Raptor Model
- Thread starter JasonRocZ
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Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Well, going by firepower alone, we'd have to conclude that even the Raptor was, at best, a Hellcat. And that's insulting to the Raptor
.WC3 does come much later in the timeline, not to mention being much more oriented towards the casual player. So, its ships are much better armed all around. But if you look at their roles (at least, their theoretical roles - in practice, they did kinda melt together), the Hornet is definitely the Arrow. The Scimitar is the Hellcat (even though it, too, has less firepower than the Arrow... and even though it's so far superior to the Hellcat in every sense), and the Raptor is the Thunderbolt. The Longbow has no equivalent (it's a bomber, after all), and the Rapier... well, WC1 was definitely far better balanced than WC3 when it came to its superfighter, but the Rapier definitely was meant to be the superfighter - faster than Confed's light fighter, shielded better than the medium fighter, armed nearly as well as the heavy fighter.
Toast
Space Marshal
Well, going by firepower alone, we'd have to conclude that even the Raptor was, at best, a Hellcat. And that's insulting to the Raptor
WC3 does come much later in the timeline, not to mention being much more oriented towards the casual player. So, its ships are much better armed all around. But if you look at their roles (at least, their theoretical roles - in practice, they did kinda melt together), the Hornet is definitely the Arrow. The Scimitar is the Hellcat (even though it, too, has less firepower than the Arrow... and even though it's so far superior to the Hellcat in every sense), and the Raptor is the Thunderbolt. The Longbow has no equivalent (it's a bomber, after all), and the Rapier... well, WC1 was definitely far better balanced than WC3 when it came to its superfighter, but the Rapier definitely was meant to be the superfighter - faster than Confed's light fighter, shielded better than the medium fighter, armed nearly as well as the heavy fighter.
No argument about their theoretical roles
Wedge009
Rogue Leader
I absolutely agree with the decision not to change the fighter scaling, for better or for worse. Not only would it change the gameplay aspects of the campaign, but it would also require the resetting of the simulator scoreboards. Which, I'm sure, would upset a lot of people.
Toast
Space Marshal
I absolutely agree with the decision not to change the fighter scaling, for better or for worse. Not only would it change the gameplay aspects of the campaign, but it would also require the resetting of the simulator scoreboards. Which, I'm sure, would upset a lot of people.
Now that Sternenwind is playing again, what difference will it make?
I must say that the scaling of the models does not bother me, and I like the fact the team have kept to the original blueprints.
However, the resulting gun convergence is enough to make the Hornet and Raptor nigh on unplayable. By all means keep the models, but I'd really appreciate it if the guns fired in roughly the same pattern we see from the cockpit in WC1!
However, the resulting gun convergence is enough to make the Hornet and Raptor nigh on unplayable. By all means keep the models, but I'd really appreciate it if the guns fired in roughly the same pattern we see from the cockpit in WC1!
Toast
Space Marshal
As per previous discussion on the topic (several months ago?), this cannot really be solved by gun convergence alone. Flying the Gladius, the lasers are more useful at mid range than at point blank, since they're so far apart that small targets will still fly between them. The Raptor would have the same problem with its wingtip-mounted guns. The problem could also be solved by having the gunfire issue from an arbitrary point on the model instead of the model's gun barrels, but that would look weird. Some on the forum have said that they would not be weirded out by the appearance of gunfire issuing from some other point than the model's gun barrels. I'm in the camp that would be weirded out by it. Anyway, that debate is in most respects affected by the same arguments in both directions as scaling.
Eder
Mr. Standoff
We've actually got both of those things on the Raptor right now: not only do the guns converge at about half their maximum range, but the bullets no longer come out of the gun barrels as they used to prior to Ep 4. The bullets are now fired from an empty point in space that's closer to the center of the ship. The Hornet also works like this now.
So, clearly, it's impossible for everyone to be happy about this no matter what we do. Looking back, I regret that I wasted two sim slots to make those ships flyable... had I known that eventually we would get the ships to be accessible without the 'alswantsmoreships' cheat and have an online scoreboard for all of them and so forth, I would have put the two sim slots to a better use, since these two ships clearly won't ever please everyone at the same time... whereas, say, a Scimitar, would probably be seen by everyone as just another ship to have fun with in the sim and so on.
So, clearly, it's impossible for everyone to be happy about this no matter what we do. Looking back, I regret that I wasted two sim slots to make those ships flyable... had I known that eventually we would get the ships to be accessible without the 'alswantsmoreships' cheat and have an online scoreboard for all of them and so forth, I would have put the two sim slots to a better use, since these two ships clearly won't ever please everyone at the same time... whereas, say, a Scimitar, would probably be seen by everyone as just another ship to have fun with in the sim and so on.
Toast
Space Marshal
Hey, thanks for trying. I guess the "No Raptors were improved during the making" text in the credits is gone now? I haven't tried the Ep4 Raptor... I imagine it's not the WC1 Raptor by any means, but I'm at least curious to see what kind of a difference it makes...
Scimitar... 25 meters long, about the size of a Jalkehi, guns reasonably close to center... hmmm..... and true, the Scimitar was no star, so unlike the Raptor and Hornet, if flying the Scimitar is difficult, there'd be fewer upset expectations.
uh... are you offering? Is there a gun-heavy slug/Centaurian mud pig petition I can sign?
frostytheplebe
Seventh Part of the Seal
You can't win em all Eder. Personally I wouldn't have even bothered tunning the guns at all. I noticed the difference with the Hornet and Raptor and I have to say I wasn't too happy. I'd flown the pre-Ep4 raptor and enjoyed it, sure the guns were annoying, but they worked. I would have just said screw it, we made em this way, we're keepin em this way!
As for the innacuracy, I would have chalked that up to it being an older, less sophisticated fighter that is harder to fly.
As for the innacuracy, I would have chalked that up to it being an older, less sophisticated fighter that is harder to fly.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Well, yeah, the text is gone, but that's mainly because the text in the credits changes with every episode
.
Eder
Mr. Standoff
I tried to do that for years, it doesn't work.
Nope, it's too late to change anything now.uh... are you offering? Is there a gun-heavy slug/Centaurian mud pig petition I can sign?
Wedge009
Rogue Leader
"No red-shirts were harmed in the making of this add-on. But Quarto went insane." IIRC, that was from one of the earlier episodes.
What was in the other two episodes? I know the last one has something about Quarto beating Tempest to death with his brain, fried from lack of sleep after release day/night. :/
BTW, I don't see why there should be so much complaining about the gun convergence. Imagine how silly it would be if we were flying X-Wings or B-Wings, or other ships with guns ridiculously spaced out.
What was in the other two episodes? I know the last one has something about Quarto beating Tempest to death with his brain, fried from lack of sleep after release day/night. :/
BTW, I don't see why there should be so much complaining about the gun convergence. Imagine how silly it would be if we were flying X-Wings or B-Wings, or other ships with guns ridiculously spaced out.
Toast
Space Marshal
"No red-shirts were harmed in the making of this add-on. But Quarto went insane." IIRC, that was from one of the earlier episodes.
What was in the other two episodes? I know the last one has something about Quarto beating Tempest to death with his brain, fried from lack of sleep after release day/night. :/
BTW, I don't see why there should be so much complaining about the gun convergence. Imagine how silly it would be if we were flying X-Wings or B-Wings, or other ships with guns ridiculously spaced out.
Huh. That's a good point. The X-Wings in the X-Wing games were properly modeled and scaled relative to all the other ships, so TIE fighters really could fly in between your shots. It didn't happen all that often, but it was still pretty annoying whenever it did.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Well, that's the thing - my problem isn't that it makes gameplay harder, it's that the Raptor just didn't act like that the last time we flew it. I *like* the idea of such oddities making gameplay tougher in unique ways... look at the Bearcat's wide guns, the Phantom's maddening cockpit and so forth. The Standoff Raptor situation is different because I've flown them before and they didn't have such a flaw.
Toast
Space Marshal
True. But it goes in the other direction too. The Epee got a lot better and doesn't fly at all like it did in WC2 either, but I'm guessing that nobody is complaining about that because it gives us another great ship to fly.
A factor that wasn't relevant before (published length) is now very significant in the 3D engine. I would prefer to err on the side of more flyable, fun fighters than less, so of course I'd be happier as a pilot/gamer if the Epee kicked ass (windfall) and the Raptor did too (nostalgia). I suppose it balances out somewhat: we have two fighters that were good/superb that now suck, and we have one fighter that was deplorable that is now excellent. Scaling helps the Ferret also, somewhat.
There's also the quasi-continuity 'curiosity' of the Rapier II's size in Standoff; the Rapier II was reduced in length from 24 meters in WC1 to 19 meters in WC2 or thereabouts, right? IIRC those are the published lengths, and in Standoff, the Rapier II is far the better for its smaller dimensions. I don't know that Origin was being very careful at all about maintaining the size of the Rapier II between games; I haven't seen any evidence at all that the figure was changed for any real reason between the two games, but if it was just a braino as opposed to a conscious decision, it's an accident that serves the Rapier II very well in the way Standoff was implemented.
I would have said that such a total redesign wouldn't have made much mechanical sense, but that wouldn't quite be true; the F/A-18E Super Hornet for example looks superficially like its predecessors but it's a much bigger, much heavier aircraft and it doesn't share all that many parts with its forebear. My understanding is that it was more of a substantial redesign than a mere update. But if such were the (converse of the) case with the Rapier II, I don't remember seeing an official explanation one way or the other.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
The length of the Raptor actually *was* a problem well before its appearance in a 3D engine... people have been pointing out that the lengths of the Wing Commander I (and III and IV) ships were 'wrong' for as long as I can remember, since they clearly aren't accurate to how the ships are depicated in the midgames.
I haven't really noticed anything about the Epee... it's a ship that suffers more from a cult mentality than from any specific problems in Wing Commander II. The Epee is used for fewer missions than any other ship in a main series game and when it does appear it's never for any especially challenging task. It also doesn't face the same to-rescale-or-not-to-rescale issue, since the lengths given for ships in Wing Commander II *were* reasonable to how they appear on the flight line.
It's not an accident - all of Wing Commander II's lengths were generated by someone who knows how long a meter is. The ones that don't carry over all much better match how they're pictured compared to a person.
Actually in X-wing Alliance, the X-Wing's and B-Wing's have guns that will converge at the distance where your target is provided that you're actively targeting it. This makes the cannons much more useful and shredding tie fighters that much easier, because it's quite easy to get all four lasers to hit a Tie/I, and the pipper actually becomes useful.
Now, it would be quite awesome if it would be possible to implement such a system in standoff so the gladius wasn't as useless as it is. I'm not sure if it would take a lot of work, and if so, I'll stop bitching about the ships and grit my teeth whenever I need to fly the gladius. (I tried to avoid the gladius during the second play-through after the ep4 update whenever possible, having learned my lesson during the first play through. I'll go back and try to see if it doesn't suck quite as hard).
Now, it would be quite awesome if it would be possible to implement such a system in standoff so the gladius wasn't as useless as it is. I'm not sure if it would take a lot of work, and if so, I'll stop bitching about the ships and grit my teeth whenever I need to fly the gladius. (I tried to avoid the gladius during the second play-through after the ep4 update whenever possible, having learned my lesson during the first play through. I'll go back and try to see if it doesn't suck quite as hard).