Critique of UE ships

Ijuin

Admiral
After playing through most of the UE main and simulator missions, I have found that the game captures the original feeling of the ships quite well.

Border Worlds Ships:

Ferret: Combining unmatched speed with moderately light shields and armor, I think that this ship is great to fly unless you are surrounded by heavy opponents such as Mantas. It has the lightest missile loadout with only 2 DF/2 HS, but its rapid-fire energy-efficient Mass Drivers pack a good punch at close range.
Nitpick: I wish the Ferret had autoslide like the Epee does (Yes, I know that you only fly it in the simulator missions, but I still wish it had autoslide).

Epee: A little slower than the Ferret, but with a slightly higher turning rate. True to its memory, the Epee has paper-thin armor, barely more than half as much as the Ferret. Flying this fighter means that you have to take special care never to get hit. It packs a bigger offensive punch than the Ferret, with an additional pair of HS missiles and the single Heavy Stormfire cannon.
Nitpick: the single light topredo that is carries means that I have to keep nearly all of my wingmen alive to take down a capital ship (such as the Fralthi and Ralari in the first two missions). I would like to see it carry two light torps instead, or maybe a single heavy torp.

The Ferret and Epee are well-balanced against each other, with the Ferret having the superior defense by virtue of its heavier armor and greater speed, and the Epee having greater offensive punch.

Scimitar: Just like Icemen said in WC1, it handles "like a Centaurian mud pig". It is the slowest of the non-bombers, but its comparatively heavy armor and fast shield regeneration makes it survivable as long as you don't let anything heavier than a Moray get on your tail. The Viper cannons can shred enemies faster than anything in the game except the Stormfire, and the 4 DF/4 HS missile loadout is adequate, although barely so.
Nitpick: The gun capacitors take too long to recharge on the Scimitar. It has kickass guns, but after you fire them you have to dodge around for twenty seconds before you can use them again.

Banshee: Upgraded from its WC4 stats, it has good shields and armor, and a powerful missile loadout-- 2 DF/8 HS/4 IR/2 HARM. It has good speed and agility--only slightly below the Epee, and it has quad Lasers for taking on light ships and dual Heavy Stormfires for taking on heavier opponents (the Lasers are NOT reccommended against Mantas or heavier).
Nitpick: The HARM missiles are never used except against the turrets of the destroyer at the Venice jump point in mission 9. I would prefer to replace them with a pair of dumbfires, changing the loadout to 4 DF/4 HS/4 IR.

Bearcat: This ship has slightly heavier shields and armor than the Banshee, but has about the same speed and agility, plus autoslide. The quad Light Tachyon cannons are enough heavier than the Banshee's Lasers that it doesn't need to have the Heavy Stormfire cannons to take on heavier enemies, plus it has a decent missile loadout.
Nitpick: This is the only BW fighter that doesn't mount Dumbfires!

Avenger: The dual Ion and dual Viper cannons make for a good gun loadout, and the 6 IR/6 FF/4 Hvy Torp loadout is good as well. The shields, armor, speed, and turning rate have all recieved a mild upgrade over the WC4 version as well. Given that the Viper cannons are capable of damaging capship components once you have used up your torps, it makes for a good medium bomber.
Nitpick: The heavier rear turret with its dual Ion cannons seems not to auto-fire while you are in the front cockpit, as opposed to the regular WCP laser turrets. Having the turret auto-fire and protect my rear is worth more to me than the heavier guns. Does it not auto-fire for the rest of you as well, or is this just me? If it does not auto-fire, then I think I would prefer to have a normal turret instead.

Kilrathi Ships:

Salthi: With thinner shields than the Epee and less offensive punch with its dual Lasers and lighter missile loadout, the Salthi is a piece of junk not worth flying. Good thing you never actually fly it outside of the simulator.
Nitpick: Hell, just skip flying this thing altogether unless you love being outgunned.


Dralthi: The Dralthi has shields and armor just slightly better than the Epee, and its speed is about halfway between the Epee and the Scimitar. Its missile load and the dual Laser and single Tachyon cannon give it an offensive punch about halfway between the Epee and the Scimitar as well. It is a fairly good light/medium fighter in the right hands.
Nitpick: This thing is too slow to be a light fighter, but too lightly shielded to be a medium fighter. Either boost its speed to 500 kps cruise /1350 kps afterburner or give it an additional 20 armor and 40 shields.

Vaktoth: This fighter has the heaviest gun loadout in the game with dual Particle Cannons, dual Ion Cannons, and a single Tachyon Cannon. It also has a turret. Speed is slightly greater than the Scimitar, with a decent missile loadout.
Nitpick: This thing has a bomber turret but no torps! Give it a pair of light torps.

Grathra: The Grathra is comparatively slow, but its 6 DF/6 HS/ 2 Hvy Torp/4 Lt Torp missile loadout and its dual Mass Drivers and Tachyon Cannons mean that anybody caught in front of it is in deep trouble. Quite nice as a light bomber.
Nitpick: Give this baby a turret and I'll take it over the Shrike any day!

Kha'ha'haf: Speed and agility are comparable to the Scimitar. It carries sixteen mines, which are great to dump in an enemy's face, and its Ion Cannons and Mass Drivers chew up enemies. Plus, you can't beat the camoflage! Just an innocent little hunk of rock...NOT!
Nitpick: The asteroid fighter, despite all its benefits, carries no dumbfires!

All in all, I think that the fighters are well-balanced against each other, although they seem slightly underpowered against the Nephilim ships, especially the Mantas--I have found it difficult to kill Mantas at all without resorting to missiles or Stormfire guns unless I am flying the gun-heavy ships (Vaktoth, Kha'ha'haf, Avenger).
 
All in all, it sounds like we did our job right :).The idea was to upgrade the old fighters to a state of flyability in the WCP era, but we were careful about not fixing the flaws of the original designs. So, none of our ships are anywhere close to perfection. All of them could benefit from little touches like increasing the Scim's gun recharge, for example.

About the Avenger, I don't know what's up with that turret. I can't say I've noticed anything like that, but I hardly ever fly the Avenger. I know for sure that it fires at you, though.
 
Well all of the ships are flyable except for the Salthi--that one is just a piece of junk with a big "shoot me" sign on its back. Quite nimble, but it is no good as a player-controlled ship--they are only useful in groups. As for the rest, they are all decently balanced in my opinion with the exception of the Epee/torpedo issue I mentioned previously--in missions 1 and 2, you need to keep nearly all of your wingmen alive in order to have enough torps to take down the Fralthi and Ralari, and it is just not practical to babysit half a dozen wingmen simultaneously.
 
I agree with you Quarto, the ships are better if they are not perfect, but I think you could do something for "next year´s specs" of the Pancake (more agility, speed) and the Vaktoth (a pair of torpedos). That would make the game more difficult and make those ships as tough as the Grathas.

I must also say that I really like the way the bombers are hard to control (Avenger and Gratha), you really put the Longbow and Devastator feeling into them.

For UE2, maybe you could consider *upgrading* the Salthi to the WC2 Sartha, with the Neutron Guns and better shields, that would make them more of a challenge.
 
The thing about the Salthi, Ijuin, is that it's easy to kill one Salthi, but... ;)
As for the Epee, you don't actually need to worry about keeping the other Epees alive in the Fralthi & Ralari missions. In mission 1, you only need to capture the Fralthi. In mission 2A, you have a bunch of Gratha on your side. And in 2B... well... let's just say the Dauntless isn't entirely defenceless...

Starkey, we didn't actually touch the Dralthi and Vaktoth... we didn't have an excuse to :p. Since they both appeared in WCP, their 2681 stats had been pretty much established.
Sartha would be neat (and, like so many of our existing fighters, we can import them from Brazil ;)), but at this stage I don't think there will be very many hostile Kilrathi in UE2.
 
Yo..I love these discussions!

I like the improved old ships very much.The upgrades are reallistic!
The only thing tha bothered me is the Banshee.My old favorite Wc4 (along with Hellcat) favorite ship,is not upgraded but downgraded...:(

Well it has the powerfull heavy Stormire,but the laser`s refire rate is much much slower than the WC4 Banshee..(its not mentioned down there)

Well, forget the Banshee.The job is great.
 
Originally posted by TCSTigersClaw
Well it has the powerfull heavy Stormire,but the laser`s refire rate is much much slower than the WC4 Banshee..(its not mentioned down there)

The thing is the refire rate is actually the same as in WC4 AFAIK. It just looks like the WCP engine does something differently. Turn the lasers to single fire mode and you will see they are rather fast actually.
 
Yes I know, (I have them always in single-fire) but in WC4 they fire as fast as UE`s Bansee but with Dual lasers,not single. :(
 
Originally posted by Quarto
The thing about the Salthi, Ijuin, is that it's easy to kill one Salthi, but... ;)

Sartha would be neat (and, like so many of our existing fighters, we can import them from Brazil ;)), but at this stage I don't think there will be very many hostile Kilrathi in UE2.

Heh. Yeah, I said that in my last post--a group of four or more Salthi are deadly, but it totally sucks as a player-controlled ship--the Epee outclasses it completely, and that's saying something.

As for the Sartha, I am imagining maybe like the Salthi but with Ion guns instead of Lasers (Neutron guns have been superceeded by Ion guns by WCP era), and with an extra 20 armor/20 shields.
 
wc1salthi.jpg

wc2sartha.jpg


I wouldn´t like to see just a Salthi with better stats, a Sartha looks quite different, as you can see from the pictures.

It could have the Neutron guns, instead of the Ion cannons. The *reason* is that the Kilrathi don´t have newer technology.
 
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Originally posted by cff
The thing is the refire rate is actually the same as in WC4 AFAIK. It just looks like the WCP engine does something differently. Turn the lasers to single fire mode and you will see they are rather fast actually.

Exactly. What happens in WCP is that if you have N of a certain type of guns, and they each have a refire delay time of T, then the refire time for firing them all at once is N*T.

To give an example, the Laser has a refire delay of 250 milliseconds. If you have four Lasers and fire them all at once, then the delay till you can refire them is 4 * 250 = 1000 milliseconds.

This is different from the WC 3/4 method in which the number of guns that you are firing has no bearing on their refire time. It also explains why the Panther's 2 Tachyon/2 Ion cannons can destroy an enemy faster than using the Vampire's 4 Tachyon cannons--the Panther can fire its 2 Tachyon cannons four times (eight bolts total) in the same amount of time that the Vampire can fire its four tachyon cannons twice (also eight bolts total).

As a result, you are actually better off having three pairs of lighter guns (such as 2 Laser/2 Ion/2 Particle) than you would be having six Tachyons or Cloudbursts. The Tachyons may fire a huge bolt of destruction all at once, but like with the Devastator's Plasma Cannon, you have to wait several seconds before you can fire that second shot you need for the kill.
 
Originally posted by Starkey
[B
I wouldn´t like to see just a Salthi with better stats, a Sartha looks quite different, as you can see from the pictures.

It could have the Neutron guns, instead of the Ion cannons. The *reason* is that the Kilrathi don´t have newer technology. [/B]

Well the problem there is that WCP doesn't HAVE Neutron guns in its list of guns--one would have to recreate them like a new gun. Besides, given the stats on Neutron guns from WC3, the Ion Cannons have the same attack power (30 units), combined with a longer range and faster refire rate.
 
Originally posted by Filler
I definately want to see hellcats.

Yeah, let's see some of those old ex-Confed ships from WC3--the Arrows, Hellcats, Thunderbolts, and Longbows. The UE fiction DID make references to the BW purchasing some Longbows from Confed...I would make the Longbow slightly inferior to the UE Avenger from the simulator missions--500 shields/300 armor (vs. the 450/375 for Avenger), cruise at 320 and afterburn at 720 (vs. 400/850), turn at 50/50/50 (vs. 50/70/50), 4 heavy torps/8 FF/ 8 IR, and with 2 Ion/2 Particle guns in front (note that this is extremely close to the WC3 stats for Longbow).
 
Originally posted by TCSTigersClaw
Yo..I love these discussions!

I like the improved old ships very much.The upgrades are reallistic!
The only thing tha bothered me is the Banshee.My old favorite Wc4 (along with Hellcat) favorite ship,is not upgraded but downgraded...:(

Well it has the powerfull heavy Stormire,but the laser`s refire rate is much much slower than the WC4 Banshee..(its not mentioned down there)

Well, forget the Banshee.The job is great.

True, the lasers fire slower, but that is a problem of the WCP/SO engine and not the Banshee per se. Even with the slower refire rate, its guns are still more powerful than the Epee or Ferret. And in the other areas, the Banshee definitely got an upgrade--it now cruises at 550 and afterburns at 1550 instead of the previous 500/1300, it has nearly double the armor as it did in WC4, and it has sixteen missiles instead of eight.
 
Originally posted by Ijuin
Well the problem there is that WCP doesn't HAVE Neutron guns

It doesn´t have Viper Cannons either ;) I know the Ion cannon is better but I choose nostalgia over technology.
 
Originally posted by Filler
I definately want to see hellcats.

Hellcat is my favorite ship!I want to see em too.Imagine a Hellcat modified by the BorderWorlds....with dual Particle and dual Viper Cannons!Ohhhhhhh man!

Come on UE team.We want Hellcat in your sequel!:cool:
 
I´m tired of Hellcats :(
Hellcats in WCA (cartoon),WC3,WC4 (the lamest one)

I don´t need your stinky Hellcat
 
Originally posted by TCSTigersClaw
Hellcat is my favorite ship!I want to see em too.Imagine a Hellcat modified by the BorderWorlds....with dual Particle and dual Viper Cannons!Ohhhhhhh man!
Well, even if the Hellcat would appear, it definitely wouldn't have Viper cannons... those are only mounted on new ships. The Scims on the Dauntless really only had them for testing, and the new Avenger may not even go into production.
 
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