Homeland Security

[Aries]

Originally posted by Lynx
The problem that the palestinians doesn't like Israel doesn't come from nowhere.

yeah, yeah, the palestinians got kicked out of their land to make room for isreal. my point is they got beat in a war for that land. they should just accept that they ain't gonna get it back.

Both sides are guilty. The Israelites treat them like crap and they fight back only with cowardly terroristic acts. And no one wants to make the first step to peace because everyone believes that's all the opposites fault.

well, how would you treat someone who has killed a hell of a lot of your citizens whose only crime was being in that on little shopping mall. i sure as hell wouldn't treat them very nice. the palestinians should just accept it. if they did, my guess would be alot of the problems in the mideast would solve themselves. if the US gets involved in the peace process, those who don't want peace will just say it is another example of american imperialism at work. it's their problem, let them settle it.

 

[Lynx]

Originally posted by Ender


My opinion is simple. It should all be one country, with eveyone protected eaqually under the rule of law. But that's not going to happen without a major revolution in both camps as the leadership of both suffer from cronic cases of cranial-rectal inversion.

Right. I meant to say the same.

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

Very good. I'll comment on what you've said below.

Originally posted by cff
Oh... Let me see...

Yes, these incidents were unfortunate. Do you happen to know if it was the government itself that was at fault for the overzealous (to be charitable) actions of law enforcement, or the individuals?

Originally posted by cff
To take another example from the USA: After the 9.11. The FBI handed out a list of people they wanted to talk to to various institutions (for example casinos in las vegas).

How soon after Sept. 11 do you know? From then to, oh, the end of the year, everyone was in a state of frenzied panic, and rightfully so. I'm not saying that their actions were right, arresting innocent people is not by any stretch of the imagination, but I think I can understand why people would have gone to such extremes. Sure, the government should not act this way, and those who were found guilty of arresting people for crimes they didn't commit should have the appropriate punishment handed down to them.

Originally posted by cff
I know of a game designer that was arrested and lost at least 1 year of work because the FBI claimed he was doing/supporting cybercrimes when he did a GAME about hacking.

Any info on this game? I have, and enjoy, games like Grand Theft Auto and Mafia. But I'm a bit undecided where I stand with these 'crime games.' I remember a game called Scum, which, in a nutshell, was a full motion video game where you played a serial killer who laid waste to every person you meet with knives, hammers, guns and the like, and that was the whole objective. The more you kill the higher you score. The game was banned, with good reason.

Originally posted by cff
Also I'd bet some money that I was closer scanned after the 9.11.

That's a pretty convulted chain of coincidences to those who are paranoid, or maybe some spy agent trained to look out for these things. But you'd be surprised. Not long after Sept. 11 I saw my father off on a plane trip. Going through security, as a test I planned to hide a pocket knife in a pocket, but opted instead to slip it in my wallet. Well my wallet was taken to be put through the baggage check. The knife slipped through unnoticed. Bet that makes you real secure about flying after Sept. 11.

Originally posted by cff
What I say is watch that it doesn't happen in yours as well!

Oh certainly. How was the Nazi party able to gain power in Germany? Because the whole country was swept up in madness. Now throw in a whole world swept in madness and you have considerable concern that history will irrerseably repeat itself. But look on the bright side, most countries have (I hope I hope I hope) learned from this.

Originally posted by cff

Originally posted by cff
What plots do you think that your secet agencies are planning in secret? And be sure they are...

Roswell? The recruitment of Elvis? JFK? Agent Orange? The Gulf War Syndrome? Oklahoma cover up? Sept 11 being staged by the government? The truth is, I don't know. I actually thought the twin towers was a stunt by Westwood for Red Alert when I first heard about it. But I wouldn't be surprised if there were some dirty government secrets, both abroad and here. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there was some deal between Prime Minister John Howard and Governer General Peter Hollingworth, something like 'I'll protect you with your sex scandal in the church if you keep quiet when I lie about children being thrown overboard.'

Originally posted by cff
<extreme paranoia mode on>
For all I know you could be a CIA man just trying to modify my believes of the USA to your advantage.

Yes. My name is Elvis Presley and I was the one who shot JFK. Now, seriously, who am I? I'm Phillip Tanaka. I stand up for what I believe in. I try to be a just and fair man, someone who wants to try and do the right thing. I actually try to know as much as I can about the world. I was not ignorant of the war between Israel and Palestine. Nor have I closed my eyes to the conditions in Africa. Believe me at least, when I say that I'm no spook. I know a little about it, like the honey traps, you know about those? Where I hook you up with, say, Ginger Lynn and she tries to get information out of you. If I was to become a spook I might be good at it, I don't know. But I would be more...how can I say this without sounding bloodthirsty? I would probably be more suited to taking out a village of terrorists than I would be finding out if a village is full of terrorists or full of civillians. Even if I knew how I would tell the CIA where to go if it ordered me to brainwash people into thinking what it wants them to believe. Being a terrorist? All I'll say about that is if you ever come to my house and I let you in, I'll plonk you down at my computer so you can see my anti terrorist credentials on Rainbow Six, SWAT, Delta Force and whatever other terrorist mods and game I've scrounged up. I do know a little about recruiting for causes. Basically, you make a case against the people your target warks for. You pander and all that. Then, before they know it, you cast the hook and they're dead meat. But that doesn't mean that I'd use it here, at least not deliberately. And you may be more right than you know about CNN being the propoganda station...if memory serves it tried to blame the Palastinions for Sept. 11 by showing them celebrating and saying it was because of the terrorist acts.

And you're not being paranoid. I can show you paranoid, believe me.

 

[Aries]

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
The Gulf War Syndrome?

i saw on TV that the effects of gulf war syndrome closely resemble the effects of low level exposure to sarin nerve gas. they said the current line of thinking is that when the air force blew up stuff, some nerve gas was released and our troops were in the direction it blew.

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

I wonder if it had anything to do with an experiment to create super soldiers like in Metal Gear. I actually suggested this to a crazy conspiracy theorist fully expecting them to say yes.

 

[Aries]

give anything that's way out in left field to a consipiracy theorist and they most likely will say yes.

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

Surprisingly they didn't, but youshould have seen the videos for sale. Martin Bryant was a government assassin. Martin Bryant, if you remember, was the gunman who killed 35 people with an assortment of weapons such as a Styer assault rifle at Port Arthur in 1996. Things such as the weapons used and how he didn't go bang bang bang but would go bang then line up another target to shoot are being hawked by conspiracy theorists to prove that it was an act set up by the government to bring in tougher gun laws. The same theory has been applied to Sept 11, that it was planned by the government to take away freedom in the name of security. Autism linked to medication. About the only conspiracy theories I consider plausible is Roswell and JFK. Besides which, if they want to get the message out so bad why arn't the videos free?

 

[Aries]

JFK is definatly one because of one simple fact. when watching the film, how is the back of his head blown off when he supposdly is shot from behind? as for the money issue, do you really think there would be so many conspiracy theories if those who came up with them DIDN'T get money from telling them to the world?

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

I have a small piece of footage of the Kennedy assassination, and this is what I saw. As the motercade went past I could hear a shot go off, I assume the blow to the back of the head. The video was behind a sign, so you don't actually see the shot. But when we do see the motercade we see President Kennedy in his wife's arms. At this stage it's indiscernable to me whether he's alright or not. Then, as the motercade moves about five or ten metres on, there's another shot. The blood spray indicates this was to the side of the head, which means to me there were at least two people involved. Whether they were government or not is something I'm not one to ask considering my lack of knowledge on the topic.

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Aries
so what, move all the jews out of the region? nope, isreal has as much right to be there as any country. they got this right by kicking the shit out of every country who tried to push them out. just cause the palistinians (sp?) are mad ain't a reason to relocate an entire country. hell, the palistinians (sp?) are the real problem. they got beat, they don't like it, so they fight a cowards war.

What you say is hypocrisy. The Israelis won, so everybody else should accept it and stop fighting? Well, shouldn't the Israelis have accepted that they lost Israel about 1,900 years ago? I contend that if Israelis have the right to return after 1,800 years of exile and take the land away from its owners, then these owners have the right to keep fighting to regain it for at least another 1,800 years. Then, and only then, can you ask the Palestinians to give up and accept things.

However, we're straying from the real topic. This thread is not about Palestine, so I would suggest you ignore my response and not comment any further on this issue .

 

[cff]

Originally posted by Aries
so what, move all the jews out of the region?

I did never say that. Albeit I think that moving Israel to the spot it is - in the midst of 'hostile' states was a big foolishness in the first place.

Originally posted by Aries
nope, isreal has as much right to be there as any country. they got this right by kicking the shit out of every country who tried to push them out. just cause the palistinians (sp?) are mad ain't a reason to relocate an entire country.

You should differentiate two things: The original Israel as (to oversimplify matters) founded by the USA and the Israel as it is today. You completely ignore the invasion Israel did into palestinensic terretory in a war later on ('seven day war' or somerthing like that IIRC).
Of course they have to give back that land IMHO.

Originally posted by Aries
hell, the palistinians (sp?) are the real problem. they got beat, they don't like it, so they fight a cowards war and as a result, the whole damn region is a powder keg waiting to go off, and we got these islamic fundimentalist bastards blowing up embassys and flying planes into buildings in the name of palistinian liberation. you want a way to fix this mess. take out Arafat (sp?) and it will go a long way to fixing it.

For one Arafat might be the only reason it isn't worse. IMHO he is more a stabilizing factor then the opposite. At least s part of the 'fundimentalist bastards' as you name them are kept in control by him.
Oh and you cannot be serious about the first thing, can you? So you lost a war - accept that you are occupied forever? ROFL...
By that logic we should first all unite to back to the Roman empire or so...
Of course a war crime should be punished and the past be restored as well as possible.

Originally posted by Lynx
The problem that the palestinians doesn't like Israel doesn't come from nowhere.
Both sides are guilty. The Israelites treat them like crap and they fight back only with cowardly terroristic acts. And no one wants to make the first step to peace because everyone believes that's all the opposites fault.

Yup. Also it is a big deal of jealousy on the palestinian side. The stolen terretories are far richer and more valuable then they would have been under palestinian ownership. Of course Israel doesn't want to sacrifice that work they did to achieve that.

I pretty much hold it with Ender. Both sides should unite into one country. That would be the best solution I think. Not going to happen anytime soon however. Not as long as there is more pressure on at least one side.
If the USA for example would drop any support or backup for Israel tomorrow I'd think that there would be an agreement in at longest 1-2 years. Similar if the arabic union would drop their support. In a way the two sides abuse the conflict for their problems with each other IMHO.

Originally posted by Aries
yeah, yeah, the palestinians got kicked out of their land to make room for isreal. my point is they got beat in a war for that land. they should just accept that they ain't gonna get it back.

If it were your land, would you?

Originally posted by Aries

well, how would you treat someone who has killed a hell of a lot of your citizens whose only crime was being in that on little shopping mall. i sure as hell wouldn't treat them very nice.

How would you treat someone who regulary bombs the homes of innocents with rockets?
Israel commits just as many terrorist acts to the other side as retaliation.
Which they have to retaliate.
Who did the first shot? Who cares!

Originally posted by Aries

the palestinians should just accept it. if they did, my guess would be alot of the problems in the mideast would solve themselves.

Similar I could say: The Israelis should just accept it and the problems would solve themself.
You elect one side to be innocent where it isn't.

Originally posted by Aries

if the US gets involved in the peace process, those who don't want peace will just say it is another example of american imperialism at work. it's their problem, let them settle it.

Yup.
Best would be to really let both sides alone for a couple of time I think as well. As long as we get that 'my big brother is bigger then yours' attitude change won't happen.

 

[cff]

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka

Yes, these incidents were unfortunate. Do you happen to know if it was the government itself that was at fault for the overzealous (to be charitable) actions of law enforcement, or the individuals?

Does it matter for the one unrightfully accused?
If it is the government directly or the government indirectly by issuing that dangerous laws like the "Homeland Security" that gives too much abusable power?

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka

How soon after Sept. 11 do you know? From then to, oh, the end of the year, everyone was in a state of frenzied panic, and rightfully so. I'm not saying that their actions were right, arresting innocent people is not by any stretch of the imagination, but I think I can understand why people would have gone to such extremes.

AFAIK the lists are still circulating.
Dunno when the arrests did happen. You see when the FBI was called the people had been released immediately, they did the best they could. It just got out of hand.

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka

Any info on this game? I have, and enjoy, games like Grand Theft Auto and Mafia. But I'm a bit undecided where I stand with these 'crime games.' I remember a game called Scum, which, in a nutshell, was a full motion video game where you played a serial killer who laid waste to every person you meet with knives, hammers, guns and the like, and that was the whole objective. The more you kill the higher you score. The game was banned, with good reason.

No computer game. A card game called "Hackers" - by Steve Jackson Games.

Regarding GTA - well yeah. I got it for a week now. Got to say it is a bit on the doubtful side even for me. Even the narrowed down European version.

As for worst game ever: Try "POSTAL"
Especially POSTAL 2. Just to name some 'highlights': Unreal Warfare engine, so really detailled. Goal of the game: To run amok. You can piss on dead people, you can play football with their heads, you can put a cat (jup the animal) on your MP as a silencer. Slowly it 'explodes' away as you fire... Stuff like that. I think you get the image...

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka

But you'd be surprised. Not long after Sept. 11 I saw my father off on a plane trip. Going through security, as a test I planned to hide a pocket knife in a pocket, but opted instead to slip it in my wallet. Well my wallet was taken to be put through the baggage check. The knife slipped through unnoticed. Bet that makes you real secure about flying after Sept. 11.

No, I'd not be surprised. Its no problem at all to smuggle something in as normal passenger.
And no - I won't give you any hints as to how.

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka

Oh certainly. How was the Nazi party able to gain power in Germany? Because the whole country was swept up in madness.

Don't oversimplify.
The Nazis came at the 'best possible time'. They brought work, a better social system, wealth,...
It might be discussed that they only could because they had been preparing for far of course.
By far not everything they did was bad either. So you similary cannot claim everyone was mad who followed them. They had been far more clever. Slowly, step by step. Start with taking the minds of the youth...
My father said that he would have probably reported his own parents for listening to US radio for example. Now you don't know my father, but he could not have killed a fly.
But add propaganda, a feeling of power if you are in the system and on the other side the fear that your best friend will betray you when you aren't then you get a dangerous mix.

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka

Now throw in a whole world swept in madness and you have considerable concern that history will irrerseably repeat itself. But look on the bright side, most countries have (I hope I hope I hope) learned from this.

I am not so sure we learned. Our civilisation is still too young. Lets talk again in 1000 years from now if we put on the scale of the roman empire or the earlier cultures.

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka

And you're not being paranoid. I can show you paranoid, believe me.

LOL.
I think you are the first one I meet who said I am not paranoid enough.
I think for a normal innocent person far away from any position of power or relevance I am

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

Trouble making young punk. I'll straighten you out yet.

Nah, just kidding. Let's see what you have to say below.

Originally posted by cff
Does it matter for the one unrightfully accused?

In my opinion I would say yes. If these were the actions of individual people then the government, by rights, should have them censored. (Demoted, booted from the farce).

Originally posted by cff
If it is the government directly or the government indirectly by issuing that dangerous laws like the "Homeland Security" that gives too much abusable power?

Abuseable power? Does the American government have too much abuseable power? I guess it would, to some. I'm starting to wonder, as I'm sure you have, what that damn fool running America is doing. That Bush satire, you know the one, That's My Bush, seems more true to the real man every day.

Originally posted by cff
No computer game. A card game called "Hackers" - by Steve Jackson Games.

A card game? That was based on computer hacking? Or was this simply being overzealous?

Originally posted by cff
As for worst game ever: Try "POSTAL"
Especially POSTAL 2. Just to name some 'highlights': Unreal Warfare engine, so really detailled. Goal of the game: To run amok. You can piss on dead people, you can play football with their heads, you can put a cat (jup the animal) on your MP as a silencer. Slowly it 'explodes' away as you fire... Stuff like that. I think you get the image...

POSTAL huh? Well after reading the HOTT novel and an old thread on Kilrathi eating humans, I might see if I can get my hands on it for a fitting revenge. No, seriously, one of my worst game experiances didn't come from any violent or gory games, but right from Wing Commander. I think you know the story by now.

Originally posted by cff
No, I'd not be surprised. Its no problem at all to smuggle something in as normal passenger.
And no - I won't give you any hints as to how.

Good for you. I came across something of a terrorist bible or encyclopedia. I'm taking that to the grave. It's something that should be burned, or better yet, flushed.

Originally posted by cff
Don't oversimplify.

Now this is something that I could never get. I always thought it was better to nutshell. Oversimplifing to me sounds like an excuse for politicians and their ilk to sit on their hands and do nothing.

Originally posted by cff
The Nazis came at the 'best possible time'. They brought work, a better social system, wealth,...

A similar arguement could probably be made for America offering security.

Originally posted by cff
By far not everything they did was bad either. So you similary cannot claim everyone was mad who followed them. They had been far more clever. Slowly, step by step. Start with taking the minds of the youth...
My father said that he would have probably reported his own parents for listening to US radio for example. Now you don't know my father, but he could not have killed a fly.
But add propaganda, a feeling of power if you are in the system and on the other side the fear that your best friend will betray you when you aren't then you get a dangerous mix.

Which is what I mean, when I say that the Nazis whipped Germany up into a frenzy of madness.

Originally posted by cff
I am not so sure we learned. Our civilisation is still too young.

You mean as in we have these establishments and such, like Empires and Kingdoms? States abd countries?

Originally posted by cff
Lets talk again in 1000 years from now if we put on the scale of the roman empire or the earlier cultures.

I probably would...but I plan on being in heaven with Mariko by then.

Originally posted by cff
LOL.
I think you are the first one I meet who said I am not paranoid enough.
I think for a normal innocent person far away from any position of power or relevance I am

There's a little person called a paedophile hunter. Look at some of them accuse each other, strangers, and Michael J. Fox (no joke) as being paedophiles. Having fought it myself, all I can say is crazy.

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

Ooops, I misread one of your comments. The one how you ask whether it matters who's responsible to people who are arrested for crimes they didn't commit. No, I guess it wouldn't. There's a similar incident at the moment, where an Australian tourist has been arrested and been given the works because her Visa ran out. It occured to me in passing that Australia could give America a wake up call by telling them to not treat Australians like they were terrorists, or it will pull all support from America's war on terror and launch it's own. I doubt that America would be wanting to go to war with a country just for pulling it's support. But frankly, even if it did help things I doubt that John Howard would have the balls to do it.

 

[Aries]

Originally posted by cff
I did never say that. Albeit I think that moving Israel to the spot it is - in the midst of 'hostile' states was a big foolishness in the first place.

of course it was foolishness. why the hell would you want to move all your people to an area where the dominate religion don't exactly like you and thinks that killing infadels will get them into their version of heaven

For one Arafat might be the only reason it isn't worse. IMHO he is more a stabilizing factor then the opposite. At least s part of the 'fundimentalist bastards' as you name them are kept in control by him.
Oh and you cannot be serious about the first thing, can you? So you lost a war - accept that you are occupied forever? ROFL...
By that logic we should first all unite to back to the Roman empire or so...
Of course a war crime should be punished and the past be restored as well as possible.

Arafat doesn't do shit. he just sits there, playing both sides. if he was gone, the palistanians might get a leader can actually take a position and stick with it, for good or evil. either way, it would probably be better. get a good leader in, might get peace. get an evil leader in, have a war, they lose and keep quite about it for at least a while, which would be good

i don't mean they should accept being occupied, i mean they should quite bitching about it since they can't do a damn thing about it.

I pretty much hold it with Ender. Both sides should unite into one country. That would be the best solution I think. Not going to happen anytime soon however. Not as long as there is more pressure on at least one side.
If the USA for example would drop any support or backup for Israel tomorrow I'd think that there would be an agreement in at longest 1-2 years. Similar if the arabic union would drop their support. In a way the two sides abuse the conflict for their problems with each other IMHO.

excellent idea. then they could kill eachother under the same flag.

more like 1-2 weeks. Israel ain't shit without the US support. same with the palistanians and arabic support

If it were your land, would you?

if i didn't have a solution that would work to get rid of them, hell yeah i wouldn't bitch about it. bitching won't get anything, except invoking the great god CNN, which won't do shit. what i would do is stay silent until i had a solution that would work and then impliment it. suicide bombings ain't that solution that will drive israel out. all it does is piss israel off and kill off the next generation of palistainians.

How would you treat someone who regulary bombs the homes of innocents with rockets?
Israel commits just as many terrorist acts to the other side as retaliation.
Which they have to retaliate.
Who did the first shot? Who cares!

i'd go kick his ass and make sure he couldn't do that again, not go kill his innocents so he will kill mine, so i would kill his, so he would kill mine, so he would........................

Similar I could say: The Israelis should just accept it and the problems would solve themself.
You elect one side to be innocent where it isn't.

i side with israel only cause they ain't a terrorist group

Yup.
Best would be to really let both sides alone for a couple of time I think as well. As long as we get that 'my big brother is bigger then yours' attitude change won't happen.

 

[Ghost]

Originally posted by Aries
of course it was foolishness. why the hell would you want to move all your people to an area where the dominate religion don't exactly like you and thinks that killing infadels will get them into their version of heaven

Maybe you must be jew to truly understand why we want/wanted that piece of land.

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

I can understand that the issue between Israel and Palestine is a very sensitive topic. And if I knew a little more about the topic I'd probably be blowing all hell and sundry too. But could you please try and keep more to topic like Quarto wanted? I'd hate for this thread to be closed.

 

[cff]

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka

A card game? That was based on computer hacking? Or was this simply being overzealous?

A card game. Goal of the game is to control a certain part of the web before the others do via various means of hacking. AFAIK it is pretty much like Illuminati, just that it plays in cyberspace. Its a pure entertainment game, albeit if you know a bit about computing and hacking you'll get several laughs when closer reading the cards...

I got no idea how the FBI came to the impression the puplisher was doing real hacking, but somehow they did.

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka

There's a little person called a paedophile hunter. Look at some of them accuse each other, strangers, and Michael J. Fox (no joke) as being paedophiles. Having fought it myself, all I can say is crazy.

Pedofiles *grml*
Now we could start talking about death penalties...
What really disturbs me is that at two occastions I found myself on a childporn site I definitely didn't want to go to. You'd at least imagine they would hide and not advertise...

Oh and for paranoia - have a look at some conspiracy newsgroups. That is heavy. Like say the earth WAS destroyed y2k. We just didn't notice because aliens constructed something like "The Matrix" for us. And that was one of the more 'sane' theories I remember.

 

[LeHah]

Originally posted by cff
Goal of the game is to control a certain part of the web before the others do via various means of hacking. AFAIK it is pretty much like Illuminati, just that it plays in cyberspace. Its a pure entertainment game, albeit if you know a bit about computing and hacking you'll get several laughs when closer reading the cards...

Illuminatti was the most fun card game ever when it was in it's heyday. I can't seem to find them anymore. I tried NetRunner (which is what I'm assuming you mean by "Hacker") and though it was pretty good... it wasn't Illuminatti by any means.

 

[cff]

Originally posted by Aries

Arafat doesn't do shit. he just sits there, playing both sides. if he was gone, the palistanians might get a leader can actually take a position and stick with it, for good or evil. either way, it would probably be better. get a good leader in, might get peace. get an evil leader in, have a war, they lose and keep quite about it for at least a while, which would be good

You of course assume that a leader would have ultimate say. An extremistic leader like you suggest would at best have 50% of people behind him. I dunno if Arafat is a good guy or a bad guy, but don't underestimate the problems he has with his own folks.

Originally posted by Aries

excellent idea. then they could kill eachother under the same flag.
more like 1-2 weeks. Israel ain't shit without the US support. same with the palistanians and arabic support

1-2 weeks? I didn't hope for extinction of each other. Until all contracts are signed it would more be months or years I figure.

Originally posted by Aries

i side with israel only cause they ain't a terrorist group

From the western perspective.
I bet if you asked some arabs you'd get a different answer.

Originally posted by Ghost
Maybe you must be jew to truly understand why we want/wanted that piece of land.

No - really?
I want to be leader of the restored romanic empire.
Or I want that Austria becomes as large again as it was before WW 1.
Of course they want it. That still does not give dem the right to get it or make it a good idea.
Considering that at least 3 religions claim that very spot of the earth as holy it would maybe have been most clever to make it a neutral zone, owned by noone?