Concordia vs Hakaga

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They didn't continue building the Confederation class because they couldn't afford to in the ending years of the war. The escort carriers were built so that Confed could have a fighter presence in multiple systems without needing full carriers in those systems. By the time they had the ability to continue manufacturing new ships after the war, there were already better designs than the Confederation in use, like the Vesuvius.

Edit: It also could have been a combination of this and Quarto's reason above.
 
Sarty said:
They didn't continue building the Confederation class because they couldn't afford to in the ending years of the war. The escort carriers were built so that Confed could have a fighter presence in multiple systems without needing full carriers in those systems. By the time they had the ability to continue manufacturing new ships after the war, there were already better designs than the Confederation in use, like the Vesuvius.

Edit: It also could have been a combination of this and Quarto's reason above.
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The CVEs were constructed as stop-gap measures to fill in for the losses suffered in the mid-2660s. A fleet CV takes 5 years to construct and they were simply losing them faster than they could be produced. CVEs were a quick alternative that could fill in as new ships came on line. Money wasn't as much as an issue as you might think. I forget the exact numbers Jamison uses in FA to argue for the cease-fire, but they are big, but Confed is a massive economic system that was suffering from the war but was still functioning well. The only shipyards that were heavily damaged or destroyed were those on the Moon. The other yards in Sol were untouched by BoT so there productin continued at a quicker pace.
 
Yeah I guess Quarto has a good point about risking your most expensive capship in battle. One of the late missions in Wing Commander 3 demostrates this. You escort a heavy cruiser the 'Ajax' against 2 kilrathi bombers and a cruiser. Now the Ajax one on one can take out the Kilrathi cruiser but taking serious damage in the process. However the 2 Kilrathi bombers launch 2 torpedoes onto the Ajax before they are chopped up by its AMGs. 2 Torpedoes nearly kills the cruiser and unless Blair fights like a machine and knocks out the kilrathi cruiser it minces whats left of the Ajax in seconds.

So I guess the point is that torpedo bombers are far cheaper and more dangerous than a capship cause the torpedoes still fire before the AMGs can knock the bombers out and the wimpy long range point defense lasers are useless. And that makes you wonder what the point is in Confed producing hte new Tallahassee Cruiser. Sure they have great firepower but the Waterloo's carried a lot more fighters which gives them much more flexibility. And lack of fighter capacity was one of the main reasons as two why confed was being killed by the kilrathi in the mid 2660s.
 
Redaxe said:
So I guess the point is that torpedo bombers are far cheaper and more dangerous than a capship cause the torpedoes still fire before the AMGs can knock the bombers out and the wimpy long range point defense lasers are useless. And that makes you wonder what the point is in Confed producing hte new Tallahassee Cruiser. Sure they have great firepower but the Waterloo's carried a lot more fighters which gives them much more flexibility. And lack of fighter capacity was one of the main reasons as two why confed was being killed by the kilrathi in the mid 2660s.
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You can't park a fighter on the border and have it hold the lines for months or years at a time. Bombers are also a lot larger/cumbersome/more expensive than point defense fighters, and were there not two present in the scenario you describe, the Kilrathi Cruiser would have been dead meat. The Waterloo is practically a Light Carrier. Many smaller cruisers and destroyers carry a small fighter contingent that would defend it against bombers. I believe only one of the Victory's three escorts had such a squadron during the time of WC3 however.
 
I suppose the ultimate question would be...

Vesuvius vs. Hakaga?

Think about that for a second... both are massive, extremely well armored, and carry a butt-load of fighters. I'm not sure as to how well armed the Hakaga is, but we know that the Vesuvius packs one hell of mean punch. Without the presence of stupid things like Flash-packs and PTC's and the like, these two ships would rely on fighters and their own guns. How do you think that fight would turn out?

Personally, Vesuvius gets my vote. I always thought it was the best ship ever. It probably would have kicked the crap out of the Midway.
 
Vesuvius vs. Hakaga? They're both carriers... which probably makes that question less interesting than the original one. :p
 
Eder said:
Vesuvius vs. Hakaga? They're both carriers... which probably makes that question less interesting than the original one. :p
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Hehe, it'd probably be down to the experience of the crews. Especially the pilots. :)
 
Lt.Death100 said:
Hehe, it'd probably be down to the experience of the crews. Especially the pilots. :)
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Which is an intangible sort of thing that can't be debated in this way, since you destroy any ship versus ship discussion by claiming one ship has a much more experienced/capable crew than the other. The Vesuvius can carry about a third more fighters, so the odds are probably in its favor.
 
Reading the last few posts made me think of an interesting hypothetical.

Would a flashpak work on a Hakaga as well as on other ships? My reason for asking is because we know that Hakagas have concentric layers of armor that are designed to protect the ship from outside damage. I was wondering if they would also give protection from the Flashpaks ability to superheat the atmosphere...
 
They blew them from the inside.
In Wing IV they blew the Vesuvius from the inside because the armor was too thick on the outside using the flashpack...

So my guess would be yes. Park your ass in the hanger and let her rip.
 
RATM said:
They blew them from the inside.
In Wing IV they blew the Vesuvius from the inside because the armor was too thick on the outside using the flashpack...

So my guess would be yes. Park your ass in the hanger and let her rip.
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Not really the same on a Hakaga. It doesn't have "fly through" flight decks. It has 6 self-contained flight decks. You would not be able to make such an attack run on a Hakaga and even if you could I don't think the effect from a pak would destroy the ship, all the flight decks are self-contained so the flashpaks effects might not carry throughout the ship.
 
Dundradal said:
Not really the same on a Hakaga. It doesn't have "fly through" flight decks. It has 6 self-contained flight decks. You would not be able to make such an attack run on a Hakaga and even if you could I don't think the effect from a pak would destroy the ship, all the flight decks are self-contained so the flashpaks effects might not carry throughout the ship.
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True, but as Confed marines were to find out, they're pretty thin on the inside. We've seen what flash-paks can do; it might not destroy the Hakaga completely, but oh she'd be hurtin...
 
In Wing IV they blew the Vesuvius from the inside because the armor was too thick on the outside using the flashpack...
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It wasn't that it was too thick - the skin of the ship was made from a special alloy that prevented the weapon from being useful.
 
Crazy J said:
True, but as Confed marines were to find out, they're pretty thin on the inside. We've seen what flash-paks can do; it might not destroy the Hakaga completely, but oh she'd be hurtin...
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Not neccesarily thin, but unprepared for the tactics that were used. They didn't expect ground troops landing on the flight deck in the middle of a fleet action. They had a tactical advantage that they used masterfully.

A Flashpak might render a certain section unusable, but because of the design of the ship I believe it would still be more than capable of fighting.
 
This assuming the flashpack wouldn`t blow it to smitherines from the outside though.

You could always try to aim for the engines with a flash pack see what'll happen. That thing has 5 torps in one. This assuming that it has a penetration value of 9999 and not more. Torps in Wing IV have a penetration value of 2000 I believe.

Correct me if im out of line here, but two or more of those bad boys would take out pretty much anything.
edit: i also need to buy some books it seems.
 
RATM said:
This assuming the flashpack wouldn`t blow it to smitherines from the outside though.

You could always try to aim for the engines with a flash pack see what'll happen. That thing has 5 torps in one. This assuming that it has a penetration value of 9999 and not more. Torps in Wing IV have a penetration value of 2000 I believe.

Correct me if im out of line here, but two or more of those bad boys would take out pretty much anything.
edit: i also need to buy some books it seems.
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The Flashpak doesn't use explosives to destroy a target. It doesn't attempt to breach the hull or any damage like that. It works by superheating the atmosphere of the ship (watch the movies in WC4, you can see ships destroyed but there basic hull integrity is maintained) killing everyone inside. The scene with the confed transport getting smoked at the beginning and the kilrathi transport getting the same later on show this very clearly.

It has that penetration value to let you know that it's not really about armor or shield thickness as flashpaks pass through shields and are able to ignore most armor that it is so effective.
 
I stand corrected :p

So are you thinking that it wouldn`t work on the Hadaka due to it's armour. I'm figuring that unless it's made of that alloy the Vesuvius' are made of, then the flashpack should work?

I doubt it's mentionned anywhere so we'd never know.
 
I was curious because of the Hakagas layers of armor. IIRC there were 3 layers that ran through the ship at different depths. That's what made the AM mines even more devastating when the marines detonated them, the armor contained and focused the blasts causing more damage.

The hakagas just seemed like very compartmentalized ships and just thought I'd put the question out there to see what others thought...
 
The compartment like interior of the Hakaga would mean that you'd have to put a flashpak in each of the hangars to do real harm. Also, are the bridge/engineering/cabin areas armored in the same manner?
 
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