New Tiger's Claw Design Incorporates It All (January 13, 2006)

Where was it said that the Hellcat was new...or the Arrow or Longbow?
They all have been seen in WCATV.
What was written, at least in the german handbook, is that the Hellcats we fly in WC3 are the newest ones...suggestion that their has been a Hellcat prior this version.

I think the main problem is that the makes never thought that someone would put together all the sources that are availble and tries to figure out what was when and where build, used or whatever.
 
gevatter Lars said:
think the main problem is that the makes never thought that someone would put together all the sources that are availble and tries to figure out what was when and where build, used or whatever.

Isnt this what LOAF's been doing all along?:confused:
 
HammerHead said:
So suddenly the brand new BuShips multi-role medium starfighter is just as old as the fighter it was destined to replace (Rapier II).
The Hellcat we known doesn't have to be the first variant... It could've been upgraded sometime during its existence. The first version might've been equipped with one laser and 2 mm of toilet-paper armor, for all we know. :p

In fact, with its mediocre stats, if the Hellcat were brand new in WC3, it'd be the worst brand new fighter ever. :p
 
@Dyret
Yes it is but that still dosn't mean that the companys that made the different sources made it to be fitting to each other.
 
I don't get it. Academy is NOT cannon. It's a jumble of Wc1, Wc2, and Wc3 written as a Saturday Morning cartoon. The Tiger's Claw has only the main landing strip plus two launch bays , and no Hellcats flew off of it. We should disregard it completely. I will complement you though, this is a first-rate model.
 
Well I won't discuss what is cannon and what is not. That kind of things I leave to others.
Still what do you base your launchbays on? I can't remember that I have seen any launchbays on the claw at all. Well their where these bays on the 3do (or what console it was) version but that ship was also so complete different from the other versions.
Oh well it will be a hard to incoperate as much as possible into it.
 
gevatter Lars said:
Well I won't discuss what is cannon and what is not. That kind of things I leave to others.
Still what do you base your launchbays on? I can't remember that I have seen any launchbays on the claw at all. Well their where these bays on the 3do (or what console it was) version but that ship was also so complete different from the other versions.
Oh well it will be a hard to incoperate as much as possible into it.


Every launching scene on the PC version of WC1 pretty much showed your ship launching through launchbays. Or is that not what you were referring to?
 
Ah sorry thought this part but didn't wrote it ^_^
We see that you as player launch through them but do we see them at the graphic of the ship and how did he came up with that the Bengal has two launchbays.
 
I don't get it. Academy is NOT cannon. It's a jumble of Wc1, Wc2, and Wc3 written as a Saturday Morning cartoon. The Tiger's Claw has only the main landing strip plus two launch bays , and no Hellcats flew off of it. We should disregard it completely. I will complement you though, this is a first-rate model.

What the hell are you talking about?

First, lets get it out of the way: if you're too stupid to spell a word or know what it means then you shouldn't be using it. A cannon is a projectile weapon, or more esoterically a verb meaning to use such a weapon. The word you're mindlessly fumbling around for is "canon" (with one n).

I'm always left mouth-agape at this particular gaffe (you've all seen the hilarious photograph from last year). People use only use this word in the context of science fiction in a sort of pseudo-highbrow sense... so when you mess it up it's just... even more awful. Like a thirteen year old repeating some horrible SAT word without looking it up. Is there actually a faction of idiots out there who think officiality has something to do with artillery?

It's actually a religious word: elements of texts the church considers real are said to be part of the 'canon'... those that are not are 'apocryphal'. At some point in the distant past (ie, perhaps the 1970s) a Star Trek fan decided it'd be funny to apply it to the dividing line between what a company considers an 'official' story and an 'unofficial' one. That is to say, it's a word joke that everyone takes seriously now.

Now, it means the same thing in our context as it does in its proper religious meaning -- what the church considers holy is canon, what the *license holder* considers official is canon.

Here's the rub: you're not the church, so the particular brand of rant you chose here is juvenile and ill-informed. No one in this thread has any right to decide what is and is not "canon". Because you wanted some kind of special catch all, intellectual word you managed to attack the single most well armored part of the dreadnaught: because no matter how ridiculous something is it's still "canon" if Electronic Arts says so.

... and they do say so, Mr. Gerald. Elements of Academy are referenced in later works -- particularly, numerous references in the Wing Commander novelization, in the Wing Commander Prophecy official guide and in the Terran Confederation Handbook.

So lets address what you mean instead of what you said: *should* Wing Commander Academy be 'canon'? Well, I'll argue yes... and unless you'd care to expound on your point (perhaps using your own vocabulary this time?), I'll be the only one able to cite facts.

Of any major Wing Commander product, Academy is the one that did the *most* research to get the visual elements 'right'. The Tiger's Claw is brought back several times (in SWC, in the movie and in Academy)... and Academy is the *only* one that bothered to bring back the original look -- it's also the only follow up series that remembered the right ships for the era... Scimitars, Dorkirs, Salthi, Dralthi and so forth. Heck, the entire series is based on something so obscure as the Wing Commander I & II Ultimate Strategy Guide (from 1991)! Academy is *alive* with continuity. It's an amazing amazing show in this regard -- it used the original Wing Commander visual elements for a mass marketing, mass media show in an era when the popular and well known Wing Commanders were WC3 and WC4. It's *amazing*.


(And heck, even your supposed facts about Wing Commander I alone are wrong -- the original game launches its fighters out of launch tubes, not bays. You run by a sign that points to "TUBES 6-9" and then shoot out a fighter sized trapzeoid tube (that has no external runway to speak of).
 
So suddenly the brand new BuShips multi-role medium starfighter is just as old as the fighter it was destined to replace (Rapier II).

The problem here is that I don't believe there's ever any reference to the Hellcat V being designed as a replacement for the Rapier II (and, of course, it isn't - it's older then the Rapier).

What was written, at least in the german handbook, is that the Hellcats we fly in WC3 are the newest ones...suggestion that their has been a Hellcat prior this version.

My complements to the quality of the German translation -- the original English version says the same thing: "The ship's responsive speed controls and quick turn radius make the latest Hellcat the best all-around ship in the fleet."

That's a clear indication that there was an earlier Hellcat V -- presumably the WC3 variant is the F-86D while an earlier one would be the 'A' or the 'B' (the designation is made up for the sake of example, do not repeat it as part of the holy writ).

I think the main problem is that the makes never thought that someone would put together all the sources that are availble and tries to figure out what was when and where build, used or whatever.

Not quite -- consider that there's a clear attempt to avoid the ships that have *explicit* service entry dates. We don't see Morningstars, Excaliburs, Rapier IIs, Crossbows, etc. in the series specifically for this reason.

The powers that be have a completely different take on Wing Commander as continuity. Fans look at it and try to fill in the blank areas... people writing the animated series have the same 'facts' as we do and they use them in the opposite way: to create a more complex universe with new information. They sat down and decided they wanted to use different ships from different eras... and then they checked to see which *could* exist at that time.

Every launching scene on the PC version of WC1 pretty much showed your ship launching through launchbays. Or is that not what you were referring to?

You shoot out of an individual launch tube in the PC version of Wing Commander I -- you run past a sign for "TUBES 6-9" in the 'red' part of the takeoff sequence and then you find yourself in a small enclosed tube rather than a large bay (it's the size of your fighter and has no external runway like the 'landing' area). We know there's 9+ tubes, too... which lines up just fine with the smaller, similarly shaped launch areas in the 'wings' of the 'Claw on Academy.

Still what do you base your launchbays on? I can't remember that I have seen any launchbays on the claw at all. Well their where these bays on the 3do (or what console it was) version but that ship was also so complete different from the other versions.

Super Wing Commander (and parts of Wing Commander Academy) use the two mid-ship bumps on the side of the ship to launch fighters. These may be what Fatcat is referring to (though he's wrong in that they're *not* what's used in Wing Commander I PC).

There's a third way of launching from the Tiger's Claw, too -- from the PC version's landing area. SNES Secret Missions features an extended takeoff cutscene in which your fighter is raised on an elevator to the 'front' bay before gliding down, externally, the length of the carrier.
 
As I see it, the original Hellcat V varient was in fact in service in the early 2650s (perhaps the Academy simulator mission does imply that it's new, or at least active). The original variant probably did have Lasers/Ions (or perhaps Lasers/Neutrons), but was superceeded by the faster, more agile, better-shielded Rapier II for the WC1-WC2 era. However, when better shields and armor became available as well as the loss of production facilities due to the Battle of Terra, it was seen as cheaper to upgrade the Hellcat than to rebuild the damaged Rapier yards and upgrade those. The Hellcat thus got its shields roughly doubled in proportion to armor/weapons strength, and was given Ion/Neutron guns.
 
The fact that there's a statue of a Hellcat at the Flight School suggests that they *aren't* especially new, though.

Lets face it -- beyond a *personal* desire to cling in some manner to the old 'fanon' that the WC3 ships are newer than the WC1 ships (which has already been shattered on its face!), there's absolutely no reason that the Hellcat has to be new to any particular era of Wing Commander.


I don't think we need the old story about refitting the fleet after the Battle of Terra, either -- there's certainly no requirement that Confed have only one type of medium fighter at any given time.
 
I think the fact that there is a statue at the Academy would seem to indicate that the Hellcat V not only existed during this time period, but there may also have been some special significance to the fighter.

In WC1, we see that the Scimitars are replaced by Rapier II's late in the game. We know that the Scimitar in WC1 was already a century old. I cannot see all of Confed waiting for the Rapier II to replace a fighter 100 + years old. It is more likely that the Premium medium fighter of the 40's was the Hellcat.

So we can see some sort of Progression...
CF-105 Scimitar
CF-117 Rapier
Hurricane
Wildcat
Corsair
Hellcat
F-44 Rapier II

With the exception of the Scimitar, which was stated as being retired in 2654, you would probably see all these fighters even in the end of the war. Rapier I's and Wildcat's may have taken part in the Battle of Earth.

An interesting parallel (most likely non-intentional) is that in WWII, the F6F Hellcat and the F4U Corsair were considered the replacements for the F4F Wildcat.
 
@Dragon1
Ähm I think it might be a tipo but didn't century mean 10 years and not 100 or did you just wanted to state that the Scimitar was realy old.


Anyway since this part seams to get much more attention than the 3D topic I will post my question here.


Did the Bengal class had any know AA defance or anti-Torpedo equipment like they where mentioned for other ships in the novels?
I think it was mentioned that capships had small massdriver turrets for shortrange defance and some kind of missile type defance against torpedos...can't remember it so clearly.
So if it had...what type of AA defance would it have?
 
gevatter Lars said:
@Dragon1
Ähm I think it might be a tipo but didn't century mean 10 years and not 100 or did you just wanted to state that the Scimitar was realy old.
A century is 100 years. A decade is 10 years
 
There can be made up tons of explenations,

a fighter needs to fit it's role, and a design creates a role, what if the hellcat and arrows were more versatile(there is a working arrow in that same academy episode) then the rapier? as in action radious, modularity etc.

The rapier was cutting edge technology. the hellcat more "normal" the enhancements a rapier has could have beeen worked out and integrated in the hellcat's design.
 
First, lets get it out of the way: if you're too stupid to spell a word or know what it means then you shouldn't be using it. A cannon is a projectile weapon, or more esoterically a verb meaning to use such a weapon. The word you're mindlessly fumbling around for is "canon" (with one n).
Since when do you harp on someone this much for making a typo? I admit it: I misspelled 'Canon' and didn't catch it when I checked my post. I'm well aware it usually refers to Church doctrine, it is also appropriate here. Many people have used 'Canon' in this sense before, including you.
The Tiger's Claw is brought back several times (in SWC, in the movie and in Academy)... and Academy is the *only* one that bothered to bring back the original look
In Academy, the Tiger's Claw looks vaguely similar to the Wc1 Tiger's Claw, except that the bow is just a bow, it doesn't have a landing strip.
And I will call them Tubes from now on.
 
Did the Bengal class had any know AA defance or anti-Torpedo equipment like they where mentioned for other ships in the novels?
I think it was mentioned that capships had small massdriver turrets for shortrange defance and some kind of missile type defance against torpedos...can't remember it so clearly.
So if it had...what type of AA defance would it have?

All Capital Ships seemed to have some sort of point-defense system. The Victory's guns extending from the Weapon Control Center are probably part of a small caliber defense grid to deal with missiles and torpedoes.

The Bengal class also appeared to carry flak guns that aren't listed in the ship's specs.
 
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