WC3 Neutron Gun stats and possible errors

Bandit LOAF said:
Here's the internal gun data from the PC versions of WC3 and 4. WC4 uses the same stats for the shared guns and simly adds new versions where needed (at the end).

While it's tempting to say these are the 'real' stats, note that they don't actually inform us of too much. These are the values the game engine starts from but actual gameplay adds all sorts of modififers (hero bonus for the player, multiplyers depending on what texture you hit, modiiers based on difficulty, etc.)

Name: Ion Gun
Strength: 30
Speed: 1800
Lifetime: 2.500000
Refire Delay: 0.347656
Energy Use: 30

Name: Meson Gun
Strength: 35
Speed: 1800
Lifetime: 2.500000
Refire Delay: 0.398438
Energy Use: 16

Name: Neutron Gun
Strength: 52
Speed: 1400
Lifetime: 1.500000
Refire Delay: 0.398438
Energy Use: 30

Name: Particle Gun
Strength: 43
Speed: 2100
Lifetime: 2.000000
Refire Delay: 0.398438
Energy Use: 22

Name: Photon Gun
Strength: 32
Speed: 1800
Lifetime: 2.500000
Refire Delay: 0.449219
Energy Use: 30

Name: Plasma Gun
Strength: 67
Speed: 1200
Lifetime: 2.500000
Refire Delay: 0.500000
Energy Use: 44

Name: Reaper Gun
Strength: 35
Speed: 1800
Lifetime: 2.500000
Refire Delay: 0.226562
Energy Use: 35

Name: Laser
Strength: 18
Speed: 2000
Lifetime: 2.500000
Refire Delay: 0.250000
Energy Use: 10

Name: Tachyon Gun
Strength: 70
Speed: 1600
Lifetime: 2.000000
Refire Delay: 0.347656
Energy Use: 40

WC4

Name: Ion Gun (HEAVY)
Strength: 60
Speed: 1800
Lifetime: 2.500000
Refire Delay: 0.347656
Energy Use: 30

Name: Mass Driver
Strength: 45
Speed: 1000
Lifetime: 2.000000
Refire Delay: 0.296875
Energy Use: 12

Name: Mass Driver (HEAVY)
Strength: 60
Speed: 1200
Lifetime: 2.500000
Refire Delay: 0.449219
Energy Use: 30

Name: Photon Gun (HEAVY)
Strength: 64
Speed: 1200
Lifetime: 2.500000
Refire Delay: 0.449219
Energy Use: 30

Name: Tachyon Gun (LIGHT)
Strength: 50
Speed: 1600
Lifetime: 2.000000
Refire Delay: 0.347656
Energy Use: 40
Click to expand...
At last!!!! Thanks @Bandit LOAF and probably @ODVS and @Pedro and whomever else is working on the WC4 remake.

Dissappointed by the light tachyon cannons! It uses the same energy as the standard! This needs to be fixed in the WC4 remake! The Mass Driver is OP! Change this too. No info on weapon ranges though?
 
YCDTD said:
At last!!!! Thanks @Bandit LOAF and probably @ODVS and @Pedro and whomever else is working on the WC4 remake.

Dissappointed by the light tachyon cannons! It uses the same energy as the standard! This needs to be fixed in the WC4 remake! The Mass Driver is OP! Change this too. No info on weapon ranges though?
Click to expand...

Range would be lifetime * speed.

I don’t know that anything necessarily needs to be changed in an update... remember that these numbers are the result of a professional QA team hacking away at balance for several months.... the game hides these kinds of numbers for a reason!
 
Also, did
Bandit LOAF said:
Range would be lifetime * speed.

I don’t know that anything necessarily needs to be changed in an update... remember that these numbers are the result of a professional QA team hacking away at balance for several months.... the game hides these kinds of numbers for a reason!
Click to expand...
Right, but from an "in-universe" perspective some of the weapon loadouts don't make sense. And I am a huge nerd in trying to make game balance match with in-universe lore! 😁

Any info on the turreted weapons? The Longbow's particle cannon seemed to have a very high rate of fire. Also, do turrets have an unlimited energy pool separate from the main guns?
 
Correct weapons stats and a promotion to Commodore all on the same day! Sweeeeeeet. :cool:

The particle cannon is not such a huge improvement over the neutron gun after all. Better range and bolt velocity are nice though. The in-universe explanation would probably be that it is a variation of the neutron gun designed for use against light and medium fighters rather then bombers and capships. Also would help light and medium fighters stay out of range of bomber turrets. So having the neutron gun on the Longbow makes tactical sense. On the Hellcat? Not so much.
 
This leading me down a rabbit hole. I now am wondering about all the other stats in the manuals vs. actual game. It looks like ship speed is at least accurate.

If these games ever are remade I want gun loadouts that make sense and not just designed for game balance. I mean, why not just give the Arrow four laser cannons when the ion cannon is so inefficient? WHY ARE ION CANNONS USED AT ALL!!!!! 😵

Well, the Heavy Ion is pretty good. :)
 
Right, but from an "in-universe" perspective some of the weapon loadouts don't make sense. And I am a huge nerd in trying to make game balance match with in-universe lore! 😁
Click to expand...

The thing to understand is that it grew into how it is the other way -- the stats the guys doing the manuals got (at a set point in development) drove the gun descriptions they wrote. The real way to 'fix' this would be to go back and rewrite the Victory Streak entries to match how the guns fell in the end. Otherwise you'll end up with a game that's not playable for the sake of matching a description it already intentionally moved away from.

Any info on the turreted weapons? The Longbow's particle cannon seemed to have a very high rate of fire. Also, do turrets have an unlimited energy pool separate from the main guns?
Click to expand...

I believe the turret guns are the same base data applied to a system that functions diferently... so the turret mechanics alter them differently than the fixed guns do.

If these games ever are remade I want gun loadouts that make sense and not just designed for game balance. I mean, why not just give the Arrow four laser cannons when the ion cannon is so inefficient? WHY ARE ION CANNONS USED AT ALL!!!!!
Click to expand...

I think that's the kind of thing you solve with new lore... maybe ion cannons are much cheaper or easier to maintain than lasers... or the consortium that makes them holds some swy over the Confederation weapons procurement process! :)

@Bandit LOAF Umm...you mentioned multipliers against textures. So do some weapons get bonus damage against shields or engines etc.?
Click to expand...

That's right, that's in the final build for capships. I believe they wanted to give similar modifiers for fighters but they didn't balance out correctly (testers were scoring too many pilot kills).
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I think that's the kind of thing you solve with new lore... maybe ion cannons are much cheaper or easier to maintain than lasers... or the consortium that makes them holds some swy over the Confederation weapons procurement process! :)
Click to expand...
It was because of all the losses at The Battle of Earth. ;)
 
@Bandit LOAF Would it be too much to ask @ODVS and @Pedro to rip the fighter info too? 😬

I would not mind starting an updated file for players/fans (both new and old) with the actual stats that perhaps I could upload to the site one day soon(ish). Or work on the wiki?
 
Sounds good! Create a new line for each different source... so one for the in-engine values of the laser and one for the Victory Streak stats (and another for Kilrathi Saga if that's different, etc.)

I've added the Privteer and Armada manual data, will keep chipping away.
 
@Bandit LOAF Finished adding the data from the WC3/4 game files that you provided. Moving on to the WC4 official guide and then the WC bible as bundled with GOG WC4 :)
 
Nicely done! I've just done a cleanup pass aimed at improving sorting. That part is mostly self-explanatory but a few notes:

- Text in dark red means it's not visible to the player. I'm thinking if we have any 'derived' data we mark it in green.
- Let's list the name of each gun as whatever it is in that particlular source, which will let us track how Meson Blasters become Meson Cannons from place to place.

Will continue to add some more sources today,
 
Hacked away some more! I've added the special weapons from WC4 (in engine and official guide data) plus Privateer 2 (manuals and guide) and Arena (in-game and manual). I've identified what's missing from the WC3/4 stats that Pedro sent and let him know.

Starting to make a rough list of what still has to be added to this sheet:

- In-game data for Armada, Privateer, Privateer 2, Prophecy, Secret Ops
- Any anomalies from console ports (WC3 Neutron Gun for instance)
- Remaining WC3/4 in-game guns.
- Manual and guide data for Prophecy and Secret Ops.
- The bible data you mentioned, which will be a nice "WC3 in October 1994" comparison

We've come a long way fast!
 
Missing turrets from WC3 and 4 are in! Along with the fantastic discovery that the yellow guns on the Vesuvus are NOT AMGs but *heavy lasers* which squares with the assosciated cutscene...
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Missing turrets from WC3 and 4 are in! Along with the fantastic discovery that the yellow guns on the Vesuvus are NOT AMGs but *heavy lasers* which squares with the assosciated cutscene...
Click to expand...
Interesting indeed. But slow down and leave some data input for me will you? :)
 
Hmmm, no info on refire delay in the WC2 engine data, eh? I remember the mass drivers as having quite a high rate of fire. Might have to check out some youtube clips.
 
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Well this is serendipitous, for the first time in nearly 3 years, I'm in the same place as all my manuals and I find out from this spreadsheet that the US and UK privateer 2 manuals are different...
 
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