F4U Corsair
Spaceman
A confed code named based on the Kilrathi Prophecy, what did they call themselve then? the "alligned?"
Nephilim vs. Steltek
- Thread starter F4U Corsair
- Start date
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
... 'Nephilim' isn't from the Kilrathi Prophecy, it's from the Old Testament.
Colonel Sanders
Spaceman
A race of Fallen/Dark angels (depending on your translation)
X_FIREFALCON
Spaceman
Hmmm...
Just a few things I saw here that I thought I'd comment on:
After giving it some thought, I agree with Corsair about the definition of "Mother Creature." It probably applies to their queen. But as insects, are we to assume there are many colonies and many queens? Would one queen be the "Mother Creature" to all the colonies, or would it just be the queen of each individual colony, so that there would be many "Mother Creatures?"
To my knowledge, in religious texts, I believe the term "Nephilim" doesn't refer to the Fallen Angels themselves, but rather to their progeny - a half-angel, half-human abomination, and (as at least some of the stories go) the reason for the Flood (a deity's way of purging the world of these supernatural impurities that were/are allegedly against the grand divine plan). Not a religious nut myself, so I can't go into too much detail...just convey what I've read (in a few places, I've even read that this is the reason some Islamic people cover up their women...though I haven't read decent enough sources, it's perhaps an interesting thing to ponder about other religions and cultures...I apologize if I'm totally off on this, though - just conveying what I've read).
So what do the Nephilim in these ancient texts and the Nephilim in Wing Commander Prophecy have in common? Well, that's up to each person to figure out for himself/herself. Maybe nothing, maybe everything...I myself don't know.
LOAF is right (hey, when is he not?!) - in the game, the Confederation and the Confederation ALONE call the invading bugs "the Nephilim." In keeping with the Kilrathi Prophecy, the correct Kilrathi identification for this adversary would probably be "the Star Gods." And the bugs refer to themselves only as one of "the Aligned Races." All mean the same thing, but for them to hold any meaning and for us to have any discussion on them without confusing ourselves, we have to keep the origin of these terminologies clear. The bugs of the Aligned appeared in Kilrah, and so the Kilrathi spooked and started spouting their worries of Star Gods and Kn'Thrak (Armageddon, only on a grander scale). Once the crew of the Midway encountered the race for a few missions, Zero was the one who started telling the ghost stories of the biblical (were they even mentioned in the Bible?) Nephilim...and I guess it became an identification of the race in Confed's eyes ever since.
The bugs are likely the fulfillment of the Kilrathi Prophecy...it's unclear whether they figure into Terran Prophecy (Revelations?) at all, though.
OK...next thing:
Exarch, that's a pretty interesting consideration you brought up...the Steltek AS one of the Aligned. Boy, that would be a scary thought. Kind of an interesting point to ponder.
Personally, I don't know if I can lend anything to support it, unfortunately, cool an idea as it is. From what little I've read of the Steltek, they seem to like keeping to themselves and tend to be more peaceful (or at the very least reclusive and independent, rather than meddling in the affairs of other races). The bugs, on the other hand, seem to be more expansionist and violent, more inclined to do what they want when they want, start fights with whoever they want, and erase entire civilizations for maybe even simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time (unless there's more to the story that we were never told). It would probably figure that any other races of the Aligned would share this sentiment which might make it difficult for the Steltek to fit the mold. But nonetheless, that's a very interesting point you added there...something fun to think about, if nothing else. I like it!
Meson, based on what Haesslich outlined below, it'd be hard to assume that the Steltek would automatically win outright (though again, this is just a matter of opinion...none of us can say definitively; I'm just sharing my thoughts again). So little is known of both races, that it's difficult to determine how they would compare to each other. But there also seem to be some tie-ins with wormhole technology, the age of the two races, the fact that neither (probably) are humanoid...if they are not part of the same mix, one might think there has to be something that relates the two in their past histories.
There's actually a few more things to think about at this point then:
Could the Steltek have maybe created the Nephilim (and/or Aligned) at some point, whether intentionally or accidentally?
Could the Nephilim/Aligned have been the reason for the fall of the Steltek Empire? It's implied something in their endless pursuit of perfection and development caused its decline...could the Nephilim/Aligned have been that cause?
Could the Steltek maybe be hiding from the Nephilim/Aligned at the center of the galaxy?
Could the Nephilim/Aligned actually be maybe a group of Steltek that got separated during the decline of the empire and physically changed in the cold void of space, kind of like the Morlocks in The Time Machine? Or maybe they were violent separatists from the empire who ignited a feud way back when and were exiled? That could figure into the whole Flood scenario too perhaps...hmmm....
Well, sorry for that tangent...off to something else:
Of course, from Privateer (again, a game I haven't played), we know that Steltek technology is far ahead of Confed technology. And from Prophecy, we know that Confed seems to be able to combat the bugs fairly effectively. By that same token, though, there's no guarantee that Confed has ever witnessed the extent of the technological might that is the Nephilim, let alone that of the Aligned Races.
I still stand behind my original thought....it'd be hard to determine just who would win if we put these 2 against each other. But based on what we know (or have seen) about both races, I imagine it has the potential to be a pretty ugly match.
I definitely agree with you, though, Meson...at least as it stands now, the Aligned (or the Nephilim bugs) would probably be the ones to provoke any kind of armed aggression in such a conflict.
Many here favor the older battles between the Confederation and the Kilrathi. While those were good times, I myself have become more of a fan of the Nephilim story, because in my mind, it holds some kind of deeper meaning. All the races we know of are scared to death of this new enemy...even Blair himself seems really troubled by this new threat before it claims him (either as a POW or as a casualty).
Many stories focus on a battle between good and evil, usually with some pawns wedged in-between which play for either side. The ultimate good is often depicted as a mysterious, benign, and arguably lazy force of some small number which seems to be more interested in watching than doing anything...and the ultimate evil is often dipicted as an incomprehensibly violent and maliciously active force of exceedingly overwhelming number.
If you translated this over to Wing Commander, what races would better fit these categories than the Steltek and the Nephilim/Aligned? By even mentioning such things as "darkness," "evil," "Kn'Thrak," "Nephilim," etc....it suggests that the Aligned might very well be that epitome of evil. The Steltek just seem to fit the role of their opposite...
That's why I think it'd be an ugly battle...maybe I'm wrong. What do the rest of you guys (and gals, for any that might be present) think?
Your fellow fan,
FireFalcon ~};^
Just a few things I saw here that I thought I'd comment on:
After giving it some thought, I agree with Corsair about the definition of "Mother Creature." It probably applies to their queen. But as insects, are we to assume there are many colonies and many queens? Would one queen be the "Mother Creature" to all the colonies, or would it just be the queen of each individual colony, so that there would be many "Mother Creatures?"
To my knowledge, in religious texts, I believe the term "Nephilim" doesn't refer to the Fallen Angels themselves, but rather to their progeny - a half-angel, half-human abomination, and (as at least some of the stories go) the reason for the Flood (a deity's way of purging the world of these supernatural impurities that were/are allegedly against the grand divine plan). Not a religious nut myself, so I can't go into too much detail...just convey what I've read (in a few places, I've even read that this is the reason some Islamic people cover up their women...though I haven't read decent enough sources, it's perhaps an interesting thing to ponder about other religions and cultures...I apologize if I'm totally off on this, though - just conveying what I've read).
So what do the Nephilim in these ancient texts and the Nephilim in Wing Commander Prophecy have in common? Well, that's up to each person to figure out for himself/herself. Maybe nothing, maybe everything...I myself don't know.
LOAF is right (hey, when is he not?!) - in the game, the Confederation and the Confederation ALONE call the invading bugs "the Nephilim." In keeping with the Kilrathi Prophecy, the correct Kilrathi identification for this adversary would probably be "the Star Gods." And the bugs refer to themselves only as one of "the Aligned Races." All mean the same thing, but for them to hold any meaning and for us to have any discussion on them without confusing ourselves, we have to keep the origin of these terminologies clear. The bugs of the Aligned appeared in Kilrah, and so the Kilrathi spooked and started spouting their worries of Star Gods and Kn'Thrak (Armageddon, only on a grander scale). Once the crew of the Midway encountered the race for a few missions, Zero was the one who started telling the ghost stories of the biblical (were they even mentioned in the Bible?) Nephilim...and I guess it became an identification of the race in Confed's eyes ever since.
The bugs are likely the fulfillment of the Kilrathi Prophecy...it's unclear whether they figure into Terran Prophecy (Revelations?) at all, though.
OK...next thing:
Exarch, that's a pretty interesting consideration you brought up...the Steltek AS one of the Aligned. Boy, that would be a scary thought. Kind of an interesting point to ponder.
Personally, I don't know if I can lend anything to support it, unfortunately, cool an idea as it is. From what little I've read of the Steltek, they seem to like keeping to themselves and tend to be more peaceful (or at the very least reclusive and independent, rather than meddling in the affairs of other races). The bugs, on the other hand, seem to be more expansionist and violent, more inclined to do what they want when they want, start fights with whoever they want, and erase entire civilizations for maybe even simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time (unless there's more to the story that we were never told). It would probably figure that any other races of the Aligned would share this sentiment which might make it difficult for the Steltek to fit the mold. But nonetheless, that's a very interesting point you added there...something fun to think about, if nothing else. I like it!
Meson, based on what Haesslich outlined below, it'd be hard to assume that the Steltek would automatically win outright (though again, this is just a matter of opinion...none of us can say definitively; I'm just sharing my thoughts again). So little is known of both races, that it's difficult to determine how they would compare to each other. But there also seem to be some tie-ins with wormhole technology, the age of the two races, the fact that neither (probably) are humanoid...if they are not part of the same mix, one might think there has to be something that relates the two in their past histories.
There's actually a few more things to think about at this point then:
Could the Steltek have maybe created the Nephilim (and/or Aligned) at some point, whether intentionally or accidentally?
Could the Nephilim/Aligned have been the reason for the fall of the Steltek Empire? It's implied something in their endless pursuit of perfection and development caused its decline...could the Nephilim/Aligned have been that cause?
Could the Steltek maybe be hiding from the Nephilim/Aligned at the center of the galaxy?
Could the Nephilim/Aligned actually be maybe a group of Steltek that got separated during the decline of the empire and physically changed in the cold void of space, kind of like the Morlocks in The Time Machine? Or maybe they were violent separatists from the empire who ignited a feud way back when and were exiled? That could figure into the whole Flood scenario too perhaps...hmmm....
Well, sorry for that tangent...off to something else:
Of course, from Privateer (again, a game I haven't played), we know that Steltek technology is far ahead of Confed technology. And from Prophecy, we know that Confed seems to be able to combat the bugs fairly effectively. By that same token, though, there's no guarantee that Confed has ever witnessed the extent of the technological might that is the Nephilim, let alone that of the Aligned Races.
I still stand behind my original thought....it'd be hard to determine just who would win if we put these 2 against each other. But based on what we know (or have seen) about both races, I imagine it has the potential to be a pretty ugly match.
I definitely agree with you, though, Meson...at least as it stands now, the Aligned (or the Nephilim bugs) would probably be the ones to provoke any kind of armed aggression in such a conflict.
Many here favor the older battles between the Confederation and the Kilrathi. While those were good times, I myself have become more of a fan of the Nephilim story, because in my mind, it holds some kind of deeper meaning. All the races we know of are scared to death of this new enemy...even Blair himself seems really troubled by this new threat before it claims him (either as a POW or as a casualty).
Many stories focus on a battle between good and evil, usually with some pawns wedged in-between which play for either side. The ultimate good is often depicted as a mysterious, benign, and arguably lazy force of some small number which seems to be more interested in watching than doing anything...and the ultimate evil is often dipicted as an incomprehensibly violent and maliciously active force of exceedingly overwhelming number.
If you translated this over to Wing Commander, what races would better fit these categories than the Steltek and the Nephilim/Aligned? By even mentioning such things as "darkness," "evil," "Kn'Thrak," "Nephilim," etc....it suggests that the Aligned might very well be that epitome of evil. The Steltek just seem to fit the role of their opposite...
That's why I think it'd be an ugly battle...maybe I'm wrong. What do the rest of you guys (and gals, for any that might be present) think?
Your fellow fan,
FireFalcon ~};^
Edfilho
Cry some more!
Falcon, I didn't mean to forbid anyone from touching this subjects... My poit is that we can hardly debate these issues while trying to ascertain what is certain and canon. All we know is what HAesslich listed above. We can of course trade ideas and theories, but they could all be equally right or wrong... so, I think that what i'm trying to say is that we cannot really get to any definite conclusion.
Anyway, I'd avoid relating the Steltek to ANY other race in the WCU, considering the few facts we have. And it would be really strange to list them as one of the Alligned, although an interesting possibility would be if they were comtemporaries of the Race that dominates the Aliigned ones.
Lemme explain: In Star Control 2, there is a race (the Ur'quan) who either emprision or enslave all other sentient species they meet. They were slaves in the past, and so they do that in order to assure that they'll never be slaves again. Wht we have in the end are several races working as slaves for the Ur'quan. A similar thing might explain the Alligned people. The bugs could be one of the slave races, or the master race themselves. There is another example, the Covenant in Halo. I know liitle about their history, but there are clearly several different races working together in varying degrees of hierarchical position.
MAYBE the Steltek went away to avoid making wars with the Master race of the alligned people, or any other option.
Disclaimer: NOTHING IN THIS POST IS CANON, it's just speculations
Anyway, I'd avoid relating the Steltek to ANY other race in the WCU, considering the few facts we have. And it would be really strange to list them as one of the Alligned, although an interesting possibility would be if they were comtemporaries of the Race that dominates the Aliigned ones.
Lemme explain: In Star Control 2, there is a race (the Ur'quan) who either emprision or enslave all other sentient species they meet. They were slaves in the past, and so they do that in order to assure that they'll never be slaves again. Wht we have in the end are several races working as slaves for the Ur'quan. A similar thing might explain the Alligned people. The bugs could be one of the slave races, or the master race themselves. There is another example, the Covenant in Halo. I know liitle about their history, but there are clearly several different races working together in varying degrees of hierarchical position.
MAYBE the Steltek went away to avoid making wars with the Master race of the alligned people, or any other option.
Disclaimer: NOTHING IN THIS POST IS CANON, it's just speculations
Edfilho
Cry some more!
Dyret, I really can't say, because there are like 4 or 5 books... But I'd think that the master race is never one in the front lines.
they always send the slaves to fight for them... But hey, i'm not even sure that there is one master race behind the covenant, they may be like some big alliance.
they always send the slaves to fight for them... But hey, i'm not even sure that there is one master race behind the covenant, they may be like some big alliance.
F4U Corsair
Spaceman
Dyret said:
I offer another possibility to the both... If anyone has heard of Species 8472 from ST, or the breen then you know that they each live as one w/ thier ships. Perhaps the Mother Creature for the Nephilim is the Dreadnought, a carrier, or maybe I was right the first time, there is always the possibility I was completely wrong. I mean we know very little about the Nephilim ships, cept that when you see Blair on the inside of one... it does look strangly organic.
as for the Covenant, I believe that they are a fuedal type people with a sort of Cast system, perhaps the Master race there is one from a cast we just havent seen yet.
Also, I know that pretty much no one can really answer logically on the vs. threads, but I always thought thats what made them interesting, speculation, introduction of new ideas and possibilities... its certainly more interesting to me then plain simple facts. No one has to agree w/ me, but thats how i think.
X_FIREFALCON
Spaceman
Hey again
Hey again, fellas.
As for the side discussion of Halo, I think there's actually a group of leaders of the Covenant - the Prophets. I think they're going to be (at least to some extent) in Halo 2 (coming to XBox next month), and I believe they're the essential "leaders" of the Covenant...so it's nothing that we've seen in the first Halo.
Don't know what to tell you about the grunts. They say some pretty funny stuff. I always like how I'd latch a plasma grenade onto one of them and they'd yell something like, "Wha-ha-ha! Not again!" I just stood there, scratching my head, wondering just how many plasma grenades that poor sap had stuck to him that day...
Anyway...back to Wing Commander:
Edfilho, yeah, I know...your whole point is that we can't really decide a right or wrong answer to this because there's not enough that's actually KNOWN about it. And I don't think anyone here can argue with you there. I myself am not here to debate the topic, or try to beat it into anybody's head that I'm right and they're wrong...I just think this is a neat thing to give some thought to and comment on. I guess it started out with the intention of turning into a debate, but I see it more as a thought-provoking topic - something for us to all look at and go "hmm" about.
Well, at least that's what I'm getting out of this....I just find it more fascinating to discuss such a topic as this than to argue some other topic like a battle between the Tiger's Claw and the Concordia. Mind you, I mean no offense to the people debating in that thread, but it just doesn't seem as exciting to me...everyone's pulling out numbers (half are from authentic sources while the rest are fabricated, obviously - it bears some slight resemblance of the U.S. presidential race or a movie like Fahrenheit 9/11), and discussing mixing up functioning and non-functioning weapons, crew competency, fighter ready-lines... drawing in hypotheticals about armor then and now and enough what-if scenarios to give a fella a headache...
...whereas the topic we have here requires a bit more thought, mental creativity, a careful analysis of the few known facts because so much has been left as a big question mark...
Will there ever be a conclusive answer to the question posed? Ehhh probably not. But it allows more freedom for the brain to think about this than spitting out facts and yelling at people who don't want to accept them or try to find the little variables that could be exceptions to the otherwise universal rule and logical conclusion.
Questions like this turn into more than just the originally proposed this versus this topic because there's more variables than in other versus discussions...when you start to compare and contrast the two, you start noting all the potential similarities and differences, strengths and weaknesses....the rest is left to the imagination.
Perhaps we should have a label at the very top that says "nothing here is cold, hard fact." But then by that same token...we're talking about a futuristic war we have with oversized cats and incredibly overgrown bugs, all flying around in these ships propelled by God knows what and drawing in a variety of Physics and Engineering models that have to be somewhat fabricated because they don't (at least to a large extent) exist in the world as we know it now, and even if they did, the science does not yet exist to figure out how to tap into them. So we're trying to draw a distinction between the fact-fiction and the fiction-fiction...all I'm saying is that I think it's more interesting to ask the questions there aren't any absolute answers to rather than arguing over facts.
The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to think the potential exists within the Aligned to defeat the Steltek...but again, as with just about everything else in this thread, this is all just a matter of opinion.
Anyone else with any more intriguing thoughts?
- FireFalcon ~};^
Hey again, fellas.
As for the side discussion of Halo, I think there's actually a group of leaders of the Covenant - the Prophets. I think they're going to be (at least to some extent) in Halo 2 (coming to XBox next month), and I believe they're the essential "leaders" of the Covenant...so it's nothing that we've seen in the first Halo.
Don't know what to tell you about the grunts. They say some pretty funny stuff. I always like how I'd latch a plasma grenade onto one of them and they'd yell something like, "Wha-ha-ha! Not again!" I just stood there, scratching my head, wondering just how many plasma grenades that poor sap had stuck to him that day...
Anyway...back to Wing Commander:
Edfilho, yeah, I know...your whole point is that we can't really decide a right or wrong answer to this because there's not enough that's actually KNOWN about it. And I don't think anyone here can argue with you there.
I myself am not here to debate the topic, or try to beat it into anybody's head that I'm right and they're wrong...I just think this is a neat thing to give some thought to and comment on. I guess it started out with the intention of turning into a debate, but I see it more as a thought-provoking topic - something for us to all look at and go "hmm" about.Well, at least that's what I'm getting out of this....I just find it more fascinating to discuss such a topic as this than to argue some other topic like a battle between the Tiger's Claw and the Concordia. Mind you, I mean no offense to the people debating in that thread, but it just doesn't seem as exciting to me...everyone's pulling out numbers (half are from authentic sources while the rest are fabricated, obviously - it bears some slight resemblance of the U.S. presidential race or a movie like Fahrenheit 9/11), and discussing mixing up functioning and non-functioning weapons, crew competency, fighter ready-lines... drawing in hypotheticals about armor then and now and enough what-if scenarios to give a fella a headache...
...whereas the topic we have here requires a bit more thought, mental creativity, a careful analysis of the few known facts because so much has been left as a big question mark...
Will there ever be a conclusive answer to the question posed? Ehhh probably not. But it allows more freedom for the brain to think about this than spitting out facts and yelling at people who don't want to accept them or try to find the little variables that could be exceptions to the otherwise universal rule and logical conclusion.
Questions like this turn into more than just the originally proposed this versus this topic because there's more variables than in other versus discussions...when you start to compare and contrast the two, you start noting all the potential similarities and differences, strengths and weaknesses....the rest is left to the imagination.
Perhaps we should have a label at the very top that says "nothing here is cold, hard fact." But then by that same token...we're talking about a futuristic war we have with oversized cats and incredibly overgrown bugs, all flying around in these ships propelled by God knows what and drawing in a variety of Physics and Engineering models that have to be somewhat fabricated because they don't (at least to a large extent) exist in the world as we know it now, and even if they did, the science does not yet exist to figure out how to tap into them.
So we're trying to draw a distinction between the fact-fiction and the fiction-fiction...all I'm saying is that I think it's more interesting to ask the questions there aren't any absolute answers to rather than arguing over facts.The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to think the potential exists within the Aligned to defeat the Steltek...but again, as with just about everything else in this thread, this is all just a matter of opinion.
Anyone else with any more intriguing thoughts?
- FireFalcon ~};^
Evil Imperial
Spaceman
The Kilrathi call the Nephilim* the Mantu, that maybe there real name..
*They are the implied threat in the novels
*They are the implied threat in the novels
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
The Nephilim and the Mantu are not the same, per Prophecy's ICIS Manual.
Evil Imperial
Spaceman
Prehaps the Mantu are the Nephlim's master race....hmmm.... 
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
No, they're not. The ICIS manual pretty much does away with the Mantu as a mysterious/hostile race.
Evil Imperial
Spaceman
Bandit LOAF said:
Hmmm...we don't really know much about the Mantu actually.....we just don't have enough info, they should have expanded better *sigh*
