Privateer 2 - Is it Wing Commander?

[PeteyG]

Groan.

Ignoring the games freaking name, there's plenty of "correlating factors" -- mentions of the Confederation, the reference to an encounter with the Kilrathi on the news broadcast, the mission where you discover a Talon... and of course the simple fact that Origin says so (explicitly).

Now, let me ask the opposite question -- how could Privateer 2 possibly *not* be in the Wing Commander universe? The entire game dynamic is the same... they could *never* get away with releasing it as a non Wing Commander game. So why the passion in yelping about it? Just admit that you don't like the game and leave it at that -- your personal feelings about it *shouldn't* affect where it stands in the WCU.

I don't want to flame up the trivia topic.

I personally really enjoyed the game. I don't hate a space shooter just because it's not Wing Commander. I mean, even if it's not a Wing Commander, it's definately a Privateer.

I played the game through twice. I don't recall any mentions of the Confederation. I didn't see the news report mentioning the Kilrathi (weren't the Kilrathi also in UO too? Does that make UO part of the WC universe?). And the talon.... What if the Star Trek people used a Battlestar Galactica viper in a ship graveyard scene? Would that make BG part of the ST universe?

I read about Privateer 2 in PCGamer years ago, and I was pretty psyched when they said that P2 would be set in the WC universe, just on the other side of Confed space or something. And that there would still be all kinds of references to the war and stuff. Well there weren't. There were a few references to Wing Commander stuff... but there was no serious effort to actually make Privateer 2 part of the Wing Commander universe on the game side. Yes, on the marketing side, there was an effort... but put a guy who hasn't read anything about Priv 2 beforehand... and he would NOT come to the conclusion that Priv 2 was part of the Wing Commander universe.

How is it NOT Wing Commander?
-Radically different form of commonplace interstellar travel.
-Totally different ship combat dynamic!
-It has nothing to do with anything Wing Commander-ish that came before it. No "oh yeah, I heard about that in Wing Commander I" type stuff.

I wouldn't describe myself as passionate about this. But I need SOMETHING concrete, some line of reasoning beyond Origin saying so before I can accept Priv 2 as part of the Wing Commander universe.

and I actually don't object to having trivia about it, since its so close to Wing Commander anyways.

 

[NapoleanAce]

My thoughts exactly. Great game though.

 

[Tarquinn]

I DO think that the P2 is part of the WC universe, just on the other side of that universe.

 

[Eder]

How is it NOT Wing Commander?
-Radically different form of commonplace interstellar travel.
-Totally different ship combat dynamic!
-It has nothing to do with anything Wing Commander-ish that came before it.

It's set more than a hundred years after Prophecy, in a part of space where humans, or whatever they are, have had little or no contact with Confed over the centuries.

That said, I fail to see how the form of commonplace interstellar travel or ship combat dynamic in the Tri-System must be the same as it was in Confederation space a century before.

Facts are worth a lot more than everyone's speculation on how space flight should work in a different part of the universe, during a different time period. So, unless someone has a real argument to prove P2 is not part of the WC universe, we have to go with the facts we have (mentions of Kilrathi, Confed, and the Talon).

I DO think that the P2 is part of the WCF universe, just on the other side of that universe.

Tarquinn hit the nail on the head there. I don't see why people refuse to accept that... P2's existance in some dark corner of the universe doesn't affect the rest of the WC games at all.

 

[Starkey]

And I´m pretty sure the Privateer manual or some Origin FAQ says something about the Tri-system "not being part of the Confederation yet". Well, if it was another universe they wouldn´t have said that.

 

[NapoleanAce]

It probably was mentioned in an Origin statement release -- but it makes sense, since they would be the biggest advocates of considering P2 a WC product.

PeteyG we're probably beating a dead horse...this argument will be around (and unresolved) as long as there are WC fans.

 

[PeteyG]

yah. Either side of the argument is grasping at some pretty thin straws I guess.

 

[Eder]

How is this argument unresolved? It's dead simple. Origin says P2 is WC. Orgin makes WC facts. We, the fans, can only create hypothesis... That's fine most of the time, but any hypothesis which contradict something the creators of the series said are automatically disproven.

Example 1
Random fan's theory: "If Maniac introduces himself to Blair on the Tiger's Claw, they probably first met at that moment, and not in the stupid WCA cartoon!!!!" Fact: Maniac and Blair knew each other before the beginning of WC1. See, even though you can come up with a dozen reasons why you think they didn't, they did.

Example 2:
Random fan's theory: "P2 is not WC because it doesn't feel like WC. And Origin saying it is is not good enough for me, because EA is evil and they're in it for the money!!!!!" Fact: There are WC references in P2. Origin says P2 is WC. Again, even though you can come up with a dozen reasons why you think P2 shouldn't be WC, Origin gave us a few facts which either lead us to believe or directly state that P2 is WC. And if Origin has no right to tell you what is WC and what isn't, I'm pretty sure you don't either.

No matter how much sense you think your argument makes, you don't get to decide which parts of Origin's creations are true and which aren't. If a WCP sequel came out, and it mentioned the Tri-System, would you claim this WCP sequel is not a WC game as well?

 

[NapoleanAce]

No matter how much sense you think your argument makes, you don't get to decide which parts of Origin's creations are true and which aren't. If a WCP sequel came out, and it mentioned the Tri-System, would you claim this WCP sequel is not a WC game as well?

Yes, that would make me a believer (even though it'd be impossible since P2 takes place over a century after). That's the main reason why we aren't quick to accept P2 into WCU--because nothing before or after (WCP came out afterwards) supports it. Origin may have created P2, but that doesn't mean we as the fans and consumers have to accept everything they proclaim. Those who play the game are each entitled to their own conclusions.

In "Heart of the Tiger" it's mentioned that Blair gave Hobbes his callsign, but in WC2 he actually ASKS him "why the callsign"--and we discover it was Doomsday who named him after the human philosopher.

In "Victory Streak" ORIGIN tells us that Flint's homeworld is Earth, but in the game we learn that it was Locanda IV.

In SO1 ... well SHEESH I could go on forever. The point is, contradiction or no contradiction, press release or no press release, the deciding factor is US, not them. After all, this whole forum we've engrossed ourselves in is regarding a series that, for all intents and purposes, has been dead for years. Origin is not an authority, so we are all free to our own devices.

 

[PeteyG]

I don't mean to be a twit, but could someone show me some reference to where Origin stated Privateer 2 was part of the Wing Commander universe?

Because I don't remember seeing anything like that in the box, manual, or in the game.

So would that make an after-the-fact statement by Origin backstage info? thus not being canon?

Perhaps I'm just used to different standards of canon... it seems that we bend over backwards here to incorporate as much contradictory info into WC canon as possible.

 

[Starkey]

After all, this whole forum we've engrossed ourselves in is regarding a series that, for all intents and purposes, has been dead for years. Origin is not an authority, so we are all free to our own devices.

It ain´t dead. We had a game released THIS YEAR. (BTW, can´t wait to receive my GBA + Prophecy. Have you mailed it, Chris Reid?)

Also, if you disconsider Origin as an authority and say that we are free to our own devices, then we will be thrown into chaos and anarchy and the series will really die. There are some contradictions in the game x books x movies, but that´s not a WC unique characteristic. Star Wars and Star Trek, among others, have plenty of contradictions also. Go ask them.

Bottom line is: Origin INVENTED WC. What they say IS the truth, no matter if you don´t like it. We can merely make some few interpretations and adjustments when we find a glitch, but that´s not official. Origin´s stories are official.

 

[Eder]

Origin may have created P2, but that doesn't mean we as the fans and consumers have to accept everything they proclaim. Those who play the game are each entitled to their own conclusions.

You accepting something or not never entered the equation. I, along with a little over 6 billion other people, don't give a damn about your opinion. This thread asks "Is P2 WC?" The answer is "Yes, P2 is WC." You don't need a thread to discuss wheter you like to believe that fact or not.

In "Heart of the Tiger" it's mentioned that Blair gave Hobbes his callsign, but in WC2 he actually ASKS him "why the callsign"--and we discover it was Doomsday who named him after the human philosopher.

IIRC, it was Downtown, not Doomsday.

The point is, contradiction or no contradiction, press release or no press release, the deciding factor is US, not them.

Your deciding factor might be you. Mine certainly isn't. Whoever started this thread wanted to know which arguments supported the fact that P2 is WC and why, apart from Origin saying so... I pointed out that the only real arguments we have on this subject are the references Origin included in P2, and that we have no reason, as in factual evidence, that would lead us to believe P2 isn't WC - P2 doesn't even contradict any other WC product, for crying out loud. As much as we, the fans, can individually think Origin made the wrong choices, we all know the official line on the subject. Your opinion or your theories have no impact on this at all.

Origin is not an authority, so we are all free to our own devices.

That doesn't make the least bit of sense. WC is Origin's creation, and it would remain to be, even if Origin were dead, as you claim. YOU don't get to decide what to do with OTHERS' creations.

You see, I was really sad when Wilson drifted out of view in the movie Cast Away. I like to believe Wilson just decided to go and live with the whales, since he though Tom Hanks wouldn't be his friend anymore once he got his normal life back. Could I create more speculative arguments to defend my view? Certainly, I'm mentally ill Does that mean my version is what actually happened? No. If you ask me "What happened to the volleyball dude?" I will reply "Whatever the film makers say."

 

[Tarquinn]

Just a quick question.

How do we know for sure that P2 happens about 100 years after WCP?
How do we know that the tri-system's calender equals the confederate calender?

I was under the impression that the story of P2 takes place roughly at the same time as the events of WC3-4. Just far, far away from them.
Also I was under the impression that the tri-system humans do not originate from earth. Different culture, weird names and ranks etc.

 

[NapoleanAce]

IIRC, it was Downtown, not Doomsday.

OOOPS - that's what I get for typing too fast.


As I said this argument will probably never end, no matter how foreign my views may be to the masses. If WC were all one big cut-n-dry movie, then yes, my "speculative arguments" would be null and void if they contradicted concrete facts presented in the movie. But it's not a movie, and the 'facts' within P2 aren't concrete enough. I myself need something more substancial than simply "Origin said so," but that's just ME.

 

[KrisV]

https://www.wcnews.com/webmirrors/tech/gamefaq/priv2.html

Does Privateer 2: The Darkening take place in the Wing Commander Universe?

Privateer 2: The Darkening takes place in an isolated section of the Wing Commander universe. The Tri-System is not currently a part of the Confederation.

And that settles it.

 

[PeteyG]

How was that FAQ distributed, if I might ask? Did it come with the game, or was it posted to the Internet?

Even if you do take Priv 2 to be part of the WC universe (which I'm slowly starting to accept. I just had absoltuely NO REASON to until I read that FAQ.)... you've got to admit that it's still kinda completly ridiculous of them to do that. I mean... why!? *sigh*

And what is canon for Wing Commander? Everything, it seems... even if it's something a developer scribbled on a napkin one night. I exaggerate greatly... but is it not an equally valid way of doing things if you only take what's actually in the games themselves as canon? I mean, it seems like a lot of the stuf that is taken for canon here (like the Vesuvius being constructed at L5 in WCIV... ) doesn't actually show up in the game at all.

Ya know?

 

[ChrisReid]

And what is canon for Wing Commander? Everything, it seems... even if it's something a developer scribbled on a napkin one night. I exaggerate greatly... but is it not an equally valid way of doing things if you only take what's actually in the games themselves as canon? I mean, it seems like a lot of the stuf that is taken for canon here (like the Vesuvius being constructed at L5 in WCIV... ) doesn't actually show up in the game at all.

It's pretty simple.. everything published or produced in any sort of official capacity by EA/Origin or under an official licensing agreement by another company through EA/Origin. So.. a developer scribbling something on a napkin is not canon (though it may provide good speculative information until such time that official sources confirm or deny such scribbles). When a developer includes something in a game, published something on an official website or creates an backstory document for official use, then you're dealing with canon. Canon extends far beyond the games themselves. If you look at it, a significant portion of the WC universe was shaped by novels. End Run and Fleet Action created the entire war condition that set the stage for Armada and Wing Commander 3. The choices detailed in the WC3 novel were carried on as the official choices for the background in WC4. It goes back and forth. P2 doesn't intermingle because there simply aren't yet enough WC products for it to do so. Old WC backstory intermingles with P2.. and it's only a matter of time before P2 stuff will intermingle with new WC times (granted, it might be some time since P2 is dated in the further future than the "present" main arc stopping point).

 

[Eder]

...you've got to admit that it's still kinda completly ridiculous of them to do that. I mean... why!? *sigh*

To cash in on the franchise, of course! I really don't think it was a wise decision either, but what I've been trying to say is that our opinions are beyond the point here. At the same time, I can't see a reason not to accept that P2 is WC. I mean, sure, it sounds silly that they'd make a game set in a different time and space than the rest of the series... but that's what happened, and there's nothing that tells us it isn't so.

This might all be part of a big evil plan to make the 15th WC game of the main series be played in the Tri-System, and Origin might be just waiting for the right time to make a stronger link between P2 and Confed <G> Nothing's impossible, so we can't simply choose where to take Origin's word for it... being the creators of the games, they know better by definition.

I exaggerate greatly... but is it not an equally valid way of doing things if you only take what's actually in the games themselves as canon?

Even if you do, you still have WC references in P2, though.

But it's not a movie, and the 'facts' within P2 aren't concrete enough. I myself need something more substancial than simply "Origin said so," but that's just ME.

We have something more substancial than "Origin said so", though... even though it really isn't necessary. Any data Origin includes in *their* creation or its documentation is "concrete enough" to be held true, moreso than any speculation *anyone* might make - P2 developers included. The game is a representation of someone's idea, and this someone isn't you or me, so it's not up to us to say which facts are right or wrong within the game.

Also I was under the impression that the tri-system humans do not originate from earth. Different culture, weird names and ranks etc.

Always had that impression myself, but I don't think there's any official word on the subject - and *this* is one of the cases in which we can speculate
I suppose that they could have originated from Earth and still be that different, if they had segregated themselves for the rest of humanity for long enough, and if the envirorments in the Tri-System were different enough. Spending centuries isolated on planets with different historical backgrounds, resources, life forms, etc. could probably lead to a wholly different development of culture, technology, hierarchy, social interactions, etc.

 

[PeteyG]

You have won me over. But I'm STILL gonna roll my eyes when someone says Priv 2 is Wing Commander.


I would wildly speculate that The Tri-Systems are the product of the hinted-at 'doomsday evacuation of Earth' that Barbara hinted at in the opening of WC3.

I forget how far back Tri-System history goes, but if it's more than the time before the Kilrathi War... I would suggest time travel as a possibility. : )

 

[Eder]

I think the Kilrathi war is a bit too late... any bunch of loonies could probably chart a ship as soon as mankind decided that space was the way to go. But admittedly, if the Tri-System pre-dates space travel, the P2 people can only be time travellers or not human at all. I'm not sure which possibility is the scariest.