sarah connor chronicles

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Vasator said:
How else could T3 end? If john had defeated skynet then the terminator would never had existed in the first place to go back in time and try and kill him. That future is inevitable because the future has already happened. It's like in the time machine. He goes back to save her over and over again and she dies. He built the time machine to save her but if he does manage to save her then there is something we like to call a "Paradox". why would he have built the time machine?

I will try and simplify this for you. Lets say you go back in time and accidentally kill your father before you were born, lets say he is 8 years old and something you do contributes to his death. How could you have been born to build the machine? Paradox.

The terminator franchise is just that. a paradox. you cannot change the future because events from that future helped mold and change what you did.

it can be confusing
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This might strike you as bizarre, but I understand the concept of a paradox fully. Bizarrely enough, for about ten years, the Terminator franchise was left with a paradox of sorts as its ending, and no one complained, because it was the conceit of the movie. It was, as the poster below you unintentionally may have supported, the "plot hole" that one was willing to allow for the movie to work.

Likewise, in Back to the Future, when Marty arrives in future 1985, he has been living a "better" life, and thus would likely have had differing circumstances, and been a different person who may have not altered the past in the same manner that the Marty we had been watching had.

We let that go. Dismissing an ending that erases the good work of the *point* of a previous movie in the series because it might cause a plot hole that every single movie in the history of time travel movies manages to possess is foolish.

The original Terminator film is *built* on a paradox: Kyle Reese (from the apocolyptic future) is John Connor's father. Without John Connor, Kyle Reese would not have volunteered to go back in time to save John Connor, because he wouldn't have needed to. Thus, in the "first" time line, John Connor never existed. Considering that is the conceit of the first movie in the franchise, it is, frankly, silly to say that Terminator 3, over ten years later, needed to be made the exact way it was made because of the possibility of a paradox.

Really.

What I'm getting at is not really the "nitty gritty" necessarily. I'm not trying to "over analyze" the series (well, maybe a bit). I'm arguing about the merits of the *theme* of a film, using scenes from that film. Whether we like it or not, T2 was a fantastic action movie not just because of the 'splosions (though that helps) but because of a very well-told plot with a solid message backing it up. What upsets me about T3 is that it, in a way, undoes that good work in T2, not some silly minor details about what SkyNET *is*- that's just for a bit of lively discussion.
 
ser lev said:
Also it's a movie....scifi....they often have plot holes some tiny some big...the good ones allow you to forget them unless some guy over analyses what is simply a movie about robots from the future.
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By the way, and no insult meant here, but I find this comment absolutely hilarious on a Wing Commander fan board. :)
 
Tooner623 said:
It may be personal preference, but I prefer the message of Terminator 2, and I think that was the ultimate message of the series until T3 came along.
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Credit where credit is due - while I enjoyed the dramatic idea of how T3 ended, I was really angry with the message for the reasons you stated. In a long #wingnut conversation with LOAF, he pointed out the Terminator / T3 point, to which I am very thankful of.

Tooner623 said:
I'll admit it has been a while, but where is the other arm and chip leftover?
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I believe Sarah removed one of the chips from the T-800's head while they hide in the garage. The "extra arm" comes from when the T-1000 beats the T-800 - where it then loses its arm from the elbow down in a machine gear.

Tooner623 said:
Beaten to it- The Matrix *did* do it. That (unfortunately) said, this was back in the very small time window where things like that were considered "cool." I'm struggling now to dig up the original interview (I'm fairly sure its in an old issue of Gamepro somewhere), but the game did indeed have the official stamp, and was, interestingly enough, being designed at roughly the same time as the writing for the film was taking place, giving me pause as to why there are such contradictions.
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You are correct - but I think this is a very unusual exception. The Wachowski Brothers were involved in the game's development - which is not something we've seen before as George Lucas had very, very little to do with any Lucasarts games, save signing off on them.
 
LeHah said:
I haven't seen the pilot yet but am weary, simply because of Summer Glau. She's not a good actress (see: Firefly) and the "Come With Me If You Want To Live" line has lost all meaning at this point (It made sense and actually had levity when it was said in T2 but by now its just turned into a damn catchphrase that everyone in every movie says.)
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Not to be a nitpick whore, but Kyle Reese said that to Sarah in the first Terminator, in the night club after Ahnuld took a face-full of buckshot.

believe Sarah removed one of the chips from the T-800's head while they hide in the garage. The "extra arm" comes from when the T-1000 beats the T-800 - where it then loses its arm from the elbow down in a machine gear
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Actually, if your referring to the first T-800's chip from the first movie, that was taken after he got crushed. Same with the arm.

It's been a long time since i've seen both, but if your also referring to The second T-800's chip, that was the only one. If Sarah smashed it, say buh-bye to Arnold.

Besides, this also assumes that Sarah is careless enough to leave it behind, which really doesn't fit her character in T2.
 
Now, actually about the third movie... I liked it, but not nearly as so as the first two movies.

A problem I did have with T3 is that I never had a 'Oh fuck me sideways we're screwed' scene. Well, none that fill the amount of dread that I got from the first two.

The first one was when the T-800 is revealed in all of its metal skeleton glory, and it chases Reese and Sarah into the factory. Even while campilly animated, that still gives me a shiver everytime I see the last half-hour of the movie.

T2's for me was the scene where T-800 and John have gotten Sarah and the T-1000 rounds the corner and goes through the bars, getting his gun stuck in the process. I'll tell you I felt like Silberman when I saw that scene.

Also, the less said about the steel factory, the better.
 
EH, the special edition of Alien 3 is actually good, and patches up some plot holes.

Alien Resurrection should of never been made. God, did that movie suck...
 
I actually never really understood why people don't like Alien 3 - I certainly don't see what would make it worse than the first two. Sure, it's different... but Aliens is also hugely different to the original (and, while a really fun film, it definitely has a lot less in common with the original than Alien 3 does).

...But as for Resurrection, yeah, let's not talk about that :p.
 
ser lev said:
and it has summer glau, glue, glip, oh whatever her last name is:p
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That's reason enough for me to watch it:D I loved her in Firefly and Serenity. It's Summer Glau by the way.

LeHah said:
While I cannot speak for Terminator continuity as a whole - I've never, ever heard of any respectable franchise allowing a video game to be any part of "offical canon". Even Star Wars, which is known for having the worst canon system, puts video games at the botom most tier.

This aside - if the Terminator franchise is anything like Star Wars, Star Trek or the like - the movies trump all other tie-ins. Even if the game was written for canon, the movies are the "bible" to which everything else must adjust to. A similar example is that Zahn's title for the leader of the Republic was suddenly unoffical when we had the character of Chancellor Valorum in The Phantom Menace.

Everything has to fit the movies, not the other way around.
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That's one of the things that killed my interest in Star Wars. I was always more of a fan of the novels than the movies. So when the new trilogy started screwing up continuity left and right I just got sick of it.
 
LeHah said:
Credit where credit is due - while I enjoyed the dramatic idea of how T3 ended, I was really angry with the message for the reasons you stated. In a long #wingnut conversation with LOAF, he pointed out the Terminator / T3 point, to which I am very thankful of.
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Well, I'm glad I'm not alone in my thoughts, at least. Interestingly, I had never considered the T1/T3 connection before, I had always viewed T1 as part of a story with T2, so the alteration of its message was natural.


LeHah said:
I believe Sarah removed one of the chips from the T-800's head while they hide in the garage. The "extra arm" comes from when the T-1000 beats the T-800 - where it then loses its arm from the elbow down in a machine gear.
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OK, since I'm now a tad confused, let's run down the list...
-T-800 from The Terminator: Crushed in workshop. It's arm and chip are used by Miles Dyson and Cyberdyne industries, and will eventually create SkyNET.
-T-800 from Terminator 2: Judgment Day: Chip melted, one arm remains.
-T-1000 from Terminator 2: Judgement Day: Melted.
You are correct, one arm does indeed remain, but it was my understanding that it was the *chip* that helped create SkyNET, while the arm helped create the robotic systems that would become SkyNET's army. This of course, could be incorrect.


LeHah said:
You are correct - but I think this is a very unusual exception. The Wachowski Brothers were involved in the game's development - which is not something we've seen before as George Lucas had very, very little to do with any Lucasarts games, save signing off on them.
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Yeah, in the end, Enter The Matrix was the worse for it, really. It certainly isn't something that happens very often, I will admit that. In fact, I can only think of a few examples... Terminator: Dawn of Fate, Enter the Matrix, 24: The Game, The X-Files: Resist or Serve, and Stranglehold most recently.

All this said, as I've noted before, I enjoyed T3. I enjoyed it for what it was. It was a stylish action movie with a sense of humor about itself. But as an addition to the franchise, I found it problematic, that is all.
 
Tooner623 said:
Yeah, in the end, Enter The Matrix was the worse for it, really. It certainly isn't something that happens very often, I will admit that. In fact, I can only think of a few examples... Terminator: Dawn of Fate, Enter the Matrix, 24: The Game, The X-Files: Resist or Serve, and Stranglehold most recently.
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Don't forget - there is a subtle but important difference between a story being part of the continuity and a story that simply doesn't interrupt or affect the surrounding continuity. For example, look at all those Star Trek books - while they work "in continuity" with what preceed and follow it, they never "really affect" the shows or movies. (Examples like Q possessing Gary Mitchell in Q Squared - which takes place during "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is an example of while it explains where Mitchell got his powers, its neither acredited nor ever confirmed later on. It simply "fits" into Q Squared and nothing else.)
 
LeHah said:
Don't forget - there is a subtle but important difference between a story being part of the continuity and a story that simply doesn't interrupt or affect the surrounding continuity. For example, look at all those Star Trek books - while they work "in continuity" with what preceed and follow it, they never "really affect" the shows or movies. (Examples like Q possessing Gary Mitchell in Q Squared - which takes place during "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is an example of while it explains where Mitchell got his powers, its neither acredited nor ever confirmed later on. It simply "fits" into Q Squared and nothing else.)
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Absolutely correct, but in the case of those listed, they are actually considered continuity. ETM is well known, 24 is the "official" version of events between seasons 2 and 3, X-Files is a "collection of episodes" taking place at undisclosed times during a certain season. I'm not entirely sure about Stranglehold, but I know John Woo had a more than heavy hand in development and it's been called a sequel on several fronts.

Like I said, I need to find that interview regarding Terminator: Dawn of Fate, but once I dig it up, I'll let you know. I do know that the game was written with close supervision by the license holders, but as I said, I can't find the official interview where the game is declared "in continuity."
 
LeHah said:
Yeah, *theres* a response people can respect.
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Don't be ridiculous.

I didn't mind the third movie. It was okay. I was simply explaining the logic behind ignoring T3.

However, it doesn't matter to me what they choose to or not to do. It's their show and I'll sleep at night whether or not it includes T3 in the canon.
 
It wasn't great logic behind your reason. The people making the show are the same people who made T3.

They aren't even ignoring T3. They just want to have the show star Sarah Connor, and she died between T2 and T3, so they suggested the idea that maybe the complexities of time travel will end up having T3 be part of an alternate timeline if the show advances to the point where there'd be some conflict. If they were ignoring T3, they wouldn't even care about this. This is actually their way of confirming T3 still exists.
 
"alternate timeline" is just a sugar-coated way of saying "we're not considering it" so that way if conflicts do occur, they can just write it off as being part of an "alternate timeline" instead of the one the show is taking place in.

I digress, however, because I still don't care what they do. If they do a T1 & T2 timeline without any T3 elements, cool. If they include T3 in its entirety, whatever. I'll probably like it either way.
 
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