some firepower calcs (not mine)

$tormin

Vice Admiral
The following was copied from a post by Fenris Ulfric.
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Originally posted by Fenris Ulfric
Since it's come up in about a dozen Vs. Debates in as many days, I thought I should revisit the issue here in a dedicated thread.

Now, for quite some time, I've been using an obtuse and inaccurate way of determining firepower which has three outcomes.

This meathod has been based on the energy required to vaporize a certain radius sphere of material.

First outcome: Strict mathemetical heeding of the equaitons. This gives us a radical exponential power curve putting Lasers as low-kiloton weapons while a CSM measures over 13 gigatons. The problem with this is the fact that the power differential would mean either shields were on an inverse resistance (being HIGHLY vulnerable to low-level weapons fire while repelling much higer levels of firepower much more effectively, which makes no sense). This model doesn't work for that simple reason. The damage caused by the lower-powered weapons are completely dis-proportional to the damage inflicted.

Second and Third Outcome: Choose one end of the spectrum as the base calculation and go from it linearly from one end to the other. This give a more realistic measure of damage potantial, but the low-end up can never yield the energy required for a CSM, and the high-end-low (what I've been using) would give lasers far more punchign power than they should for only 18 cm penetration.


However, NONE of these are correct. They are all highly flawed.


Unfortunately, this only leaves one option which is so completely unorthodox that it recieved increadibly heavy criticism when I first brought it up (leading me to use the other, more flawed meathod).

This is in fact, the only theory which fits Game play AND the linear structure of damage potential.

The Bore-and-Spread Theory.

Essentially, this applies the game mechanics, in which shields across an entire side drop for a laser, as does said 18cm penetration laser strip armor off the entire side of a vessel, be it Fighter or be it Dreadnought. There is no explanation of this odd trate, however it does happen.

This is where it gets nasty.

A common fighter-laser, the weakest weapon in the game, will strip 18cm armor or the equivelent in shields of the entire side of a ship, and of part of the top and bottom, up to Kilrathi Dreadnought or Starbase in size.

(For a Dreadnought) That's a 22km long, avreage of 3km wide and 18cm deep strip of metal.

That's 11,880,000 cubic meters of metal, and the high-end damage for a fighter laser.

The Vs. Ruels of conservative estimate say when measuring an exotic futuristic compound, in this case durasteel, use Iron for a baseline conservative estimate.

The Energy to convert 1 cubic meter of Iron to vapor from a temperature of 30 degrees Celcius is 60010238510.3 J/m^3.

That's 712,921,633,502,364,000 Joules to strip off that volume of metal, or 712,921.6 Terrajoules. With around 4100 TerraJoules/megaton, that gives a mere fighter-laser an upward figure of 173.9 megatons worth of energy in a mere fighter-laser.

That is what shields would register it as when resisting. however, the weapon has a very exotic nature, meaning when it strikes hull, it only tears down to 18cm equiv of durasteel, or in this case, iron, and sends a strange energywash over the target's striken side. Thus, it won't rip through more that 18 cm, BUT it WILL rip that equivelency off the entire side in a millisecond.

However the effect is very quickly cumulative.

Take the Banshee (a Union of Border Worlds fighter). It has four lasers. Lasers fire 4 times a second. That's 16 strikes per second, 2,782.4 megatons worth of energy in a second, and 2.88 meters ripped off the side of the target or target component.

This gives your average light fighter squadron of 12 fighters more raw energy-weapon firepower than Mike Wong's greatest estimates for an Imperial Star Destroyer.

Now, take a Capital Laser. 25cm penetration, fires *5* times a second, and always mounted in pairs.

Energy/shot: 990,168,935,419,950,000 Joules; 990,168.9TJ
Yield/shot: 241.5Mt
Yield/second: 1,207.5Mt/second
Yield/turret/second: 2,415Mt/second/turret

A Tallahassee class Cruiser has 11 Laser turrets. That's 26,565 Mt/second equiv. with just the lasers, much less the 3-4 AMG turrets. With the 4 AMG turrets, it puts out 34,293 Megatons per second, sustained fire. Fire can be sustained indefinitely.

AntiMatter Guns (AMGs)...
1.5 meter penetration, 1.5 second refire delay

Energy/shot: 5,941,013,612,519,700,000 Joules; 5,941,013TJ
Yield/shot: 1,449Mt/shot
Yield/second: 966Mt/second
Yield/turret/second: 1,932 Mt/second/turret


Captital Ship Missile (CSM)
60,000cm (600m) penetration.

Energy/missile: 2,376,405,445,007,880,000,000 Joules
In Terrajoules: 2,376,405,445 TJ
Yield: 579,611 Mt (579.6 Gigatons)


And so on...


HOWEVER, this means the shields of Capital Ships must match this damage capability if they are to stand up to this much energy. This results in the following shield figures:

Tallahassee class cruiser:
Sheilds: 3000cm equiv (per side)
Energy to drain shield: 118,820,272,250,394,000,000 Joules
In TerraJoules: 118,820,272.2 TJ
In Megatons: 28,980.6 Mt


Kilrathi Dreadnought:
Shields: 8000cm Equiv (per side)
Energy to drain shield: 316,854,059,334,384,000,000 Joules
In TerraJoules: 316,854,059.3 TJ
In Megatons: 77,281.5 Mt




Now, I'm fully expecting the following uproar over the impossibility or foolish nature of the calculations, and even to get flamed by a couple of the less-rational debators. However, this meathod *is* the most true to the Wing Commander universe, and is violated by none of the materials, while all three of the other meathods were woefully wrong. This is the only meathod that actually works.

Another IMPORTANT issue is that this energy is not focused in the same manner as other weapons in other universes. with the effect which burns the side off, there is not the same "oomph" as a "mundane" weapon of similar magnitude,as is will not bore through more than said number of Centimeters of material (for the calcs, iron, but in "reality" durasteel, a powerful alloy with superior metalurgical properties), no matter what the size. The only major issue is how quickly the damage would accumulate.

In further addendum, hulls reinforced by Structural Integrity Fields, or other forms of shields/forcefields may in fact suffer said energy burst to the impact area, reacting with the hull integrity fields much like it would shields, and prevent the Spreading part of the weapon's exotic function. This would be all-but lethal to a warship, adn would likely explain why structural integrity fields are not seen in Wing Commander.

Anyway, this is here for you to chew on and debate over.
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
This doesn't make sense -- it's not using values from the game.

those calcs are from observed game damage.
ex. the laser striping 18cm armour from a dreadnought in one hit.
It gives the max firepower calcs
 
The laser does 1.8 cm of damage, though -- 18 *units* of damage in the game (a single damage unit is .1 cm).

But the entire thing is non-sensical... the author uses completely random baseline figures, he ignores existing data on energy use and weapon effectiveness, and he covers all this up by being overly wordy (did we really need the fact that the Banshee is a Union of Border Worlds fighter explained?)
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF

The laser does 1.8 cm of damage, though -- 18 *units* of damage in the game (a single damage unit is .1 cm).

But the entire thing is non-sensical... the author uses completely random baseline figures,

those figures were obtained by the effectiveness of weapons on the kilrathi dreadnought. the way the armour along the whole side of the thing is reduced by whatever the damage is. the bore and spread theary.
he ignores existing data on energy use and weapon effectiveness,
the weapon does pierce the whatever deepth, it is the stripping of the armour along the whole length that amounts to the high numbers.
[qoute]
and he covers all this up by being overly wordy (did we really need the fact that the Banshee is a Union of Border Worlds fighter explained?)
[/QUOTE]

This post is originally from spacebattles.com so yes he had to say whos fighter the banshee belonged to. only a few there are true wing commander fans. Iceberg3k started the serise of events that led to wing commander being noticed as one of the more powerful sci-fi. It was when he copied your post on the specifics of the vesuvius that ppl started to take notice.
 
Those stats can't possibly be obtained from actual testing against the Kilrathi dreadnought -- it's not 22 km long in the game, and lasers are wholly uneffective against it. I see what the original poster is *trying* to do... but it doesn't work when you fill in empty spaces with numbers you make up, and when you ignore the actual capabilities as stated in-universe (G)
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Those stats can't possibly be obtained from actual testing against the Kilrathi dreadnought -- it's not 22 km long in the game, and lasers are wholly uneffective against it. I see what the original poster is *trying* to do... but it doesn't work when you fill in empty spaces with numbers you make up, and when you ignore the actual capabilities as stated in-universe (G)

1.I did not make up those numbers.
2.its not just lasers.
3.its not just the dreadnought, 18cm deep along 22km long. thats alot of armour. realworld damage would only be cumulitive if the shots hit in the same spot. (hole in 1) The power would be way different if it was against somthing like a pirhana which has less area on a side.
4.why don't you go and take a look at the thread. it is in the vs debates of spacebattles.
 
Originally posted by TC
wow, how did you mess up a link? Just type in the url and vB link-ifies it.

TC

the link kept taking me to a 404 page.

so i will put a link directly to spacebattles.

http://spacebattles.efront.com/


go to forums, click 216.87.216.16
click Vs. debates.
then look for the thread entitled Wing commander weapons and weapon power.
 
I tried to post to the SpaceBattles forum, but they've got some idiotic system where you need to be manually confirmed first -- it's been 24 hours now...

Luckily, we know how to run a message board here (G) So here was my intended reply...

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Howdy! Bandit from the CIC here (wcnews.com) -- $tormin invited me over...

There are a few flaws with your reasoning...

Firstoff, you're reading the stats incorrectly -- the laser does 1.8 cm of damage... damage is, in some manuals (Victory Streak, for instance) given in 'damage units', which are equal to .1 cm.

Thanks to the manuals, we need not calculate the energy of weapons -- it's stated in black and white that, for example, the laser uses 10 gigajoules from the ship's powerplant to fire... the amount of energy afflicted upon the enemy ship should be equal to or less than 10 Gj, shouldn't it?

You're also apparently of the school of thought that "whatever happens in the game engine is -real-"... this is not so -- if the game designers were to model a 22 km dreadnought with thousands upon thousands of possible areas to damage, the game would slow to a crawl. We are told that the damage radius of most weapons is 50 meters (Wing Commander 1 blueprints): and this is not a complete vaporizing of the affected area... it's having caused enough damage to destructuralize them -- a laser hit will render the equivalent of 1.8 cm durasteel useless (not that you'd *need* to vaporize metal to get rid of it -- shouldn't melting it be fine? We do *see* armor sheer off or crack into pieces in the game -- not vaporize). The fact that armor still remains is probably why core damage (the damage taken after armor and shields become ineffective) is somewhat *random* -- there's no set pattern as to which systems will be damaged/disabled.

As someone else pointed out, armor isn't *actually* as thick as given in the manuals -- that's the durasteel equivalent... ships today are armored with plasteel (1:10 rato), tungsten (1:20) or isometal (1:60) -- in Prophecy, they're armored with platolum, a material for which we have as yet no conversion (save that the Nephilim's organic hulls are 1.8 times as effective thereof). Thus, a dreadnought with 1,500 cm of armor on its side *actually* has 25 cm of physical isometal armor. Since you are clearly in need of a goodbaseline for such things, use tungsten (1 cm of tungsten = 20 cm of durasteel), as it is a real metal.

Shield hits are slightly different -- you pump energy into a shield half/quadrant until its generator overloads. Only a select few weapons actually *circumvent* shields (locked torpedoes, the PAG, PTC blasts, AMG balls)... the rest must go through the shield's durasteel equivalent level before hitting the armor.
 
Loaf, does that mean that tungsten is 20 times stronger or 1/20 as dense as durasteel? Shouldn't it in reality be the other way around as durasteel is not real and exotic?
 
It's worth mentioning that WC tungsten armor doesn't behave nearly like tungsten in real life - real-life tungsten would be vaporized quite handily by energy yields like the ones WC fighters toss about (a few hundred gigawatts for high-end civilian guns to several terawatts for most military guns).

In my somewhat humble opinion, "tungsten armor" is most likely in fact an exotic alloy of steel or some other metal which includes tungsten as a component. Or perhaps a composite material, again with tungsten as a component. IMHO, though, WC armor does NOT behave in a manner that one would expect solid metal plating to behave. Therefore it most likely is not solid metal plating (my theory is that it's a composite designed to ablate in thin layers when hit with high energy weaponry, thus providing the largest amount of protection for the longest period of time.

[Edited by Iceberg on 03-18-2001 at 00:55]
 
Good idea...I just would hope that designers of the future (both game, and military/scientific) have some originality in their names so laymen like us don't get confused :)
 
*Any* armor is probably an exotic alloy -- but the SpaceBattles people seem to ignore that (G)

As for Tungsten in WC -- 1 cm of Tungsten provides the same protection as 20 cm of Durasteel.
 
Just to let all know I do not understand why people continuously mis quote WC weapons ennergy requirements. In loaf's post they state Gigajoules yet both Victory Streak and Waypoint! clearly state nanojoules. Also if each gun did .1 cm of armor or even 1cm then it would take 1 gun about 1 and a half years to destroy 1 fighter since their shields are by wc3 and up anywhere from 200cm equivlant (arrow) to 850 on a Black Devestator, and armor is anywhere from 60cm equivalent to 420cm equivalent.
 
Gigajoules is given in Privateer.

The *units* are .1 cm, no gun does only one unit... the laser does 18 units of damage, or 1.8 cm...

Thus, we fire our laser at a target, and it does 3.6 cm of damage -- and we fire the laser every .25 seconds... so we do 14.4 cm of damage each second: thus, under ten seconds of *laser* fire to destroy a Darket.
 
Execpt that then by your reasoning 1 Heavy Plasma Cannon can only take out 22 cm of armor, yet I can take out an enemy fighter with only 1 shot.

And just because gigajoules are givin in privatteer, that is 1 source against the 2 I have provided, both of which being newer sources as well, so I presented twice as many and newer sources
 
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