FAB Ranks

[Delance]

Stupid? All right, please tell me were did you get the idea that the Mirage 2000 is better than the F-15, F/A-18 or the Su-35.

I really want to see how the pilots of F-15s and Su-35s are so scared of the MIGHTY MIRAGE 2000.

Regardless of the marketing of Dassault and Embraer might say, the Mirage 2000 is just the Mirage 3 refurbished. It's a brand new outdated piece of ****. People in the FAB are desperate that, because of a stupid political decision, they will end up with the Mirage instead of the Su-35 they want so much. We got this chance, the first since WW2 and subsequent years, to have first-rate fighters, and Lula is going to destroy it.

As I said, I have nothing against it personally, for all I care, France can stack their airbases with hundreds of those, even tough you choose to ignore the fact that the French are retiring this "brand new" fighter from active duty. Why would that be? Is it too good for the French Air Force? Or is it too obsolete in design?

Of course France thinks it’s a good idea to sell them to “dumb third world countries”.. In fact, it’s probably going to happen, because our government genuinely sucks.

About the SAAB, it's not nearly as good as the Su-35. It's marginally better than the Mirage. The Su-35 is the only good option. F-16 comes in second... It's a decent second-rate fighter, and even if the US won't sell good missiles, we can build rear aspect piranhas.

Now, you say my preference of the Su-35 over the Mirage 2000 is stupid. So, of course, that could only make any sense if the Miragre 2000 was better than the Su-35. Can you please say how?

 

[Delance]

Yes, a simple google search was enought.

"The Mirage 2000 is very similar to the Mirage III/5 and 50, though it is not a variant of the Mirage III/5 or 50 but an entirely new aircraft with advanced interceptor controls."

Yeah, as I said. very similar. "Brande New" fighter of a very obsolete and outdated design.

Average Fighter, second rate in a very good day.

Now that's the stuff. A real Superfighter.

 

[panther]

Apparently the canards do tend to help with the weaknesses of Delta Wing fighters


Personally, I like the Sukhoi, but I think I'd want to upgrade the electronics as much as possible to make it a real superfighter

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Delance
Average Fighter, second rate in a very good day.

Ok, don't take this the wrong way, but doesn't this imply that by definition, the Mirage 2000 is the better choice for Brazil? A second-rate fighter for a second-rate power.

I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm just trying to state the obvious - Brazil doesn't need a fighter like the Su-37. Why waste money on equipment that will never be used? What, are you afraid that the US will attack you? Because really, that's what it would take for Su-37s to be useful in Brazil. Or what, are you so afraid of Ghost?

 

[Ghost]

No, he is afraid of the French Guyana or Ecuador

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Quarto
Ok, don't take this the wrong way, but doesn't this imply that by definition, the Mirage 2000 is the better choice for Brazil? A second-rate fighter for a second-rate power.

What makes Brazil a second rate power is the fact that is has second-rate equipment. Since the 80's we are on the top-10 largest economies of the world. The last time I checked, some years ago, the GNP of Brazil was superior to Russian AND China (except Hong Kong), combined. What makes Russia so important? Massive military power.

I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm just trying to state the obvious - Brazil doesn't need a fighter like the Su-37. Why waste money on equipment that will never be used? What, are you afraid that the US will attack you? Because really, that's what it would take for Su-37s to be useful in Brazil. Or what, are you so afraid of Ghost?

Look at it like this. Brazil will spend 700 million dollars. The price is set. Now, we can buy the best fighter of the world or, for the same price, a crappy outdated second rate fighter. It’s illogical to choose the Mirage, it won’t be cheaper or anything. The amount of money that will be spent is exactly the same, regardless of the fighter we choose.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Ghost
No, he is afraid of the French Guyana or Ecuador

The Equator doesn't even have a border with us. It's one of the two only countries in South America that don't. The other is Chile. Besides, the guy in Equator now sucks up to Fidel just like Lula.

 

[Ghost]

But Equator will conquer Peru,remember that!

 

[Delance]

I think their border dispute is only about a small region. Even if Equator captures is, it still won't have a border with Brazil.

Besides, Pery has THE MIGHTY MIRAGE 2000.

 

[Delance]

Double post, sorry.

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Delance
What makes Brazil a second rate power is the fact that is has second-rate equipment. Since the 80's we are on the top-10 largest economies of the world. The last time I checked, some years ago, the GNP of Brazil was superior to Russian AND China (except Hong Kong), combined. What makes Russia so important? Massive military power.

According to the CIA world factbook the GDP of Brazil is indeed a bit higher than Russia's, but less than 1/4 of China's. Plus, you have 22% population below the poverty line, 6% unemployment (doesn't seem like much, right? Well, it's 5 million people), and 8% inflation rates. You had to take IMF aid in 1998, and you had to devaluate your currency in 1999 just to maintain GDP growth. In spite of this, GDP growth has by 2001 slowed down to 2%.
That's not to disparage Brazil's economy - your 1.34 trillion GDP certainly dwarfs Poland's 340 billion . But, it does mean that you're not a first-rate power (economic or military) yet. There's no doubt that you will be, but in the meantime, there are more important things for you to focus on - while you're visiting this chatzone talking about how stupid your president is because he doesn't want to waste money on Su-37s, there are over 38 million Brazilians living below the poverty line.
More to the point, you're already the most powerful country in South America, and you'll never be able to rival the US, Russia or China anyway - Brazil doesn't actually need to have a more powerful military, because you won't achieve anything by it.

Look at it like this. Brazil will spend 700 million dollars. The price is set. Now, we can buy the best fighter of the world or, for the same price, a crappy outdated second rate fighter. It’s illogical to choose the Mirage, it won’t be cheaper or anything. The amount of money that will be spent is exactly the same, regardless of the fighter we choose.

Looking at it this way, I agree. But I'm not sure you're giving me all the facts here. Will spending 700 million mean the same amount of planes? Does the money get you just the planes or something more (you mentioned production on license earlier on), and if so, are the conditions the same in both cases? And, are the maintenance costs of a Su-37 the same as those of a Mirage 2000?
If the answer to all those questions is yes, the conditions are identical, then by all means, buying the Mirages would be downright foolish. But that seems rather doubtful to me - the Brazilian negotiators would have to be pretty inept if they couldn't get more Mirages than Su-37s for the same amount of money.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Quarto
According to the CIA world factbook the GDP of Brazil is indeed a bit higher than Russia's, but less than 1/4 of China's. Plus, you have 22% population below the poverty line, 6% unemployment (doesn't seem like much, right? Well, it's 5 million people), and 8% inflation rates. You had to take IMF aid in 1998, and you had to devaluate your currency in 1999 just to maintain GDP growth. In spite of this, GDP growth has by 2001 slowed down to 2%.
That's not to disparage Brazil's economy - your 1.34 trillion GDP certainly dwarfs Poland's 340 billion . But, it does mean that you're not a first-rate power (economic or military) yet. There's no doubt that you will be, but in the meantime, there are more important things for you to focus on - while you're visiting this chatzone talking about how stupid your president is because he doesn't want to waste money on Su-37s, there are over 38 million Brazilians living below the poverty line.

That was the continental China of some years ago, and without Hong Kong. With Hong Kong, China's economy is even greater.

Now our president is spending way more then 700 million to invent useless ministries to give jobs to his friends that were defeated in the recently elections. There's also this populist "zero hunger" project that will probably solve nothing. As long as our government confiscates 35% of everything that is produced and the interest rates are of 125%/year for the consumers, there will be no end to the economic crisis. The State keeps getting bigger. That's democracy, really. Not so long ago, a president renounced while being impeached under corruption charges. The last one was labeled as a "neoliberal", a word absolutely devoid of any actual meaning. Interestingly enough, he was also accused of enlarging the State, which is exactly the opposite thing of what an actual liberal should do, and at the same time is what his accusers vouch to do. The self-declared anti-liberal workers party allied with none other than the Liberal Party for the election. Of course, those words really have no meaning. Of course it's not liberal at all, it's just in name, like so many thigns here.

What I'm trying to say is that we have a lot of issues and that it will be hard to solve the povetry problem. But the 700 million of the new fighters won't really make a difference. As I said, the governemnt has a incredbly large budget because of very high taxes. That kind of taxes that will get your cities in civilization to get pissed off.

More to the point, you're already the most powerful country in South America, and you'll never be able to rival the US, Russia or China anyway - Brazil doesn't actually need to have a more powerful military, because you won't achieve anything by it.

I disagree. There plently to be won in havin a good military. I also don't see how being unable to defend ourselves would do us any good. We don't want to rival China, Russia or the US, just to have a military that matches our importance.

Looking at it this way, I agree. But I'm not sure you're giving me all the facts here. Will spending 700 million mean the same amount of planes? Does the money get you just the planes or something more (you mentioned production on license earlier on), and if so, are the conditions the same in both cases? And, are the maintenance costs of a Su-37 the same as those of a Mirage 2000?

Probably much cheaper. The Su-37 has simple electronics, and it's easier to maintain. It's build by Russians and Ukrainians, after all. Mirage parts must be paid in Euros. Who cares? It would be better to have a few superfighter than a lot of target practice.

But that’s not an issue, the money for maintenance will come out of the FAB’s budget anyway. Besides, it’s the FAB that wants the Su-37, so they probably have it all figured out. This isn’t the US, their budget is really tight.

The French said they would transfer tech to Embraer. The Ukranians said they would transfer tech to Avibras. Embraer says that, since they are more experienced, they know how to make better presentations. Nice, isn’t it? They don’t say they have the best product, just that they know the government more and know how to sell it better. Of course, Lula downright ignored that the Su-37 would also means technology for us, and said it would not be good to buy the F-16 because there would be no tech transfer. While it’s partially true, it don’t give the Mirage any special advantage over the Su-37.

If the answer to all those questions is yes, the conditions are identical, then by all means, buying the Mirages would be downright foolish. But that seems rather doubtful to me - the Brazilian negotiators would have to be pretty inept if they couldn't get more Mirages than Su-37s for the same amount of money.

There is no negotiation per se - it's a licitation (not sure if this is the correct word in English). The decision is purely political, they simply don't care about the plane itself, or how good it would be for the air force. And yes, the “political officers” responsible are that inept. Do you think I like it? Do you think the FAB likes it? You bet they don’t. But the Military have no prestige, they even lost their ministries and now have to answer to a civilian defense minister.

 

[HammerHead]

As was stated before, the Mirage 2000 is based on one of the best fighter-craft........of the late 1960's and early 1970's (Mirage III).

I'm not trying to be insulting, but the delta wing, as a single air surface of an aircraft, is obsolete.
Sure, the Saab 39 Gripen has delta wings, but it also has canards.
Also, I don't know if you checked, but the F-16 is also using a delta wing. It also utilizes standard fashion tail fins.

Just for an exsample, in a case of an engine problem, the altitude loss is rated at 12,000 feet per minute (thats about 4 KM per minute)

I'd say, go with either the SU-35 or it's american counterparts. Even the Raafal is a better alternative.

 

[NoRemorse]

Delance, I love the way you're telling me that the Su-35 is better: with pictures ! oh yeah the M2000 is similar to the MIII... no it has a similar shape; SHAPE. You are comparing the design... as you wish

Where did you get that we are retiring the M2000 from the french air force ? I know we're building M2000-5 to improve it actually...

btw, I have never said that your preference was stupid... I said the way you are criticizing the M2000 is stupid...
And the Rafales would be a very nice fighter for you, but it is too expensive for Brazil...

 

[Lynx]

Originally posted by HammerHead

I'm not trying to be insulting, but the delta wing, as a single air surface of an aircraft, is obsolete.

It's not obsolete, it's just another style of design. The Eurofighter, for example, is reported to be quite potent based on the tests and it uses the same style.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by NoRemorse
btw, I have never said that your preference was stupid... I said the way you are criticizing the M2000 is stupid...
And the Rafales would be a very nice fighter for you, but it is too expensive for Brazil...

Then they would not be nice to us. Anywway, how is the Mirage 2000 superior to Su-37 exactaly? Or even the Rafale, for that matter.

 

[Delance]

Allright, some new info on the subject can be found here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/brazil/fx-br.htm

A nice page in english about Brazil's F-X project.

You can also read how Brazil used to have a great military industry here.

 

[Starkey]

The Rafale is a great fighter. The Mirage 2000 ain´t.

Now, the Su-35/37 has appeared in some comparisons to the Eurofighter and the F-22. It loses to them, but not by much. Do I need to say more?

Anyway, France is willing to sell us a *special*version of the Mirage 2000, called the "Mirage 2000-5BR", which obviously would be stripped of the latest technology advances. Russia, on the other hand, agreed to sell us the same Su-35 that they use.

Quarto, I don´t have all the facts now, but I know that the money that will be spent on the fighters would come from a special credit line in such a way that it couldn´t be used for other purposes, anyway.

And Delance is right, our old Mirages have been crashing at a rate of 2 per year (one last week) and the mechanics say that pretty soon they will end up like our old carrier-based Mirages: they will have no way of safely put them in the air anymore.

(BTW, we ended up selling those Mirages to some African country. Poor people.)

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Delance
Now our president is spending way more then 700 million to invent useless ministries to give jobs to his friends that were defeated in the recently elections. There's also this populist "zero hunger" project that will probably solve nothing. As long as our government confiscates 35% of everything that is produced and the interest rates are of 125%/year for the consumers, there will be no end to the economic crisis. The State keeps getting bigger. That's democracy, really.

Sounds a lot like Poland... well, except that Polish taxes are even higher, IIRC. But yeah, I can see what you're saying.

I disagree. There plently to be won in havin a good military. I also don't see how being unable to defend ourselves would do us any good. We don't want to rival China, Russia or the US, just to have a military that matches our importance.

But Brazil already has a far more powerful military than its neighbours. There is no country in your region that could threaten Brazil in any way, and the only global players that could reach Brazil are those that could kick its ass regardless of how much it spends on the military. A military to match your importance? If Brazil wants to spend money on something to show its importance, please, invest in the space programme.

Reading the information from the links you posted, I tend to agree - the Su-37 (35?) seems to be the best choice, though. I don't think Brazil actually needs it, but if a choice had be made, then the Su-37 would be the way to go. I was also mildly amused by the reasons for the downfall of the Brazilian arms industry...

 

[Starkey]

When I talked about the "carrier based Mirages" and "Mirages we sold to Africa" read HARRIERS. My mistake, sorry.

About other countries in Latin America, Quarto, we do have a good army and the best navy in the region, but our Airforce sucks bad, I think Peru could wipe our planes out quickly with their F-16s.

And why would we be worried about that? Well, Brazil has been an important moderator in the Latin America conflicts, and having a relatively large military power helps a lot on that. And I´m sure our squadrons of F-5s, *Mirages IIIEBR* and A-4s don´t help much. The only noticeable fighter we have is the AMX, but it is used for bombing runs only, for being too slow.