Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Mac version is ported directly from the PC release - it's nearly identical.
Kilrathi Dreadnought
- Thread starter Dragon1
- Start date
Hmmm, I'm not grasping how that in itself excludes the Hvar'kann from being a Hakaga (unless we are going back to include the reference to FC, which we can't get around anyway .. . even though this whole discussion has been a devils advocate situation)Bandit LOAF said:
I guess I totally forgot about that reference, specifically built after the BoT (selective memoryBandit LOAF said:
). So the canon line is all or at least most of the ships we see in WC3 are the 'new clan constructed' fleet the Baron mentioned (I know the DN, Bhantkara and heavy destroyer are supposed to be brand new, but I can't recall off the top of my head if the light destroyer and Fralthi II are)? Damn, those Kats can build 
C-ya
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Hmm, I'm thinking in terms of proving that the WC3 dreadnought seen in game cutscenes and the Hvar'kann are seperate things.
I don't think it's a case of "Hey, lets built new ships", though - it's just a natural point in the war where a mess of new ships that have been in the yards for years enter service. Like how Confed would get six more fleet carriers every five years.
Edfilho
Cry some more!
On top of Viper's points (which, AFAIC, are not disproved in any way), why build a ship so long and so "light"? considering that we are talking about spaceships which aren't displacing water or air when moving, the determinant metric of the size and mass of the ship is mass. I mean, why make a ship with such a small density? You are just spreading the weapons and stretching the shield area. not to mention that there's probably a limit to the relation of power output of the reactor and it's mass and size... Considering how powerfull the concordia is measuring how long she does, it would be hard to believe that all of a sudden the kats discovered how to make ships more than 10 times larger while needing a lot less structural weight and a lot less reactor size. Judgeing by the calcullations above, it's actually a huge Blimp. Might as well paint "GoodYear" on its sides.
If you consider the internal logic of wc space engineering (however thin it may be), the DN makes as much sense as a contemporaneuos airplane measuring 2 KM in length with a mass of 80 metric tons, that moves on 2 boeing 767 engines. Maybe they'll build something like that in the future, but it is impossible with today's tech.
If the kilrathi wanted to build a 290 000 ton ship, they would probably concentrate its size a lot more, which would produce a ship with more "entrails" and less "shell", ergo, a ship which is a lot more efficient. just picture the forces involved in turning this beast one single degree... the length would make this more straining on the frame. I mean, all added up, the thing is really illogical AND wastefull, EVEN if you factor in the Intimidation issue. (it's not like a ship 2,2km long is something trivial, anyway).
Anyway, I still firmly believe that it's a typo that became official, and that is the whole tragedy, because we may prove it wrong, but it will still remain canon nevertheless. So, we may trade posts here forever and still get nowhere. Not that this thread is uninteresitng, this is probably the best DN thread I can remember. Let's hope we can keep it nice. Great job, btw, Viper and Starman.
If you consider the internal logic of wc space engineering (however thin it may be), the DN makes as much sense as a contemporaneuos airplane measuring 2 KM in length with a mass of 80 metric tons, that moves on 2 boeing 767 engines. Maybe they'll build something like that in the future, but it is impossible with today's tech.
If the kilrathi wanted to build a 290 000 ton ship, they would probably concentrate its size a lot more, which would produce a ship with more "entrails" and less "shell", ergo, a ship which is a lot more efficient. just picture the forces involved in turning this beast one single degree... the length would make this more straining on the frame. I mean, all added up, the thing is really illogical AND wastefull, EVEN if you factor in the Intimidation issue. (it's not like a ship 2,2km long is something trivial, anyway).
Anyway, I still firmly believe that it's a typo that became official, and that is the whole tragedy, because we may prove it wrong, but it will still remain canon nevertheless. So, we may trade posts here forever and still get nowhere. Not that this thread is uninteresitng, this is probably the best DN thread I can remember. Let's hope we can keep it nice. Great job, btw, Viper and Starman.
Ijuin said:
This would be an excellent arguement but for a couple of niggling flaws - mainly to do with your maths i suspect - firstly the actual max thickness of the hull would be 6 millimeters (in the 2.2km example its 600 centimeters - not much better)
and the mass of the air actually inside the 22km ship would be 684,444,444 thats 684 million tons of air (assuming air to be entirely made of Di-atomic Nitrogen molecules which weigh 28grams per 24litres at 1atm (101.3Kilopascals)
mathematically the 22km dreadnaught simply is impossible - but then again, perhaps the mass of the ship refers merely to its metallic content, and besides, the technologies given (eg durasteel etc) allow incredibly strong and thick armor at very light weights - on the other hand, it seems incredible to assume that the durasteel provides that much bonus, and besides, (whilst i havent done the maths) for its size the dreadnaught is FAR lighter than the equivalent mass-size ratios for other KAT ships, no matter how you fiddle the numbers here or say that durasteel is stupidly light yet really strong - the ship has less armor than smaller ships, effectively making it a massive hot air balloon - its big, its scary and it packs a load of guns, but if you fly into it with the force to dent a hakaga, youll probably break straight through the hull.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Because jump points limit the mass of the ships that pass through them.
I have no idea what AFAIC stands for.
Edfilho
Cry some more!
So making it a thousand times thicker is "not much better"??? 600cm are SIX METERS, 20feet of durasteel!! You take 1000 sheets of paper, pack them together, then you try cutting them with scisors...
Loaf, that's just my point, only worded differently: Why make a ship with this set mass amount so long? They are just wasting material. Instead the mass of all that plating and structural parts (bulkheads and so on and so forth), they could have made a smaller ship with more innards, more of everything that's usefull to have in a major battleship....
I've just made it up, means As Far As I'm Concerned
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Silly Viper... it's already only about as big as one of those big prongs, and as it moves towards the dreadnought, it can only get smaller, since the dreadnought is further away from the cameraViper61 said:
.Yeah, I can't see why Thrakhath would have a problem with the dreadnought... but the problem with bioweapons is that Kilrathi use of bioweapons is nothing new - so they can't be the 'new' weapon.
Hey, for the record, I agree on both counts - 22 km is excessively silly, and a bunch of new superships popping up right after the Hakaga strike force is a pretty weak plot development... but since they are there, we gotta at least try to explain how it can all make senseOne set of super secret ships the Terrans don't know about is a plot device. Figure in the resourses the Hakaga's were draining and two sets is a plot hole
Anyway, I rather think the conflict between a wounded Bhantkara (Karga) and a Hakaga (Vorgath was his name IIRC) would have been exciting enough without it being 22km long, but oh well, you can't always eat the cake you have.
.
Red Baron
Rear Admiral
Edfilho said:
I think we should disregard human (or kilrathi) logics and try to argument with the laws of physics, since we talk about a game. There were trekkies commiting suizide thinking about that kind of stuff.
Let´s just say there IS some motivation to build a ship of that size instead to build a whole fleet.
Why do the Kilrathi build ships in an obviously resource-wasting style? Why do they waste ships waiting at jumppoints for their destruction? Well they do, it´s a game after all.
Speaking of trekkies I was going to compare this thread to the size comparison calculations of uber trekkie sites like Ex Astris Scientia.
Anyway... There's no way I can put up an excellent debate on this like you guys have, and I've enjoyed reading it. In my opinion 2.2km is the most sensible conclusion, but if it is 22km then there's that question of why they would build a ship that huge. Well, the Kilrathi are all about inspiring fear, and I'm sure even the most seasoned pilot would soil their flightsuit if they saw a 22km ship coming at them. It would kind of work like the Romulan Warbird in Star Trek, it's huge compared to most ships to inspire fear and make it look more powerful than it actually is, but most of that size is empty space which would support people saying how the Dreadnaught would have a low mass despite its size if it's built similarly.
Honestly though, I don't have any real explaination for this one other than "Oops?".
Anyway... There's no way I can put up an excellent debate on this like you guys have, and I've enjoyed reading it. In my opinion 2.2km is the most sensible conclusion, but if it is 22km then there's that question of why they would build a ship that huge. Well, the Kilrathi are all about inspiring fear, and I'm sure even the most seasoned pilot would soil their flightsuit if they saw a 22km ship coming at them. It would kind of work like the Romulan Warbird in Star Trek, it's huge compared to most ships to inspire fear and make it look more powerful than it actually is, but most of that size is empty space which would support people saying how the Dreadnaught would have a low mass despite its size if it's built similarly.
Honestly though, I don't have any real explaination for this one other than "Oops?".
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Perhaps the dreadnought is designed to act as a troopship - that would explain its massive size, its low mass and the fact that it was integral in the (losing endgame) attack on Earth.
Because it looked terrifying to the pathetic human civilians on the ground, probably. Shock and awe, same as we tried to do (and failed to a fair extent) in Iraq last March.
Never underestimate the value of demoralizing enemy forces. Part of the reason Desert Storm was so easy was PsyOps was turned loose on them with some help in content and tone from our Arab allies. A lot of the Iraqi army lost the will to fight before they were ever even engaged.
Never underestimate the value of demoralizing enemy forces. Part of the reason Desert Storm was so easy was PsyOps was turned loose on them with some help in content and tone from our Arab allies. A lot of the Iraqi army lost the will to fight before they were ever even engaged.
Dominator
Rear Admiral
Moonsword said:
Shock and awe campaign was focused more at the iraqi military, less on civilians, and it was a total success - disintegration of half-million army. You can read about original concept at http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1996/shock-n-awe_index.html (sorry for going off topic)
Sylvester
Vice Admiral
I'm going with the 2.2 Km dreadnought for these reasons:
Can you imagine how long it would take to build the shipyard for this thing, not to mention the gathering of enough raw materials for just the outer hull plating as three dozen Confederation Class? If they had actually built four of these things, the project must of been underway since the mid 2640's and there is no point to doing that as back then, the war was going rather well for the Kilrathi. And I have heard speculation about the thing being built on the ground, can you imagine how much thrust would be needed to get something twenty-two kilometers long airborne, not to mention escaping a planets gravity? And if you do the comparison right, as Starman mentioned, I could literally park three Concordia class carriers in the bay seen at the front of the vessel.
Can you imagine how long it would take to build the shipyard for this thing, not to mention the gathering of enough raw materials for just the outer hull plating as three dozen Confederation Class? If they had actually built four of these things, the project must of been underway since the mid 2640's and there is no point to doing that as back then, the war was going rather well for the Kilrathi. And I have heard speculation about the thing being built on the ground, can you imagine how much thrust would be needed to get something twenty-two kilometers long airborne, not to mention escaping a planets gravity? And if you do the comparison right, as Starman mentioned, I could literally park three Concordia class carriers in the bay seen at the front of the vessel.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
We're talking about militaries that field thousands of a given destroyer class - resources aren't a problem.
Dundradal
Frog Blast the Vent Core!
I don't think the kilrathi capships in the wc3 losing endgame are in the atmosphere I just think they are in low earth orbit as to provide support for ground operations.
The fact that 4 known 22km long ships show up after BoT isn't all that unplausible. Confed was turning out a good amount of ships (even in heavy carriers, it's just they lost a lot of them). It is mentioned how much more prepared the Kilrathi were for the war than confed in FA. They had more shipyards and the ability to produce a large amount of ships. Even after the loss of the major shipyards on kilrah's 2nd moon and the losses from the TCS Engima and Khorsan, the kilrathi still had a large ship building capacity.
To build 4 22km long dreadnaughts is not all that impossible and it's the only true length stated anywhere so we have to live with it.
The fact that 4 known 22km long ships show up after BoT isn't all that unplausible. Confed was turning out a good amount of ships (even in heavy carriers, it's just they lost a lot of them). It is mentioned how much more prepared the Kilrathi were for the war than confed in FA. They had more shipyards and the ability to produce a large amount of ships. Even after the loss of the major shipyards on kilrah's 2nd moon and the losses from the TCS Engima and Khorsan, the kilrathi still had a large ship building capacity.
To build 4 22km long dreadnaughts is not all that impossible and it's the only true length stated anywhere so we have to live with it.
Madman said:
You are right. I deliberately erred on the conservative side to show that even the most conservative figures still give us a huge dirigible. Quite simply, a twenty-kilometer-long ship would have to mass in the hundreds of millions of tons or else be mostly filled with vacuum.
but in that image, you are lookinga at the Vic almost 'end on', the smallest possible profile of the ship. The Ranger isn't a 10th as tall as it is long and maybe only 1/8th as wide (rough from memory guess-timate). This image was taken just before the impact camera cut IIRC, so if we are to assume its pretty close, yes, the Vic is in the scene is as large as only one of the forward prongs, but its not even close to a broadside view of the carrier. Factor in the fact that the prongs are farther towards the front of the DN than the impact site, the fact that we don't know how far it is away (right before impact would suggest a 2.2km DN, farther away would suggest a 22km) and the odd angle the vic is to the camera and , short of duplicating this scene and camera angle with like-sized models, its not a very good measure either way. The second pic with he 'nose' of the Victory (again we don't know what angle its striking the DN so we can only approximate) is a much better indication of the size comparison (if you assume the Vic is impacting the hull of the DN).Quarto said:Silly Viper... it's already only about as big as one of those big prongs, and as it moves towards the dreadnought, it can only get smaller, since the dreadnought is further away from the camera
The only instance I can recall off the top of my head that the Kilrathi used bioweapons is on Repleetah, which is dealt with in WCATV when Blair hints that there is an unspoken (or spoken, not sure) truce on the use of bioweapons between the two parties.Quarto said:
The text from WC3N follows:
The Kilrathi's affection for huge overpowered ships has never been thought of as distasteful or without the joy of the kill (see the Hakagas), so the reference to the weapon really can't be the 22km DN. The Emporer then in turn says the weapon could be used against the clans if they become uppity, a vague reference that could either mean the DN or the biomissiles. Melek also makes a comment that seems to indicate that the skipper biological missiles are the new weapon, but it can just as easily be used to say its the DN.
Anyway, I'm willing to bet the bank that Thrakhaths distaste for the weapon means the bio-skipper is the 'new weapon', as he seems very comfortable riding in his DN around the galaxy for the rest of the novel
. Resources in the WC universe are such an abstract subject, but the overall feeling I get is that both sides are on the verge of collapse.Bandit LOAF said:
I have no other resources but the online version of the WC3N at my disposal to quote, but this is one passage that seems to indicate the Kilrathi are as strapped as the Confederation. Doesn't seem to me he's expecting a whole new fleet of warships, with or without a 22km DN. Of course this could be a hugely exaggerated, melodramatic speech to make a point to Thrakhath, but I can't think of a time in the novels/games where the emporer has ever been prone to exaggeration, and we see quite a bit of him in both.
Another quote that seems to suggest the Kilrathi are about as bad off as the Confederation. The problem here is, the emporer then goes into the fact that the ancient enemy is returning, so we really don't have a gauge as to what the Kilrathi emporer considers 'crippled'. Crippled in the 'can't fight a war' sense or crippled in the 'can't immediately engage the ancient enemy when they arrive' sense.
Anyway, contradicting sources. The Baron expects a fleet to come online in a year . .. the Emporer is disproportionatly pissed about losing 3 (I think it was 3) Hakaga's and seems to not think a whole new fleet is just around the corner. Either way, I know there are a few quotes in FA that seem to suggest the Empire is also low on resources, my books are just packed away
. In the end it comes down to believing one or the other (which it seems you have to believe the baron where canon is concerned, otherwise where the hell did all these new toys come from?
), or mash the two together in some overly complicated explanation. From my track record, which do you think I'm prone to do I tend to believe the new fleet introduced is almost entirely incorporated into the First Fleet (I think its the first, the one the Emporer hold as his own personal guard) becoming the second Earth-stomping force that Blair nukes with the T-bomb. Everywhere else though, all along the front lines and throughout the galaxy, the Kilrathi are as bad off as the Confederation (the Emporer has always seemed to to enjoy this 'security blanket' fleet and never really 'counted' it as part of the overall warchest). This is my personal explaination of how a new fleet can come online and the Kilrathi still consider themselves 'crippled'.
C-ya
Dominator said:
Dominator, I'm specifically refering only to last March . The second part of my post talks about how successful Psy-Ops and military action were put together in Desert Storm... which is part of Shock and Awe, and the disintegration of that same half-million strong army at the hands of a similarly-sized international force. I would call what happened in Desert Storm as shock and awe, but not so much so in Iraqi Freedom.
The opposition in Iraqi Freedom was somewhat more effective (though still ultimately defeated) during the invasion phase of the operation than in Desert Storm from what I saw, but I haven't studied the situation in detail, so I'm going to bow to your superior knowledge of the situation.
Now, @Viper:
I'm not even going to get involved in the continuing size debate, and photo interpratation is not among my skills.
The Kilrathi use bioweapons at Repleetah earlier and at two systems in WC3 (Locanda and another system) at around the same time. The reference to one missile is vague though: it could be a Strontium-90 tipped warhead, not just a bioweapon, but I have problems believing that one nuke could do that much damage so as to wipe Earth clean of human life.
The Emperor has a good point. However, it is possible the Hvar'kann ships were not originally conceived to fight the Terrans but the ancient enemy and were turned against the Terrans because the war was not yet over.
The Hvar'kann's were probably at a lower construction priority than the super carriers and not brought up to full priority until both the Hakaga's and the foundations of the WC3 fleet were completed.
I do agree that these ships are not something the Kilrathi would build in one year.