHah noted, torpedoes are usually depicted as a lot less powerful in the novels and documentation than they are in the actual game; you can usually down even the most powerful capital ships with two or at most, three torpedoes. In Fleet Action the Concordia takes something like four hits during the Sol campaign and is still in something resembling fighting condition. You might want to base your survivability estimates on World War II records; the battlecruiser Repulse took around six torpedoes before she went down and the Yamato eighteen or so bombs and torpedoes.

There's also point-defense to consider; during the late phases of the Kilrathi War ships on both sides were equipped with gatling mass-drivers that seem to have acted as something of a CIWS system against incoming torpedoes. There's no record of this in any of the WCIV material, but it's something to consider. I'd imagine Confed would want to protect their investments - their peacetime investments - as well as possible; the Border Worlds probably don't have the luxury of doing that, so I'd imagine they'd rely rather more heavily on their fighter arm (or as suggested, a corvette - give those Ventures something worthwhile to do, and as noted earlier in this thread the UBW has a history of doing interesting things to their corvettes.)

Finally, there is a way to change the resolution to ones not listed - to anything you want, more or less, even widescreen formats or multiple monitors. It's a command line switch: -w xxxx -h xxxx. There's a list of other ones here: http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=16267

 

[Quarto]

You might want to base your survivability estimates on World War II records; the battlecruiser Repulse took around six torpedoes before she went down and the Yamato eighteen or so bombs and torpedoes.

But then again, some of the Japanese carriers at Midway were lost because of just one or two bombs, and in several other cases, American and Japanese ships of various classes were knocked out of action by one torpedo. The Yamato is very much the exception, not the rule.

the Border Worlds probably don't have the luxury of doing that, so I'd imagine they'd rely rather more heavily on their fighter arm

That's very doubtful - building and servicing a fighter would almost certainly be more costly than adding another turret onto a capship, especially since Milk Run shows that it's possible to add a turret (taken from another ship) in field conditions.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

As LeHah noted, torpedoes are usually depicted as a lot less powerful in the novels and documentation than they are in the actual game; you can usually down even the most powerful capital ships with two or at most, three torpedoes. In Fleet Action the Concordia takes something like four hits during the Sol campaign and is still in something resembling fighting condition. You might want to base your survivability estimates on World War II records; the battlecruiser Repulse took around six torpedoes before she went down and the Yamato eighteen or so bombs and torpedoes.

I think you're using this reference incorrectly in terms of Wing Commander, too. The reason we specifically hear about the Concordia taking so many hits and staying in the fight is because it's supposed to be particularly spectacular -- not because it's a good measure of the average.

 

[Sarty]

As LeHah noted, torpedoes are usually depicted as a lot less powerful in the novels and documentation than they are in the actual game; you can usually down even the most powerful capital ships with two or at most, three torpedoes. In Fleet Action the Concordia takes something like four hits during the Sol campaign and is still in something resembling fighting condition.

I think you're using this reference incorrectly in terms of Wing Commander, too. The reason we specifically hear about the Concordia taking so many hits and staying in the fight is because it's supposed to be particularly spectacular -- not because it's a good measure of the average.

I agree with LOAF that the Concordia was an exception, not the norm. The first bomber strike against the Hakaga carriers succesfully landed 6 torpedo hits on one of them at the same time, yet everyone was stunned that the ship wasn't destroyed, because they knew that that many torpedoes would have pulverized a standard fleet carrier. Torpedoes are definitely suppsed to do major damage to capships.

 

[Magnum]

I think Bob has a point. In the WC games, the cap ships have to go down with 2 torp hits, or you would never be able to beat them since you essentially have to do it yourself. That doesn't really work very well within an RTS framework, because cap ships that die in a matter of seconds aren't worth the time or resources put into them. I know we all want an experience as close to the original games as possible, but different games still require different balancing.

 

[BrynS]

@LeHah

If I'm understanding your concerns about the jump buoys correctly, you'd be happy if the jump buoys could be captured? Alternatively, perhaps if either player could use each other's buoys without restriction?

What are your views on resolving the jump lane connections? Some sort of time delay/countdown between linking different buoys or perhaps disabling relinking altogether, i.e. each buoy is only able to establish one connection with another buoy?

st helens isnt in because it would have be on confed's side (seeing as how confed is the force that deployed it against the vesuvius in wc4). however that would just make confed too strong. then issues of balance become huge between bw and confed. Black lance already have a deficiency in their fleet with the absence of cruisers, so the vesuvius makes up for that by being a battleship crossed with a carrier.

Aaron, I'm not sure if this is in response to my query about the Vesusius -- keeping the St Helens out of Confed's arsenal is fine, given the balance considerations. What I meant about the numbers is, will a player using the Black Lance faction only be able to build 1 Vesuvius at any one time in a match or could one end up churning out 3 or 4 if they have enough resources?

I suppose if it's appropriately priced relative to it's potential then placing a limit on construction might be unfair for the BL faction, as a player using the Confed or UBW faction could produce a number of Concordias, Durangos, Cruisers, etc to compete.

Cheers,

Bryn

 

[LeHah]

If I'm understanding your concerns about the jump buoys correctly, you'd be happy if the jump buoys could be captured? Alternatively, perhaps if either player could use each other's buoys without restriction?

In Wing Commander, the only way to own or control a jump point is by placing a force there to patrol the area. Even if Confed made the buoy, theres always a chance the Kilrathi would use it to come through.

Having player specific points (and then allowed to change their link to other buoys on a whim) kind of ruins the whole strategy behind where to place buoys, controlling the area, etc.

The "capturing" idea is pretty null and void if all players could use any jump point they came across.

What are your views on resolving the jump lane connections?

Buddy, I wish I had some. I don't know how Homeworld 2 works in terms of programming, so what I'm suggesting may not be possible. I'm just saying that player specific jump points doesn't really work.

Some sort of time delay/countdown between linking different buoys or perhaps disabling relinking altogether, i.e. each buoy is only able to establish one connection with another buoy?

Well, if you're going by how the majority of buoys work in WC - one point connects to one point and thats it. (Then again, the maps and jump points in Homeworld2 are within system, and not crossing large sectors of space or involving major gravitational fields - so maybe what I'm saying should be ignored.)

 

[Bandit LOAF]

To be clear, in Wing Commander a buoy is a *marker* -- it doesn't effect whether or not a jump point works.

 

[LeHah]

To be clear, in Wing Commander a buoy is a *marker* -- it doesn't effect whether or not a jump point works.

Thanks for chiming in on this thread, LOAF. I was going to ask you to because I don't think I'm getting my point across well enough. You're much better at explaining what does what when it comes to pretty much everything, ever.

I had actually thought that the buoy was somehow involved in activating the jump point - but I don't know why I thought that. In any case, that is the function they serve in HW2 and I don't think we can get around that really.

 

[Bob McDob]

I think you're using this reference incorrectly in terms of Wing Commander, too. The reason we specifically hear about the Concordia taking so many hits and staying in the fight is because it's supposed to be particularly spectacular -- not because it's a good measure of the average.

Yeah, the Concordia is definitely a special ship - certainly so plot-wise - but the impression I always got from Forstchen's depiction of her was that this was because she was particularly lucky, and not because of any intrinsic protective qualities. By looking at the WCII stats she's not particularly exceptional; her protection is about on par with a cruiser, if memory serves.

That said, I confess to stretching the facts here to make a point; if the Connie had taken as many direct hits in the same span of time as the Hakaga did during the Earth Campaign, then she'd very definitely have been dead. The fact that they were spread over a period of several days meant that repairs were able to be effected and the cumulative effect of so many strikes negated to some extent. Still, she was virtually dead in the water by the end of the battle.

But then again, some of the Japanese carriers at Midway were lost because of just one or two bombs, and in several other cases, American and Japanese ships of various classes were knocked out of action by one torpedo. The Yamato is very much the exception, not the rule.

Which is why they should be used as a baseline, and not as the holy writ. There's all sorts of real-life factors that the engine can't cover; things like weak points, systems disruption and such (actually the PDS mod has covered this to some extent, where your ship loses power with enough damage in a certain period, kind of like an EMP strike.) Still, Homeworld 2 is basically a slugging match where the more intricate and in many ways more crucial terms of battle don't come into play; given that, I think there can be some estimates made on the maximum and minimum amount of damage a given ship class can take.

I concede the bit on fighters, though I'm still fond of the corvette idea; they're a vastly neglected class with a history of providing crucial support (throwing out chaff at the Battle of Earth to cover the attacking bombers, for instance.)

What are your views on resolving the jump lane connections?

Buddy, I wish I had some. I don't know how Homeworld 2 works in terms of programming, so what I'm suggesting may not be possible. I'm just saying that player specific jump points doesn't really work.

Homeworld: Cataclysm had a very good way of dealing with this in the form of slipgates; fixed-point warp points that even look like jump points. As far as I know, nobody's been able to implement them in HW2, which is a real shame.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Yeah, the Concordia is definitely a special ship - certainly so plot-wise - but the impression I always got from Forstchen's depiction of her was that this was because she was particularly lucky, and not because of any intrinsic protective qualities. By looking at the WCII stats she's not particularly exceptional; her protection is about on par with a cruiser, if memory serves.

"It is" in my sentence refers to "Concordia taking so many hits", not simply "Concordia".

That is to say, the context in which we hear that the Concordia has taken four torpedo hits is 'wow, that's more than it should be able to', not that the Concordia is in some way specially designed for punishment (though, again, I think you're being somewhat disingenuous with your reference... while the Concordia comes between the two cruisers in terms of amount of armor, in the greater context of WC2 it is one of the few ships that has much, much, much more armor than any previous design.).

Re: jump points -- instead of using a buoy graphic, could one just replace the Homeworld graphic with a 3D image of an actual jump point? The blue sphere from Privateer, for instance?

 

[czacen]

Black Lance carrier. loaf does this ship have a class name? also are there any other ships that black lance have that arent in the game. i know they have black hellcats, but do they have any capships that arent in the game?

 

[czacen]

umm... where did everybody go? ive been thinking of designing my own ship to add to b-lance but before i do i wanted to know if there were any capships that were mentioned in the novels that could i re-create for the mod.

 

[LeHah]

Hey czacen, sorry about the wait - work has been hell.

That BL carrier looks amazing. It's been so long since I played WC4 that my memory of the later half is pretty hazy - but did you make that design yourself? Either way, kudos - it looks gorgeous.

As for BL ships that are in the novel and not in the game, Ill take another look through my WC4 novel to be sure - but the novel doesn't really paint the BL in the same way the game does. See, in the novel - its more of a conspiracy instead of a clandestine army with superships. Yes, they have Dragons/Lances and the Vesuvius - but they use Confed ships, for the most part.

However, I'm all for different ships for every faction. I'll let you know what I find.

 

[czacen]

to be honest i dont remember this ship in the game either, but this ship is definitely, an Origin design. all i had was a few texture maps and a low poly mesh that i used as a guide for scale, the ship in the game is a completely fresh model just like all the other ships. it does look pretty sharp if i do say so myself

 

[Bandit LOAF]

As for BL ships that are in the novel and not in the game, Ill take another look through my WC4 novel to be sure - but the novel doesn't really paint the BL in the same way the game does. See, in the novel - its more of a conspiracy instead of a clandestine army with superships. Yes, they have Dragons/Lances and the Vesuvius - but they use Confed ships, for the most part.

I don't think the game and the novel are any different in this respect. The idea that the Project is some kind of elite high-tech faction is entirely fanon. In the book as in the game they're a tiny splinter group that achieves its ends by using mercenaries and unwitting Confederation forces to do its dirty work.

That's the entire point of the first part of the game -- Blair and the Lexington pilots are working for Tolwyn without knowing it. You collect the scientist, capture the research labs and so forth because Tolwyn can't do it himself. Seether and company show up on the Lexington because there's no super-secret Black Lance fleet from which to test their fighters.

We see legitimate pirates at the start of the game who have been paid off by Tolwyn to conduct raids on the frontier... and later on we see mercenaries (Bean et al.) at Peleus and then Circe that Tolwyn has equipped with Confederation hardware to help start his war.

The fighter you're thinking of, though, is a special 'Black Hellcat' that Project engineers test on the Lexington at the start of the book. Think of it as being to the Hellcat what the Black Vampire is to the Vampire, for instance.

We see Project pilots fly Arrows (a special cloaking version), Hellcats and Lances -- as well as an Avenger, flown by Seether at one point.

We see pirates employed by Tolwyn fly Razors, Arrows and Thunderbolts.

We see mercenaries supplied by Tolwyn fly Hellcats, Bearcats, Longbows and Excaliburs.

As for capital ships, you know the obvious ones: the Jammer, the Fighter Transport, the shuttle, the Vesuvius, the Axius Starbase, the Cloaked Spacelab.

The pirates supplied by the Project also had a specially modified Caernaven frigate.

Oh -- the Black Lance Carrier. It's something that appears in Wing Commander IV's innards but is never used in a mission... that's where that model came from. There's no known class name for it.

 

[Iceblade]

What capship was the "evil" Blair captaining at the end of WC4? Was it a Vesivius?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

He was in Tolwyn's office, from the beginning of the game (Orion Station at L5).