I know that someone probably already asked this, but in the scene in which the BW fleet is attacking the bugs, it looks like there are two Concordia class ships. I am only aware of the Princeton being the only active BW Concordia. Did the BW somehow acquire another one, or is it supposed to be a Ranger-class ship like the Victory. I would post a picture, but I am not a regular.
Concordias
- Thread starter Balrog
- Start date
psych
Destroyer of assclowns
I would seriously doubt the BWers would even keep a fleet carrier like the TCS Princeton after the 2673 conflict. It would mean serious, and I mean serious political consequencies of not giving it back. It's the same thing as a third world country hijacking one of the US's own Nimitz-class carriers. And what if that same country say "I want peace!" but refuse to give the carrier back? Think about it...
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
The first ship in the cutscene is indeed the Princeton. The other ship in the background is supposed to be a Ranger-class, but we didn't have a model for it, and I hoped nobody would notice that it's much too big for a Ranger 
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), I do think that considering the situation, it is possible. After all, it wasn't the third-world country that requested peace in this case, it was Confed. Once they accepted their responsibility for the conflict, they really wouldn't have been in a position to make any demands from the Border Worlds - attempted genocide isn't something you can just apologise for, after all.
An alternative solution would be that there is some kind of lease agreement in place - according to the WC4 novel, Confed had leased some carriers to the Border Worlds even before the conflict. So, maybe the BW didn't simply keep the Princeton, but instead lease it.
One day, when Standoff is finished, I think we'll go back to UE and update it to fix such factual mistakes... the neat thing about fan projects is that because they're not canon, you can make such changes without people complaining.
.Well, while I agree that we stretched things quite a bit with the Princeton (and not just the Princeton - the Bengals are also quite questionablepsych said:
), I do think that considering the situation, it is possible. After all, it wasn't the third-world country that requested peace in this case, it was Confed. Once they accepted their responsibility for the conflict, they really wouldn't have been in a position to make any demands from the Border Worlds - attempted genocide isn't something you can just apologise for, after all.An alternative solution would be that there is some kind of lease agreement in place - according to the WC4 novel, Confed had leased some carriers to the Border Worlds even before the conflict. So, maybe the BW didn't simply keep the Princeton, but instead lease it.
One day, when Standoff is finished, I think we'll go back to UE and update it to fix such factual mistakes... the neat thing about fan projects is that because they're not canon, you can make such changes without people complaining
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psych
Destroyer of assclowns
Bob McDob said:
Confed can easily put the political blame on Tolwyn and rid themselves of any guilt, Senator Taggart did this well by acknowledging full freedom of the press in Tolwyn's Court Martial, rather then doing the traditional "The Fleet takes care of their own".
Another problem is the crew and the fighter complement. Is that going to stay in BW service? Since some of the crew signed up with Blair, will they be charged as traitors, or prisoners of war, or will they have to go through Captain's Mast and a court martial? What about the fighter complement? Will that be withdrawn back to Confed, or will Confed just give out government handouts and let them take it all for free?
I can seriously see leasing ships over to them and vice versa though. For example, let the Border Worlds lease the Princeton for a few years to help what's left of their forces and get them up and running, while the Intrepid was used as a training carrier (at the end of WC4). But in all due time, they'll have to be withdrawn back to their original services.
But if this isn't satisfying, we an always use the WC Aces liberal interpretation and say that the BWs can build their own fleet carriers and uberfighters, because they just magically pulled enough money out of their asses. And of course, assuming that any shipyards they build (the Border Worlds are in the buffer zone between Confed and the Kilrathi), will just be ignored and get classified as a low priority target when the Kats decide to cross into the border for a nice raid.
Kat 1: "hey, isn't that Border World shipyard a high priority target?"
Kat 2: "no! even though the Border Worlders are fools to put a major shipyard this close to the border, let's ignore it so we'll give them the chance to build their own fleet carriers!"
Kat 1: "yeah! So what do we attack?"
Kat 2: "let's attack that unmanned drone over there! it's a lot better target for our raids"
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
That wasn't quite the point, though... the decision to make Tolwyn's court martial public was designed with the very opposite effect in mind. Instead of putting the blame on Tolwyn, they wanted to ensure that there would be no doubt in anyone's mind that none of the *other* guilty parties are being protected. We can be quite certain that dozens of other heads rolled as a consequence of this trial - we know from the WC4 novel that Tolwyn wasn't acting alone. He was supported by several admirals. Thus, this wasn't something that can be blamed on one psychopath - the conspiracy is too large. Furthermore, even the innocent elements of the fleet are guilty by proxy, because they didn't put a stop to the whole thing. And this guilt extends into the government and the senate - although they could plead ignorance, promoting a genocidal maniac to Space Marshall still doesn't look too good.psych said:
Well, Confed does have an exchange agreement with the BW now, so crew is not an issue (though I'd imagine most Confed defectors would've gone back at the first opportunity). And as for fighters and other material... remember that, while the Border Worlds did knock out a few Confed ships, they did so in self defense, whereas Confed didn't have such an excuse for the losses they inflicted. The Border Worlds had every right to keep war prizes as reparation.
Right. Fortunately for us, such lease agreements in the real world often last for decades, usually only ending when the ship in question isn't worth keeping any more, and is transferred back only to be scrapped.
At any rate, the point is that one way or another, the operation of the Princeton under a BW flag can be explained away in some kind of sensible fashion. I'd actually love to hear if you've found other such issues in UE that might require fixing - we did try as much as possible to work with what we know of the BW from WC canon, but we did necessarily also take a few liberties, if only to ensure that the BW circa 2681 weren't just a clone of the 2673 BW.
Heh, that's a direction we most certainly do not want to go
.Sounds like a good plan. But I think that UE is an awesome game, and I am eagerly awaiting Standoff.Quarto said:One day, when Standoff is finished, I think we'll go back to UE and update it to fix such factual mistakes... the neat thing about fan projects is that because they're not canon, you can make such changes without people complaining
psych
Destroyer of assclowns
Yo Quarto,
I'll see what I can do as far as your old UE fiction goes, but I do remembered that you guys were very squared away as far as that was concerned. I liked how UE protrayed the BWs as a struggling colonial nation forced to make ends meet rather then a swimming-in-a-pool-of-gold Confed Jr with shiny new fleet carriers, battle cruisers, and super fighters all crewed by badass ex-Confed/privateers/studs who got laid in their off-hours from their duty as Wing Commander
And I do see your argument about the war reperations. You do have a point. Maybe there would be some sort of commitee, a joint Confed-BW thing, that will investigate to see which ones were got in self-defense, etc etc. I think the reason I like to mention this was because Admiral Wilford was depressed after revealing to Blair in the WC4 novel, during the Speradon campaign, that all he did to capture the Princeton, get fighters, weapons, loot, was to show the rest of the world that the Border Worlders were on the offensive (at least for that campaign). His offensive pretty much alienated themselves from the political moderates, who were sympathizers, to the point they wouldn't dare publically announce their support. Plus the fact that they also killed several thousand civilians and technicians when they took down the orbital factories, will no doubtly be milked beyond comprehension in the Confed's News Network. So the Confeds were not the only guilty party. Of course a couple of thousands is nothing compared to 10 million in Telamon, but of course, leave it up to the news to distort/downplay things.
I'm not trying to argue against ya Quarto, I'm just trying to see all ends of the spectrum and try to reach a logical solution to it all.
I'll see what I can do as far as your old UE fiction goes, but I do remembered that you guys were very squared away as far as that was concerned. I liked how UE protrayed the BWs as a struggling colonial nation forced to make ends meet rather then a swimming-in-a-pool-of-gold Confed Jr with shiny new fleet carriers, battle cruisers, and super fighters all crewed by badass ex-Confed/privateers/studs who got laid in their off-hours from their duty as Wing Commander
And I do see your argument about the war reperations. You do have a point. Maybe there would be some sort of commitee, a joint Confed-BW thing, that will investigate to see which ones were got in self-defense, etc etc. I think the reason I like to mention this was because Admiral Wilford was depressed after revealing to Blair in the WC4 novel, during the Speradon campaign, that all he did to capture the Princeton, get fighters, weapons, loot, was to show the rest of the world that the Border Worlders were on the offensive (at least for that campaign). His offensive pretty much alienated themselves from the political moderates, who were sympathizers, to the point they wouldn't dare publically announce their support. Plus the fact that they also killed several thousand civilians and technicians when they took down the orbital factories, will no doubtly be milked beyond comprehension in the Confed's News Network. So the Confeds were not the only guilty party. Of course a couple of thousands is nothing compared to 10 million in Telamon, but of course, leave it up to the news to distort/downplay things.
I'm not trying to argue against ya Quarto, I'm just trying to see all ends of the spectrum and try to reach a logical solution to it all.
psych
Destroyer of assclowns
The St. Helens . . . really. Then explain to me how the St. Helens was destroyed in SO when it was under Confederation colors.
I can understand that the Border Worlders are a prickly, rough-and-tumble, and paranoid in nature. But let's ask this. Even at the end of war, when all is over with, why did they lease the Intrepid, their FLAGSHIP, to the Confed forces? If Admiral Wilford still hated the Confed forces and regarded them as the evil empire (play Imperial March), then why would he lease his flagship, plus her fighters, to the Confed forces. The Intrepid is, as you have said in your own words, a "perfectly good carrier". In fact, the Intrepid still had her armament, while the Princeton had all of her weapons skinned and it would take a while to refit her back.
And if Wilford so hated Confed and was paranoid so much, why would he actively go back into Confed and take a paycut from BW Admiral to Captain? And why did Hawk, who during WC4 advocated fighting the Confed as much as possible and had a "take as many of the bastards down with me", and wanted to use the flashpak? And why did Dekker? Logic states that one does not enlist himself into faction in which one he is really paranoid about.
Come on Balrog, we are all looking forward to your answer. Show us all how good a 15-year old can back up his claims.
I can understand that the Border Worlders are a prickly, rough-and-tumble, and paranoid in nature. But let's ask this. Even at the end of war, when all is over with, why did they lease the Intrepid, their FLAGSHIP, to the Confed forces? If Admiral Wilford still hated the Confed forces and regarded them as the evil empire (play Imperial March), then why would he lease his flagship, plus her fighters, to the Confed forces. The Intrepid is, as you have said in your own words, a "perfectly good carrier". In fact, the Intrepid still had her armament, while the Princeton had all of her weapons skinned and it would take a while to refit her back.
And if Wilford so hated Confed and was paranoid so much, why would he actively go back into Confed and take a paycut from BW Admiral to Captain? And why did Hawk, who during WC4 advocated fighting the Confed as much as possible and had a "take as many of the bastards down with me", and wanted to use the flashpak? And why did Dekker? Logic states that one does not enlist himself into faction in which one he is really paranoid about.
Come on Balrog, we are all looking forward to your answer. Show us all how good a 15-year old can back up his claims.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Indeed. I would add that the St. Helens never flew under BW colours, even in WC4.psych said:
Definitely. I'd also much rather find logical explanations for UE's liberties, even if it making slight changes. The whole point of UE, after all, wasn't to present the "what would be cool" view of the Border Worlds with superfighters and supercarriers, but instead take what we know of them circa WC4, and speculate about how they might reasonably have developed over the decade.
In the WC4N, it says that Eisen and some friends took over the St. Helens, I never meant that it flew under BW colors.
I meant the Princeton, not the Intrepid, and by perfectly good, I meant with its hull and internal systems basically intact.
The purpose of this thread was to ask for a few clarifying details about the game, not too explain the whole WC universe. And I bet that these issues were probably already beaten into the dust. That's all I got.
psych said:
I meant the Princeton, not the Intrepid, and by perfectly good, I meant with its hull and internal systems basically intact.
psych said:
The purpose of this thread was to ask for a few clarifying details about the game, not too explain the whole WC universe. And I bet that these issues were probably already beaten into the dust. That's all I got.