New Saga Rapier!

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
(I had written something very long, and very exacting towards sheldo86 - but LOAF not only beat me to the punch but said it far better than I ever could, as usual.)

Aww, heck - I just ripped my best line from Star Trek IV.

It's probably important to remember that I've been doing this for a very, very long time - and that my professional is also in flowerly, meaningless words. That experience isn'ta trump card of any sort... the occasional burst of eloquence *doesn't* make me right (though I think the facts speak for themselves in this case - Shellos' capitalizing my nickname makes the object of his axe-grinding to become clear even at a quick glance).

In all honesty, if *Kavok* had been the one pressing the issue I would have been a lot more open to discussing it - I've had a lot of experince with stick-before-carrot type arguments... a lot of my best friends here are people who argued with me tooth and nail and then forgave eachother afterwards (including Chris Reid, even). As it is, this feels more like a public relations discussion to me... and I have quite a bit of contempt for such situations. I've been an abject, hard-core mouthpiece for Wing Commander fans for ten years of no games... I'm very used to not caring how the general public reacts to what I'm doing. :)
 

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
On the other hand, i just thought of this:
What will happen when Arena comes out and the board gets swarmed with teh n00bs, kids and everything?

We will do what we have always done. Welcome everyone, let the goons filter themselves out and go on as always. It's always great to add new faces, but around here, to quote someone a little famous "the asshole threshold is much lower around here." So the people who don't have anything to add tend to move on on their own to places where they can continue to be morons.
 

Kavok

Spaceman
If it's a "late war" Rapier it should still be Laser/Particle. Unless there is a Meson blaster or something; I went straight from WC2 to Saga without WC3 so am not familiar with all the post-WC2 weapons.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
The Particle Gun replaced the Neutron Gun, so the Rapier II has neutron guns on WC1 and Particle guns on WC2.
 

Thunderbolt

Rear Admiral
The Particle Gun replaced the Neutron Gun, so the Rapier II has neutron guns on WC1 and Particle guns on WC2.

And thats another inconsistency between WC 2 and 3. Cause Hellcats and Longbows have neutron guns which should have been obsolote by 2669 :confused:

But in regards to that while WC1, 2 and 3 were based on the same story and fiction they were for the most part very seperate games with completely different ships, stats etc between each one. so I guess its no real suprise that there are contradictions there. So its not worth sweating over too much.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
And thats another inconsistency between WC 2 and 3. Cause Hellcats and Longbows have neutron guns which should have been obsolote by 2669 :confused:

That's not an inconsistency at all. The Longbows and Hellcats we see on WC3 are old ships. It's not Confed could simply stop its entire fleet so they can repalce the guns of every single fighter.

Not only that, but rember the weapon stats change from game to game, which means that the performance also varies.

But in regards to that while WC1, 2 and 3 were based on the same story and fiction they were for the most part very seperate games with completely different ships, stats etc between each one. so I guess its no real suprise that there are contradictions there. So its not worth sweating over too much.

I find WC1 to be very similar to WC2 in how the ships look, the real difference comes with WC3, with a radically different design. I disagree with you in regard to guns and ships, I think WC is very consistent. You've got the light fighter/lasers combo on WC1, WC3, WC4 and WCP. The mace from WC2 shows up on WC4, the stormfire from WC4 shows up on WCP, and so on. Not to mention the Thunderbolt and the Excalibur, showing up on WC3, WC4 and WCSO.
 
By the same token, shouldn't "laser cannon" be obsolete by WCIV or WC:p?

They're not contradictory at all! That's like assuming that rifles are obsolete since the models used in WWII are out of date...

The weapons would get redesigned and revisited during the course of a multi-decade war, right?
 

Thunderbolt

Rear Admiral
That's not an inconsistency at all. The Longbows and Hellcats we see on WC3 are old ships. It's not Confed could simply stop its entire fleet so they can repalce the guns of every single fighter.

Hmmm I always thought that hellcats and Longbows in WC3 were new because they didnt appear in WC2 and that they were completely different. And there was only a few years in between the storyline for 2 and 3 so I wouldnt have thought there was enough time to have a new generation of fighters become obsolete in 4 years. I suppose those fighters may have existed at the time of WC2 but as far as i know we dont know that.

WC2 and 3 were quite different in art (kilrathi ships etc) so I guess i may have over extrapolated in regards to weapons but 3 and 4 have very similiar game engines so I'm not trying to say theres differences between those 3 and 4. More 2 and 3 i was getting at.
 

Kavok

Spaceman
Sirs,

The justification for the rarity of 'older' fighters in the WC3 timeline is usually the massive losses sustained by both sides in the Battle of Earth- Standoff era, especially on the Kilrathi side.

Having said that, I will accept that there were Hellcats and Longbows etc. in the time of WC2, but why have so many fighters? If the Sabre and Thunderbolt, for example, have a level of contemporaneity, why have different parts/spares/fuelling rigs/different training etc? The greater 'mixing' of fighters from different game 'eras' makes little sense the more fighter types one wants in service at any one time. Having some limited overlap would be great for the story, but it's a bit of a mess when one thinks about it.

What would be great is to have a chart of in-service / retired dates for all the fighters in WC. Then we could see when Confed and Kilrah were the best standardisers and the worst.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
The Particle Gun replaced the Neutron Gun, so the Rapier II has neutron guns on WC1 and Particle guns on WC2.

It all depends on the Rapier II model, and they can co-exist - for example, we see F-44Cs (2 Laser, 2 Neutron) operating in End Run, simultaneous to the F-44Gs (2 Particle, 2 Laser) flown in Wing Commander II. And who knows when the Arena Rapiers (V, W and X, I *think*) enter service - they hae three different gun loadouts, too: Blade - 2 Tachyon, 2 Meson, Vanguard - 2 Neutron, 2 Laser, Cavalier - 2 Ionic Pulse, 2 Laser. The Saga guys could make up a Rapier-H or a Rapier-J with an entirely new set of guns without going out of bounds.

They're not contradictory at all! That's like assuming that rifles are obsolete since the models used in WWII are out of date...

The difference is that we're directly told several times that Confed is working on replacing the Neutron Gun with the Particle Cannon... it just never actually happens (in fact, both are still around in Arena in 2701).

Hmmm I always thought that hellcats and Longbows in WC3 were new because they didnt appear in WC2 and that they were completely different.

Remember that there's a huge, many-front war going on - not every ship will serve on every carrier. The ships were, of course, 'created' for Wing Commander III... but their since-established history has had them appear as far back as 2654 on the Wing Commander Academy show (based on its numerical designator alone, the Arrow could be older than the Hornet).

And there was only a few years in between the storyline for 2 and 3 so I wouldnt have thought there was enough time to have a new generation of fighters become obsolete in 4 years.

I think it's barely over two years - Special Operations 2 ends in April 2667 and Wing Commander III starts in May 2669.

Here's something to think about - we actually *do* see an entire set of 'next generation' fighters rolled out between 2667 and 2669, none of which are the ships in Wing Commander III: Phantom, Morningstar, Wraith, Banshee and Crossbow. Confed's premiere units may well be flying these newer spacecraft.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
(Kavok posted while I was putting mine together, apologies for the double-post)

The justification for the rarity of 'older' fighters in the WC3 timeline is usually the massive losses sustained by both sides in the Battle of Earth- Standoff era, especially on the Kilrathi side.

Which isn't really a great explanation - the Battle of Earth *didn't* have this effect. In actuality, the reason we only see four fighter types in Wing Commander III is because we serve on a carrier that has four fighter squadrons.

Imagine telling a World War II story from the point of view of someone in the 8th Air Force - he's going to see a lot of Flying Fortresses, Mustangs and Thunderbolts... which doesn't mean that the allies don't have dozens and dozens of different aircraft in combat.


Having said that, I will accept that there were Hellcats and Longbows etc. in the time of WC2, but why have so many fighters? If the Sabre and Thunderbolt, for example, have a level of contemporaneity, why have different parts/spares/fuelling rigs/different training etc? The greater 'mixing' of fighters from different game 'eras' makes little sense the more fighter types one wants in service at any one time. Having some limited overlap would be great for the story, but it's a bit of a mess when one thinks about it.

Well, for one thing we know that parts are interchangable - there's a point in the Wing Commander IV novel where Pliers notes that the wing spar on the Rapier is the same as the one on the Thunderbolt.

We may *play* Wing Commander as if each ship is for single-handedly destroying the galaxy, but the actual functioning background can't work this way... there's all sorts of 'realistic' factors that just don't enter into our heads when we're playing the game. What if the Crossbow has a longer operational range than the Longbow? Or the Hellcat can take off from shorter runways than the Morningstar? What if Thunderbolts need less maintenance than Banshees? Etc., etc.

Also, consider that there's not going to be a strong desire to close a factory during a desparate war. When the entire frontier is based on attrition you can't shut down your Arrow factory for a year to retool it to build Epees. You're going to build a separate production line for the new ship without altering the current needed flow of reinforcements.

And then think back to the World War II analogy... even for the United States alone you have an almost *completely* different set of aircraft based on theater. Mustangs and Thunderbolts over Europe and Hellcats and Corsairs in the Pacific. To a 'game player' they're all fairly eequivalent aircraft... but they have different service roles and different production requirements. Even in the Pacific you'll find different types of aircraft serving on fleet carriers, escort carriers and then ground bases and so forth.

What would be great is to have a chart of in-service / retired dates for all the fighters in WC. Then we could see when Confed and Kilrah were the best standardisers and the worst.

If someone wants to start this, I'll be happy to critique and/or help out.
 

Nob Akimoto

Rear Admiral
(Kavok posted while I was putting mine together, apologies for the double-post)



Which isn't really a great explanation - the Battle of Earth *didn't* have this effect. In actuality, the reason we only see four fighter types in Wing Commander III is because we serve on a carrier that has four fighter squadrons.

Imagine telling a World War II story from the point of view of someone in the 8th Air Force - he's going to see a lot of Flying Fortresses, Mustangs and Thunderbolts... which doesn't mean that the allies don't have dozens and dozens of different aircraft in combat.

It's a pity there's not more information on things like component commonality though between fighters and bombers in Wing Commander, it seems like it'd be a great place to start with a service/entry chart. Perhaps something like seeing if a certain older fighter (ex. Hellcat V) might have been fitted with engines built for a newer generation craft.

I think it's also worth bearing in mind with the WWII analogy that aircraft shared a gigantic number of common parts, I mean just look at the number of aircraft that used a version of the Roll- Royce Merlin XX. A version of the Halifax, Lancaster, Beaufighter and Mustang used the same basic engine, if we go to the Merlin family as a whole, you have a whole range of aircraft that look completely different, but had fairly standarized parts that could be used for maintenance.
 

Thunderbolt

Rear Admiral
Here's something to think about - we actually *do* see an entire set of 'next generation' fighters rolled out between 2667 and 2669, none of which are the ships in Wing Commander III: Phantom, Morningstar, Wraith, Banshee and Crossbow. Confed's premiere units may well be flying these newer spacecraft.

Hmmm that is a good point. But the other thing is if hellcats are obsolete in WC3 why are they flying off the Lexington in WC4. And why are they flying off the flagship Vesuvius if confed has state of the arc Wraiths and Morningstars? Admitably the hellcats did have particle cannons at this stage so they were more advanced (maybe a newer model) but the arrow and thunderbolt barely show up at all. So maybe those last 2 were obsolete but I find it hard to accept that the arrow would be 'put out to pasture' as it was an awesome fighter to fly.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
It's a pity there's not more information on things like component commonality though between fighters and bombers in Wing Commander, it seems like it'd be a great place to start with a service/entry chart. Perhaps something like seeing if a certain older fighter (ex. Hellcat V) might have been fitted with engines built for a newer generation craft.

That would be nice to know. It's worth noting that we do see this commonality somewhat - think of the ships in Privateer, which all share quite a few different types of components (including engines, shield generators and so forth). Also, when we visit the Landreich in the novels we see all kinds of fighters put together from pieces (there's a Ferret with a Sabre engine and such).

Hmmm that is a good point. But the other thing is if hellcats are obsolete in WC3 why are they flying off the Lexington in WC4. And why are they flying off the flagship Vesuvius if confed has state of the arc Wraiths and Morningstars? Admitably the hellcats did have particle cannons at this stage so they were more advanced (maybe a newer model) but the arrow and thunderbolt barely show up at all. So maybe those last 2 were obsolete but I find it hard to accept that the arrow would be 'put out to pasture' as it was an awesome fighter to fly.

It's not that they're obsolete - it's that they're the current version of an older design. The United States flies several types of aircraft that hav ebeen around for more than a generation which are still a major part of modern warfare (B-52s and A-10s, in particular). These designs have been continually updated and enhanced over time.

The novel actually explains those particular Hellcats, too, saying that Tolwyn's forces have been developing an upgraded 'Black Hellcat' which uses some hybrid Kilrathi technology. We know that regular Hellcats are still in production in a current variant, too, as the Lexington had a completely fresh fighter complement.

The Arrow is certainly still around -- there's three new types in Arena, which takes place twenty years after Prophecy (we actually see new cloaking Arrows in WCIV... which may well become the special 'Arrow Eclipse' in Arena).
 

Dyret

Super Carrot!
That it's from an official product (games, novels, manuals, the movie, CCG, academy) I would think. :)
 
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