Terminator Salvation - Spoilers eventually...

[Frosty]

I'm not pretending he's superhuman. His mother endured at least as much at the hands of Skynet's agents, why not John?

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

I just saw it yesterday and was a bit disappointed. As a movie it's entertaining but somehow I found the future it showed to be too different than the future we saw in the other movies. I can understand it because after T2 the future was changed, I just don't like it as much.
What bothered me mostly was that Skynet didn't act very clever or computer-like I found. That dumb speech it gave to Marcus. The Skynet HQ seemed awfully undermanned (so to say). And as much as I liked Arnold's little appearance, if you finally have a good chance to kill your number one enemy (or number two according to the list), shouldn't you give your Terminator a gun?

 

[Mace]

She repairs her left arm at one point and you can pretty much see everything that arm is made of.

In season's finale, when John travels even further in the future you see her, still as -appearantly- human, since she hangs around with a dog, and Kyle and Derek Reese, and in an earlier episode she loses her memory and thinks she is human and has memories of that past. Also, she is a lot shorter and smaller in stature then the other terminators, but at least as durable. She might be a converted human herself.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

That's not Cameron, it's Allison from Palmdale... there's a season two episode that introduces her.

 

[Frosty]

I just saw it yesterday and was a bit disappointed. As a movie it's entertaining but somehow I found the future it showed to be too different than the future we saw in the other movies. I can understand it because after T2 the future was changed, I just don't like it as much.

It takes place something like a decade before any of that other stuff you see in the beginnings of the other movies. Let me repeat this for everyone whining about HKs and shit: It takes place something like a decade before any of that other stuff you see in the beginnings of the other movies.

computer-like

I'm not going to touch this, but everyone should laugh at you.

Anyway, was that even Skynet or merely some tentacle or subservient program?

The Skynet HQ seemed awfully undermanned (so to say).

Skynet is having a lot of trouble putting metal in the field at this early stage. The ultimate complement of machines for that particular installation might have been far more comprehensive several years down the road if it hadn't been destroyed.

And as much as I liked Arnold's little appearance, if you finally have a good chance to kill your number one enemy (or number two according to the list), shouldn't you give your Terminator a gun?

Skynet has a well-documented history of making cocky decisions that don't pan out, though. In the first movie don't they say that the casualties from the original 1997 attack are "over a billion?" That's a pretty huge remaining population of insanely angry people with guns to have hunting you down after you've just played your baddest hand.

Skynet obvious over-estimates itself habitually. Sure, the 800-101 that chases John around in the end of the movie probably should have had a gun or a knife or something, but all that proves is that we're more cautious than Skynet is, for recognizing that.

 

[LeHah]

It takes place something like a decade before any of that other stuff you see in the beginnings of the other movies.

The fact that the Resistance went from having fairly nice A10s to junkyard jeeps is something I cannot wait to see.

Sure, the 800-101 that chases John around in the end of the movie probably should have had a gun or a knife or something, but all that proves is that we're more cautious than Skynet is, for recognizing that.

Not to mention, the 800-101 in Salvation is the first one seen in the series. The rest have been sent from further down the timeline. To be perfectly honest, I'm sure most people would die being attacked by a giant metal death matchine, armed or not.

 

[Darkmage]

The murderer plot was reasonably well handled. It's obvious that the guy was not evil he'd just done an evil thing in his past and had come to regret it and was seeking redemption. The fact that he had no idea when he woke up that he had become a man/machine abomination was ok. The things I wanted to see were the liquid metal terminators and more laser pulse cannon terminator skeletons but that's ok since it's the first in a series of movies.

I think they're planning to slowly build towards the classic Terminator future where there's lots of pulse lasers and metallic terminators walking around. I like the references to Terminator 3 that were in there, like the original T-1 series terminators in one of the scenes.

I had no problems with the movie other than the whole "I need a heart/ooh take mine" plot was very cliche'd and kind of hurt to sit through. The movie works as an action movie lots of imagery, stuff exploding, and it made sense.

I think a few things like skynet's future knowledge can be had from the fact that the Terminator in 3 informed skynet of some future events so skynet was aware of things which would be problematic for it.

I liked the cyberdyne connection and the assembly line with the terminators. I think it makes sense that cyberdyne had factories setup for making humans near immortal with cybog tech and that skynet then coopted those facilities to create robotic death machines that resemble humans. It's a bit of a cleaner explanation for where the terminators came from than we've previously had. One of the problems with the Terminator design has been wtf would they look human when a UAV with a missiles/bomb would be more effective. I think this explains it very nicely. The facility was there so skynet used it.

I'm looking forward to seeing Kyle Reese get sent back through time and to see what the final victory looks like. Will it be matrix style peace? or complete annihilation of the machines?

At the end of the day it had explosions and stuff so it was cool. I'd like to see Catherine get into the fighting more in the upcoming movies. I think it'd also be cool if the human resistance starts to enhance their soldiers with robotics after marcus.

 

[Frosty]

The murderer plot was reasonably well handled. It's obvious that the guy was not evil he'd just done an evil thing in his past and had come to regret it and was seeking redemption.

Eh... I don't think he was "seeking redemption." His conversation with Dr. Kogan shows that he wasn't interested.

The fact that he had no idea when he woke up that he had become a man/machine abomination was ok.

Explain this. The alternative is that he somehow knows everything. Is that better or worse, and why? I can't see why anyone would bother to bring up the fact that he has no clue what's going on since it makes sense and is completely essential to the movie.

The things I wanted to see were the liquid metal terminators and more laser pulse cannon terminator skeletons but that's ok since it's the first in a series of movies.

Even further along in the war I doubt there are very many of these. Skynet sent back one Series-1000 and one Series T-X that we know of, and the only other polyalloy terminator we can name seems to be completely rogue and has its own agenda.

Skynet went ahead and flooded the past with trip-eights and at least one T-800. If the more advanced models were available in any kind of reliable supply there'd probably be a lot more of them involved. There isn't likely to be an entire army of the really hot hardware at any time.

I had no problems with the movie other than the whole "I need a heart/ooh take mine" plot was very cliche'd and kind of hurt to sit through.

While I hated that part of the movie because it's entirely random and uncomfortable nonsense, "cliche'd" isn't the word you want, here. A cliché is something that's overused. I don't see a lot of inter-hero heart transplants in movies.

I'm interested to see if Marcus is really dead.

The movie works as an action movie lots of imagery...

Also not the word you want.

I think a few things like skynet's future knowledge can be had from the fact that the Terminator in 3 informed skynet of some future events so skynet was aware of things which would be problematic for it.

I don't remember that happening. Its knowledge of the future can be explained by the fact that it knows everything that's happened before, probably including everything Sarah Connor ever said to police or doctors, and it's smart enough to figure out the rest.

I liked the cyberdyne connection and the assembly line with the terminators. I think it makes sense that cyberdyne had factories setup for making humans near immortal with cybog tech and that skynet then coopted those facilities to create robotic death machines that resemble humans.

Well it makes sense that Cyberdyne facilities would be used by Skynet since that's where Skynet is from, and Cyberdyne is clearly ahead of the curve when it comes to high-tech weapons. I don't recall "factories setup for making humans near immortal with cyborg tech." There is one experimental terminator prototype made from Marcus Wright, but that's all. Cyberdyne's factories were set up to make those early HK drones and T1s.

Skynet has been making additions and modifications ever since Judgement Day.

t's a bit of a cleaner explanation for where the terminators came from than we've previously had.

No, it's not. It's an incredibly clumsy explanation you just made up in your head. The one we have right now is the same one we always did.

One of the problems with the Terminator design has been wtf would they look human when a UAV with a missiles/bomb would be more effective.

Skynet does field UAVs with very big weapons of multiple types, but you can't go explore subways and sewers and bunkers and caves and any other places a few billion Resistance soldiers might make into fortresses without something more mobile.

The later-model terminators are clearly made to follow humans where humans can go, and do it quickly and effectively with on-the-fly repurposing of weapons made for men, manipulating security and computer systems made for human eyes and hands, and avoiding any kind of other problems that would result from being too big or too heavy, or lacking hands, or any number of other problems that could present themselves. Obviously there's a major psychological-warfare component as well.

Skynet builds enormous tanks and monstrosities like the harvesters as well. I don't see a problem with a diversified attack force.

I think this explains it very nicely. The facility was there so skynet used it.

That's how things usually work for Skynet, especially this early in the war when it can barely get ahead of the Resistance who clearly have the advantage in terms of equipment.

Will it be matrix style peace?

This hurts my mind to a degree I can't express.

At the end of the day it had explosions and stuff so it was cool.

I agree; it was a thrilling action movie with excellent special effects. You see how I said the same thing you said without falling back on horrible shorthand like "it had explosions and stuff?" This is because I respect myself and want to make sure other people don't think I'm a moron.

I'd like to see Catherine get into the fighting more in the upcoming movies.

Probably not going to happen what with the pregnancy and then the newborn and stuff. Also she's a reeeeaaallly lame character.

I think it'd also be cool if the human resistance starts to enhance their soldiers with robotics after marcus.

They probably do. When they get Marcus in the ER and take initial notice of his injuries they remark that he has a prosthetic limb.

 

[ELTEE]

You see how I said the same thing you said without falling back on horrible shorthand like "it had explosions and stuff?" This is because I respect myself and want to make sure other people don't think I'm a moron.

hahaha frosty dope funny n stuff.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I'm looking forward to seeing Kyle Reese get sent back through time and to see what the final victory looks like. Will it be matrix style peace? or complete annihilation of the machines?

I think the original movie is pretty clear that the resistance ultimately *defeats* Skynet (isn't the Universal Studios ride about this? The really expensive one where they brought back all the T2 actors?).

Eh... I don't think he was "seeking redemption." His conversation with Dr. Kogan shows that he wasn't interested.

I have to argue with Darkmage on this one: it's the point of the character.

Marcus is such an interesting aspect of the movie because there's (intentionally, I hope) an enormous divide between how this is expressed. It's brain-blisteringly obvious through the imagery but incredibly subtle for the man in the context.

On one hand, we are absolutely beat over the head in the allegory with the fact that he's Jesus Christ -- from his role in the story (dies twice, sacrafices himself for mankind's salvation, etc.) to imagery that goes a good bit beyond obnoxious (he's given his lethal injection on a crucifix? *Really*?).

On the other hand, his want for redemption in the context of the story is a lot more subtle, which is something that modern action movies just don't do anymore. He's not going around crying on shoulders and talking about his dead brother... but the movie makes clear that there's something there (beyond, obviously, his actions -- words aside he accepts the idea of the redemptive sacrafice at both the top and the bottom of the story). Look at the scene with the music in the car and how he sadly explains to Kyle that it was "something... my brother used to listen to." He talks like an unmoved action hero throughout, but he's clearly affected (and looking for a cause).

(Also, the title of the movie is a pun about exactly this... the story is about salvation from a Terminator. What fowls it all up is John Connor -- the movie shouldn't be *about* him as much as it is. Marcus should have been the focus and we should have spent a lot more time appreciating his struggle.)

Skynet went ahead and flooded the past with trip-eights and at least one T-800. If the more advanced models were available in any kind of reliable supply there'd probably be a lot more of them involved. There isn't likely to be an entire army of the really hot hardware at any time.

Everyone forgets that the future-war lasts 30+ years (it's the nature of the previous stories, I guess: you have a liner story whose time and place you can relate to and then quick flashes of 'the future'). Salvation is fifteen years from Judgement Day... but it's still another fifteen years from the end of the story.

I guess we don't know for sure, but my feeling is that the T-X and the T-1000 and company are like the Nazi jets and rockets... impressive weapons that show up in small numbers at the very end of the conflict, when it has already become clear that the Resistance is going to win the conventional war. The -800s and their spinoffs that are being developed in Salvation are going to be the ME-109s of the robots that look like dudes force for the next fifteen years...

(For once I'd like to see a science fiction war scenario that ends in a reasonable way. I don't want a desparate last-ditch strike to finish off the machines... I'd like to see the final victory as implied in the first movie -- a win that comes from years of campaigns and that seems apparent to everyone involved.)

While I hated that part of the movie because it's entirely random and uncomfortable nonsense, "cliche'd" isn't the word you want, here. A cliché is something that's overused. I don't see a lot of inter-hero heart transplants in movies.

It does feel so silly because it taps into something that we feel like Hollywood just-doesn't-get *over and over*. At this point in time a heart transplant is a death sentence... likely a slight extension of an existing death sentence, but a death sentence all the same. Under some ideal set of circumstances we feel like John might have months to live now, in a hospital bed hooked up to anti-rejection meds the whole time. It's the distant opposite to living through another fifteen years of hard fighting to defeat the machines.

Obviously that isn't the intent of the movie and it's entirely possible that we're supposed to understand that it's the future and medical technology has advanced significantly in a manner we all expect will happen in real life (Marcus is, after all, proof of this)... but it just feels like it's more medical incomprehension from the people who think having their characters pop and trade kidneys and lungs is a funny sitcom plot to repeat over and over.

I'm interested to see if Marcus is really dead.

If we're sticking with Marcus-as-Jesus then I assume we might see him again when it's judgement day for the machines.

Probably not going to happen what with the pregnancy and then the newborn and stuff. Also she's a reeeeaaallly lame character.

Two points:

- I think she was absolutely necessary in Terminator 3... because she provided a new viewpoint that everyone forgets about. Three-stories-in, you sort of *needed* a character who didn't immediately accept that machines would take over and that John was the savior of the future. She's the audience -- we're convince as she's convinced. Without that element the story would have been a lot less complex: the same stuff happens again, everyone reacts as expected.

- As uninteresting as she is now, I think it's really cool that she's in the movie. It's a necessary connection to Terminator 3 that it would have been so easy to ignore -- and that large portions of the internet will insist *should* be ignored (which is goofy, but I think reaction to T3 is now working the same way as Wing Commander sequels... suddenly everyone loves the last one and hates the new one.) It's just too bad they didn't stick Derek in there somewhere...

(I also agree with you directly, if not for the same logic. The fact of the matter is it's more interesting to have a character who *isn't* another action hero doing things action heroilily.)

They probably do. When they get Marcus in the ER and take initial notice of his injuries they remark that he has a prosthetic limb.

I don't know... it's certainly possible, but I immediately think of Derek's reaction to Cameron being in the past in spite of knowing that John sent her there. They *really* hate machines and might not choose to do this (besides, ordinary organ replacement is apparently so easy that it can be done at an open field hospital in non-surgical conditions...).

Also, the idea of going to a future Terminator story really hoping to see slightly-cyborg people is kind of clammy.

 

[ELTEE]

At this point in time a heart transplant is a death sentence... .

Unless you're one lucky bastard like Carroll Shelby. I'm still amazed at what that guy has done considering the medical issues he's faced.

 

[Frosty]

I have to argue with Darkmage on this one: it's the point of the character.

Whether Marcus redeems himself, he isn't seeking it. After signing the Cyberdyne release form, he tells Dr. Kogan something like "Just cut me up 'till there's nothin' left." He's obviously seeking *nothing* until he realizes what's become of him. After escaping Connor's base his barely-defined motivation revolves around discovery of who who resurrected him as a hated cyborg followed by revenge. He spends almost as much time basically aimless as he does seeking anything, and redemption is never on his list.

This is not to say he doesn't begin the movie as a villain and become a hero, it's simply never his personal goal to make the transformation.

Marcus should have been the focus and we should have spent a lot more time appreciating his struggle.

I don't particularly like Marcus, as a character. There's nothing wrong with him, but I also really did not give even a fraction of a shit about him. I can't imagine the movie with more of that going on, although the Connors aren't particularly interesting, either, so maybe it's a wash.

(For once I'd like to see a science fiction war scenario that ends in a reasonable way. I don't want a desparate last-ditch strike to finish off the machines... I'd like to see the final victory as implied in the first movie -- a win that comes from years of campaigns and that seems apparent to everyone involved.)

It's fun because it's actually Skynet who makes the last-ditch attempt at victory and can't pull it off. It's obvious from TSCC that the war proper is pretty far from over even after the capture of that facility, though. There's no race to Berlin that culminates in Kyle going back to the '80s.

It does feel so silly because it taps into something that we feel like Hollywood just-doesn't-get *over and over*...It's the distant opposite to living through another fifteen years of hard fighting to defeat the machines.

I can overlook this because Marcus is clearly abnormal since his resurrection by Skynet (more speculation on this later.) Maybe he has some kind of redesigned heart based on the principles of infiltrator biology and it can't be rejected or something. That's less important than the fact that it's just stupid.

I know that the tradition in the movies is that the terminator has to die, and I appreciate all that stuff about salvation and Marcus Christ, but, "Oh, here, take my heart because it works!" is the very least logical conclusion that could possibly be reached in that situation.

ARNOLD HAS A PIG HEART!!!

If we're sticking with Marcus-as-Jesus then I assume we might see him again when it's judgement day for the machines.

Well, even before that, if they just wanted to bring him back because they figure people liked the character, it could be done. From a utilitarian script-mechanic point of view you could just say they traded hearts or whatever, and Marcus's superior body healed the damaged heart and everything is fine. Even without that it's obvious that he can go really long periods of time functionally dead without ill effect.

I'd expect to see him back at some point.

Your remark about "Judgement Day for the machines" is interesting because that's an event that occurs after anything we've ever been shown. It almost feels like it happens after the end of time.

- As uninteresting as she is now, I think it's really cool that she's in the movie. It's a necessary connection to Terminator 3 that it would have been so easy to ignore -- and that large portions of the internet will insist *should* be ignored (which is goofy, but I think reaction to T3 is now working the same way as Wing Commander sequels... suddenly everyone loves the last one and hates the new one.) It's just too bad they didn't stick Derek in there somewhere...

I don't think she shouldn't be in the movie, but I do think she's a complete nothing character. I don't have a problem with this, it's just there. I don't see her ever becoming really interesting.

Derek is the coolest character in Terminator and yes, I really wish he'd been in the movie.

(I also agree with you directly, if not for the same logic. The fact of the matter is it's more interesting to have a character who *isn't* another action hero doing things action heroilily.)

Which is fine, because if it's going to be a balanced movie they've got to have at least one of those, and I appreciate that. I just can't comprehend anyone ever saying "Man, I hope we get to see more of her in the next movie."

I don't know... it's certainly possible, but I immediately think of Derek's reaction to Cameron being in the past in spite of knowing that John sent her there. They *really* hate machines and might not choose to do this (besides, ordinary organ replacement is apparently so easy that it can be done at an open field hospital in non-surgical conditions...).

Well now we can have a purely speculative geek discussion of Terminator's future-medicine as well as whether mechanical prostheses are stigmatized in any way.

• They might not wish to choose to replace a lost limb with a mechanical substitute, but they're also in a war for survival against and enemy that builds new soldiers on an hourly schedule and never mourns their loss. Probably best to swallow your pride and get back on the field as quickly as possible.
• Organ replacement is apparently easy, but so far we've only seen it done when a perfectly good replacement is available. I doubt the resistance has axlotl tanks full of legs ready to be sewn onto troopers at a moment's notice.
• It's entirely probable that mechanical prostheses are incredibly rare and carry a negative stigma with them. They seemed plenty shocked at Marcus' leg. Its existence wasn't unbelievable, since she assumed it was something mundane, but they were clearly surprised to see it anyway, so perhaps it's a rarity ("it" being what they believe to be a replacement limb and not evidence of extensive cyborgification.)

Also, the idea of going to a future Terminator story really hoping to see slightly-cyborg people is kind of clammy.

The hoping grosses me out, but I wonder if somebody was simply rambling on with clumsy phrasing in a vain attempt to have something to say in this thread.

 

[RogueBanshee]

Has anyone checked out the novelization yet? I'd be curious to see how much more it fleshes out any of the sequences...especially the one between Marcus and Skynet.

The single biggest difference I remember is that in the novel John destroys the T-800's head while it is frozen so the whole heart transplant thing is skipped.

 

[privfan]

When they get Marcus in the ER and take initial notice of his injuries they remark that he has a prosthetic limb.

it was more of a question, asking if he had a prosthetic limb as they were trying to figure out why a magnetic mine was attracted to him and they likely saw the metal endoskeleton and been wondering why he had metal in his leg

 

[Dundradal]

The single biggest difference I remember is that in the novel John destroys the T-800's head while it is frozen so the whole heart transplant thing is skipped.

Hmmm.

For those who enjoy novelizations of this type of thing I'd recommend the prequel novel. Going into the movie, it certainly helped to have some idea of the people surrounding John, although in the prequel the roles of Barnes and Kate are a bit more important than they seem in the movie.

I personally enjoyed its story more than the movie's plot line. It essentially traces how Connor and his group of resistance fighters earn their way into the main resistance movement.

 

[Frosty]

it was more of a question, asking if he had a prosthetic limb as they were trying to figure out why a magnetic mine was attracted to him and they likely saw the metal endoskeleton and been wondering why he had metal in his leg

I know this because I've seen the movie several times. I don't see what your post is meant to add to what I've already said.

Reading the prequel book is kind of a chore. I did not like it at all.

 

[Red Baron]

Don't know if this has been mentioned before, i admit i didn't read ALL the comments as some are like little novels themselves:
I really missed the concept of everyday people of our time being confronted with future killing machines. Something like the police station/Cyberdyne Systems scenes, or generally people's faces when they try to shoot a terminator. I know we were told beforhand the movie was about the war, and i don't know how they could've come up with yet ANOTHER time travel story and make it entertaining, i just miss the surprised/shocked faces. Especially Dr. Silberman, but his T3 scene was unbeatable in my opinion.

 

[Frosty]

Don't know if this has been mentioned before, i admit i didn't read ALL the comments as some are like little novels themselves:

You should avoid admitting this, as it's almost like a magical incantation that sets me ready to destroy you.

...and i don't know how they could've come up with yet ANOTHER time travel story and make it entertaining...

They pretty much did this every week with The Sarah Connor Chronicles.

i just miss the surprised/shocked faces.

Maybe a DVD compilation of ordinary people putting on their best surprised or shocked expression would satisfy you more than a Terminator film, then?