Tooth and Claw- - Chapter Two: Getting Well Acquainted...

[Dralthi5]

Wow-- my story serving as a springboard for this type of conversation.

Earthworm:
" IFF transponder reads him as the Karga, Lord Captain," the Communications Officer reported. " Imperial carrier of the Bhantkara class..."

I guess you're right. I didn't know the Bhanktara was a supercarrier-- you learn something new everyday.

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Earthworm]

So when a new book contridicts with an old one, no matter how much sense the new one makes, the old one is right? I believe that would depend on the situiation. Therefore, that isn't a good rule to live by.

Technicly it would depend on the situationl. But if a book that came out in 94 would say that Blair was a master in step dancing, that he posed in Playboy at age 10, and that he played the main character in a cheap remake of that 20th century classic Star Wars, because of the unnatural resemblance to the main character, and than a book from 98 said that was all BS because Chris Blair was a model Confederation officer, the older book would be right.

D5, technicly there is no such thing as a supper carrier. It seems the writers exagurated a little, the Bhantkara is a heavy carrier.


[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited March 11, 2000).]

 

[Dralthi5]

Supper carrier?

" If you like good fun, good food, and a mobile platform for launching and landing complex planes of war, then come on down to the supper carrier. Remember, kids eat free!"

------------------
If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Earthworm]

LOL!

 

[Fireball SC]

Supper carrier?

" If you like good fun, good food, and a mobile platform for launching and landing complex planes of war, then come on down to the supper carrier. Remember, kids eat free!"

Good one

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Member of the LMG, and hating it. (Disgruntled Man)
Proud member: Wing Commander Space Command; Union of Border Worlds 5th Fleet; Black Lance Command
Striking a man down with your blade is clean and honorable. Shooting him in the back from the darkness of an alley and hurrying to blame it on another was something else altogether.--Darth Vader

 

[Quarto]

But the Kilrathi look different in every product we see them in. Just look at the changes of Melek from WC3 to WC4.

Not really. Melek in WC 4 is more detailed, but there are no major changes. He's still just as furry as before. And in both cases, the Kilrathi still look like they did in WC 1 and 2, though again with less detail. Even the Academy cartoon had the Kilrathi look just like they did in the games. So only the movie stands out.

Isn't that basicly what happened between WC2 and WC3? SO2 ended in 2667, so there's only two years in between the two games.

I'm a bit sceptical about how they did that, too. But anyway, it has been said that the ships in WC3 were actually all rather ancient, with a quick upgrade to bring them up to par. And the Victory was quite old too. As for the Kilrathi, the total change is understandable, since they'd the advantage, and their fleet was damaged enough to call for total change.

You're forgeting that we never saw Blairs court martial. The talk between Blair and Tolwyn in the WC2 intro was basicly to let us know about Blairs next *assignment*.

No, we didn't. But we read about it.

Not necisarly. Tolwyn is a patriot, he lives and fights for the Confederation. He wouldn't belive Blair after one of the largest carriers in Confed was destroyed.

So every time a carrier goes down, the survivors are court-martialled?

OK, this is just a mear speculation.

Yes it was

. And frankly, that is even more impossible then him being caught by the Kilrathi and then released unharmed

. One does not need any medical equipment to tell if a person is dead, btw. And radiation damage is not something anybody recovers from; it's permanent.

We're never told in WC3 that Skippers or a previous model of a Skipper didn't exist before.

But we are told that the Kilrathi are testing a new missile, not a new variant of a missile.

Let's say that the cloacking device is to big to slap on a fighter.

Neither a capship missile nor a torpedo is bigger than a fighter. So it would be ridiculous to assume that.

Tolwyn doesen' belive that fighters have cloacks because the cloacking device is to big

Again, the above.

Also, maybe Confed found something to detect cloacked ships and that made the Kilrathi cloacks useless. But the Kilrathi quickly made a new type of a cloack that was undetectable.

And Confed being certain of their technological superiority, they decided that from now on, it is impossible for the Kilrathi to develop a new cloak, and therefore all rumours of such a device should be dismissed

.

But that wasn't a cloacking fighter.

Yes it was. The black paintjob helped, but mostly it was invisible due to cloaking. Watch the cartoon again.

Besides, Tolwyn didn't have a choice but to belive it.

So the next time somebody mentions stealth fighters, Tolwyn refuses to believe because he has a choice and still finds the whole notion ridiculous, despite the fact that he saw a stealth fighter himself?

If a new book contradicts with an older one, than it's obvious that the older one is right.

<Grin> And so we can forget about the Pilgrims, because the movie and new books definitely contradict the old stuff

.

and than a book from 98 said that was all BS because Chris Blair was a model Confederation officer, the older book would be right.

But sometimes viewpoints change 180 degrees after new evidence is reviewed.

 

[Earthworm]

Fireball, so you're a member of the UBW, and the BL? Hm, there seems to be something wrong with that....

 

[Earthworm]

Damn you Quarto! Why do you make me read so much!?

Not really. Melek in WC 4 is more detailed, but there are no major changes. He's still just as furry as before. And in both cases, the Kilrathi still look like they did in WC 1 and 2, though again with less detail. Even the Academy cartoon had the Kilrathi look just like they did in the games. So only the movie stands out.

Sure they do. Meleks only similarity with the WC3 Melek is that he's fury. And the Kilrathi changed from WC2 to WC3 also a lot.

I'm a bit sceptical about how they did that, too. But anyway, it has been said that the ships in WC3 were actually all rather ancient, with a quick upgrade to bring them up to par. And the Victory was quite old too. As for the Kilrathi, the total change is understandable, since they'd the advantage, and their fleet was damaged enough to call for total change.

True, the Ranger class was designed before the war. The Tallahassee and the destroyers are also old, hovever we didn't see them before. The ships in the movie may be new because of the same reason as the WC3 ships.

So every time a carrier goes down, the survivors are court-martialled?

Of course they're not. But Blairs case was strange to say the least. His flight recorder was missing, the fighters did come from the direction of his patrol.

Yes it was

. And frankly, that is even more impossible then him being caught by the Kilrathi and then released unharmed

. One does not need any medical equipment to tell if a person is dead, btw. And radiation damage is not something anybody recovers from; it's permanent.

Realy? I though that if you do take same radiation you can still be *cleaned up*. Anyhow, that's just my example, I'm not realy creative (I always get low grades on writing assignments), but I'm sure Telep could find a possible way to bring him back. Let's just wait for the novel, and than we'll see. (and even if Telep doesen't bring Bossman back, I'll still tell you that he did

)

But we are told that the Kilrathi are testing a new missile, not a new variant of a missile.

Because it could be a new missile with the same name.

Neither a capship missile nor a torpedo is bigger than a fighter. So it would be ridiculous to assume that.

But we're not told the lenght of the Skipper from the movie. It looks like it could be at least as big as the Rapier. Besides, if the fighter is bigger it would require a bigger cloack. The Skipper has propulsion, guidence, and the warhead on it. The fither has propultion, more fuel than a missile, missiles or rockets, guns, and of course the pilot.

And Confed being certain of their technological superiority, they decided that from now on, it is impossible for the Kilrathi to develop a new cloak, and therefore all rumours of such a device should be dismissed

.

Now, but the Claw was destroyed two years after the movie. Two years isn't realy that much time when it comes to develping new technology, or improving the older one. Confed simply didn't think the cats could make the new cloack so quickly.

Yes it was. The black paintjob helped, but mostly it was invisible due to cloaking. Watch the cartoon again.

No, it was stealth, but it didn't have a cloacking device like the WC2/WC3 Strakha. Besides, I don't realy fell like downloading that again. At least not for know, after loosing my HD.

So the next time somebody mentions stealth fighters, Tolwyn refuses to believe because he has a choice and still finds the whole notion ridiculous, despite the fact that he saw a stealth fighter himself?

Tolwyn is a complex man. Maybe he wanted Blair thrown out of the space forces. Maybe the whole T-K war was just a conspiracy to kill Blair.

<Grin> And so we can forget about the Pilgrims, because the movie and new books definitely contradict the old stuff

.

Of course we don't.

The existance of the Pilgrims doesen't contradict the old stuff.

 

[Quarto]

Damn you Quarto! Why do you make me read so much!?

It's for your own good

.

Sure they do. Meleks only similarity with the WC3 Melek is that he's fury. And the Kilrathi changed from WC2 to WC3 also a lot.

Nope. They were simplified in WC3, because of the switch from bitmaps to 3D (

), but one could still tell that they were the same old Felines. And in WC4, Melek was simply more detailed, with little hairs and whiskers all over his face. But he still looked like the same old Feline. But the movie Kilrathi... why, they must be related to the hideous, hairless Egyptian cats.

The ships in the movie may be new because of the same reason as the WC3 ships.

But then both sides introduce whole new fleets of brand new ships? And by some coincidence, Blair is transferred to a new carrier with the same (well, almost the same) name?

Of course they're not. But Blairs case was strange to say the least. His flight recorder was missing, the fighters did come from the direction of his patrol.

But he also had a very good reputation; especially if the two are combined, since that would imply that he not only saved Earth from destruction, but also was the Hero Of Vega Sector, and was responsible for the destruction of the Sivar. Surely, of all people, he could be trusted then?

Realy? I though that if you do take same radiation you can still be *cleaned up*.

Nope, sorry. Radiation affects the DNA, and Humans aren't very good at messing with that (in the future, they might be; but the breakdown of cells following a large dose of radiation is just too rapid; even if he somehow survived, he'd probably stay on life support for the rest of his life; not to forget the brain damage).

Let's just wait for the novel, and than we'll see. (and even if Telep doesen't bring Bossman back, I'll still tell you that he did)

I won't believe you, for the very simple reason that Telep won't bring Bossman back

. Making the two universes fit into one is not a priority as far as he's concerned.

Because it could be a new missile with the same name.

I'm not even going to start on that one...

Besides, if the fighter is bigger it would require a bigger cloak.

Usually, the problem is with miniaturisation, not with making it bigger. Anyway, fighter cloaks would be a natural extension of the cloaking missile technology, and any Confed Admiral who would ignore that possibility would himself be court-martialled for treason/blatant stupidity. Speaking of which, exactly why is it that in the movie, Tolwyn is an Admiral in charge of the entire Fleet, and then (in Academy) he suddenly becomes a Commodore, and finally a mere Rear Admiral (WC1 and onwards)? Did he go through some other court-martial that we hadn't heard of? And while we're at it, whyever did Angel lose her job as squadron commander

? And finally, why didn't Hunter have a cigar?

Two years isn't realy that much time when it comes to develping new technology, or improving the older one.

As I recall, it took three years to develop the nuclear bomb into the hydrogen bomb; that's a vast improvement. And it only took the Germans two or less years to develop the V-1 into the V-2 - and that was a huge leap. And need I mention the sudden expansion of jet-engine technology following WWII? Or the Apollo program, which developed a revolutionary new type of spacecraft within a mere nine years?

Confed simply didn't think the cats could make the new cloack so quickly.

But then, here's Blair, the great hero, who says that he saw a stealth fighter. Wouldn't that make them change their minds?

No, it was stealth, but it didn't have a cloacking device like the WC2/WC3 Strakha.

It did.

Maybe the whole T-K war was just a conspiracy to kill Blair.

Please, don't be ridiculous. If you've run out of proper arguments, then perhaps you should just admit I'm right

.

Of course we don't. The existance of the Pilgrims doesen't contradict the old stuff.

Except perhaps half the known WC universe facts

. Paladin's parents were born in Scotland; they couldn't be Pilgrims. Blair was implied to have come from Earth, and certainly not Nephele. Remember the discussion about his farm in the SO fiction? You'd think they would have mentioned that he was born on Nephele

.

 

[Dralthi5]

Good one

Going out on a high note:
" Good night, everybody!"

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

[This message has been edited by Dralthi5 (edited March 12, 2000).]

 

[Earthworm]

Let's just wait for the novel, and than we'll see. (and even if Telep doesen't bring Bossman back, I'll still tell you that he did).
I won't believe you, for the very simple reason that Telep won't bring Bossman back

. Making the two universes fit into one is not a priority as far as he's concerned.

Actualy, if you have read the movie novels you would see how nicely Telep makes it fit.

No, it was stealth, but it didn't have a cloacking device like the WC2/WC3 Strakha.
It did.

No it didn't.

There are no cloacking devices on the Strakha from Academy. It's black, and build from a stealth material, but it can't cloack.

Maybe the whole T-K war was just a conspiracy to kill Blair.
Please, don't be ridiculous. If you've run out of proper arguments, then perhaps you should just admit I'm right

.

NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course we don't. The existance of the Pilgrims doesen't contradict the old stuff.
Except perhaps half the known WC universe facts

.

WOW, where did you get such a high number?

Paladin's parents were born in Scotland; they couldn't be Pilgrims.

AFAIK his parents were born on a space station in orbit of Neptun or some other planet in Sol. And that isn't from the movie or any of the novels either.

Blair was implied to have come from Earth, and certainly not Nephele.

No it wasn't. There is no mention of him coming from Earth.

 

[Quarto]

Actualy, if you have read the movie novels you would see how nicely Telep makes it fit.

NEVER!!!!!!
Hehehe

.

No it didn't. There are no cloacking devices on the Strakha from Academy. It's black, and build from a stealth material, but it can't cloack.

Damn. I was going to check, but as was to be expected, Win98 decided to be a pain. It produced some stupid error and refuses to run RealPlayer. I'll check later, once I restart my computer.

WOW, where did you get such a high number?

A rough estimate

. Maybe a bit on the low side though

.

AFAIK his parents were born on a space station in orbit of Neptun or some other planet in Sol. And that isn't from the movie or any of the novels either.

Quoted straight from the KSaga manual (and this is no mistake, it was like this in the original WC 1 manual too):
"Taggart, 45, is a native of Ares, the [...] space station built in permanent orbit around [...] Venus; his parents were terraforming engineers from Wick, Scotland."
See? Not only were they from Scotland, it actually also gives us the name of their home town. So the movie is wrong. So there.

No it wasn't. There is no mention of him coming from Earth.

No, but it was implied several hundred times, which I'm too lazy to list. Like I said though, if he was from Nephele, then why were people unhappy with the Nephelian Governor's decision to have the Blair Museum there? This decision was questioned due to the small amount of time he spent there - but had he been born there, no argument would have been possible.

It seems to me that you're losing, Earthworm. Come to the dark side! Come, admit I'm right, and we shall rule together...
<smack> Sorry. My dark side tries to take over sometimes.

 

[Earthworm]

No it didn't. There are no cloacking devices on the Strakha from Academy. It's black, and build from a stealth material, but it can't cloack.
Damn. I was going to check, but as was to be expected, Win98 decided to be a pain. It produced some stupid error and refuses to run RealPlayer. I'll check later, once I restart my computer.

Sure Quarto.

Whatever you say.

AFAIK his parents were born on a space station in orbit of Neptun or some other planet in Sol. And that isn't from the movie or any of the novels either.
Quoted straight from the KSaga manual (and this is no mistake, it was like this in the original WC 1 manual too):
"Taggart, 45, is a native of Ares, the [...] space station built in permanent orbit around [...] Venus; his parents were terraforming engineers from Wick, Scotland."
See? Not only were they from Scotland, it actually also gives us the name of their home town. So the movie is wrong. So there.

No, it isn't wrong. So his parents aren't from the space station, but he is. Humans started to develop those Pilgrim powers because they lived close to the center something on spacestations. So even if his parents weren't Pilgrims Paladin still could be one. Besides, who says the parents of his parents weren't Pilgrims?

Like I said though, if he was from Nephele, then why were people unhappy with the Nephelian Governor's decision to have the Blair Museum there? This decision was questioned due to the small amount of time he spent there - but had he been born there, no argument would have been possible.

What? That made absoulutly no sense.

I don't remember the SO fiction since I read it only once, so I can't comment on that.

It seems to me that you're losing, Earthworm. Come to the dark side! Come, admit I'm right, and we shall rule together...
<smack> Sorry. My dark side tries to take over sometimes.

No! No, you're not my father! Obi Tolwyn Kenobi told my you killed him! Now, you go to hell, you go to hell and you die! (jk, even though it's prety obvious that I am)

 

[Quarto]

Sure Quarto. Whatever you say.

Foolish mortal, I was quite serious

. Anyway, I've checked it now; unfortunately, there is nothing to indicate either way.

Humans started developing Pilgrim powers after living in space for several generations. Paladin was the first generation. As for his parents... that's another one of those silly arguments that can't be proven either way, but we both know that it's senseless.

What? That made absoulutly no sense. I don't remember the SO fiction since I read it only once, so I can't comment on that.

Fair 'nuff. Gimme a sec, I'll just go and fetch it

.

Still searching...

Still searching...

Finally. It was hidden in episode 3. Quote:

"Some criticism has been leveled against the council of Nephele in regards to the appropriateness of a Commodore Blair memorial on their world. Blair only spent a short time on the world between the end of the Kilrathi war and the Border World/Black Lance conflict he also helped resolve."
[...]
""Even though his time on Nephele was brief, this was the world he turned to when he wanted a home.""

As you can see, nobody said anything about him being born there. And don't even think about saying "nobody said anything about him not being born there"

. Had he been born there, they would've mentioned it.

No! No, you're not my father! Obi Tolwyn Kenobi told my you killed him! Now, you go to hell, you go to hell and you die!

Ah, that fool... he always messes things up for me. Don't listen to him. He's just jealous, for I have power!

Come to the Dark Side, and I will spare your worthless hide!

 

[Earthworm]

Fair 'nuff. Gimme a sec, I'll just go and fetch it

.

Still searching...

Still searching...

Finally. It was hidden in episode 3. Quote:

"Some criticism has been leveled against the council of Nephele in regards to the appropriateness of a Commodore Blair memorial on their world. Blair only spent a short time on the world between the end of the Kilrathi war and the Border World/Black Lance conflict he also helped resolve."
[...]
""Even though his time on Nephele was brief, this was the world he turned to when he wanted a home.""

As you can see, nobody said anything about him being born there. And don't even think about saying "nobody said anything about him not being born there"

. Had he been born there, they would've mentioned it.

IIRC, it is mentioned in one of the books, either HOTT or TPOF that Blair is from Nephele. I’ll try to find it when I get home.

Ah, that fool... he always messes things up for me. Don't listen to him. He's just jealous, for I have power!

Come to the Dark Side, and I will spare your worthless hide!

How dare you! I won’t let you insult my lord. Get to your fighter and we’ll setle it like honorable warriors.

 

[Matrix]

As interesting as it may be, I refuse to read a post this size until somebody resets the board to post in the order it used to. Who reversed the damn thing anyway?

 

[Earthworm]

IMO, it's better than it used to be.

If you want to blame someone, Kris V reversed the order.

 

[Quarto]

IIRC, it is mentioned in one of the books, either HOTT or TPOF that Blair is from Nephele. I’ll try to find it when I get home.

Sure you will

.

How dare you! I won’t let you insult my lord. Get to your fighter and we’ll setle it like honorable warriors.

Anytime... human. The Dark Side will aid me to victory... as will My Lord Thrakhath.

Matrix: It's really annoying at first, but once you get used to it, it's great. You can stop loading a thread half-way through and still get all the new posts. Admittedly, you have to do quite a bit of scrolling back and forth when reading longer posts, but The Price of Convenience is Eternal Scrolling

.

 

[Earthworm]

Sure you will

.

I just did.

It's definetly in TPOF.

Anytime... human. The Dark Side will aid me to victory... as will My Lord Thrakhath.

First you insult my lord, and now me?!?!?!?! How dare you call me a human? I am an Earthworm. I'll rip you to shreads when we'll fight.

The Price of Convenience is Eternal Scrolling

.

LOL

 

[Quarto]

I just did. It's definetly in TPOF.

Maybe that's because he lived on Nephele before TPOF? Gimme a quote.

First you insult my lord, and now me?!?!?!?! How dare you call me a human? I am an Earthworm. I'll rip you to shreads when we'll fight.

Oh, now I'm really scared... what're you gonna do, squirm me to death

? Hah. You earthworms are worthless scum. I'd be willing to change my mind about that though, if you join the Dark Side...