Capships should never be destroyed...

[Chip]

RE: To Earthworm's message below

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In the series, Blair & Paz had done ground combat.
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How often? Once or twice. And they're mission wasn't to actually fight, the guns they carried were so they'd have something to hold on to while the cats rip them to shreads, or at least that was the case with Blair. Paz being an unusuall case, has been a marine, so he had experience and the training every marine gets.

CB: Oh and let's not forget about Blair and Marshall fighting the Warrior King and Kilrathi in hand to hand combats.

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I do think that Marine Infantry troops should be educated in ship/fighters or at least given some training,
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You'd have to have people that are actually quite smart. They'd have to be experts on hand to hand combat, as well as know how to use different kinds of weapons, and on top of that, know how to fly and everything that's associated with it.... Even if they did go through some sort of accelerated combat training, it would take few more years.

CB: I don't know. I mean, Cadet Paz was probably like 18, maybe 16 when he joined the Marines. I'm guessing that the Cadets are like each 20 on the Tiger's Claw. Then Paz spent maybe 1 or 2 years in ground combat. We'll estimate that Paz was like 18 maybe 19 when he became a fighter pilot. So that's about 2 to 3 years.


Fighter pilots do go through hand to hand combat training, but it would take even more time to get them to be experts on weapons. Especially at the time of the Kilrathi war, Confed could not afford to have pilots or marines take any more time in training.

CB: Although Blair & Marshall do have their fisticuffs with Kilrathi, it's unlikely they'd have a good chance of winning hand to hand combats. It would've been better to have given them fletchette guns and/or laser pistols like the one Mya had used on Oasis. Also, while in transit, Confed could've had their pilots/marines given additional training.

Confed didn't need to build more ships or get more personel... They already had a navy much larger than the Kilrathi. All they had to do was reinforce their borders, not allowing the Kilrathi to set up listening post inside Confed space, as well as not brodcasting information about their military efforts that could be usefull to the Kilrathi, in the clear without any codes...

CB: Confed needed more ships. That's why they decided to "capture the Ralari". That's also why in Action Stations, Skip was worried that the Kilrathi would jump past McAuliffe to go straight to Earth while the much of the Confed fleet was at McAuliffe. That's why he only initially ordered Dayan's fleet to intercept the Kilrathi advance battlegroup.

capturing the bridge isn't enough to capture a ship. And Blair and Paz didn't actually give the Kilrathi enough time to get them, since they jumped ship as soon as possible.

CB: The bridge was where the ship's helm was. When Blair captured the helm, he basically captured the ship. He decided where it would go, when it would go, how it would go. Blair & Paz only jumped ship because the ship was going to crash into the Dolos Pyramid of Sivar .

 

[Earthworm]

Originally posted by Chip
Oh and let's not forget about Blair and Marshall fighting the Warrior King and Kilrathi in hand to hand combats.

I already said that the pilots are trained in hand to hand combat... hardly the makings of a marine though...

I don't know. I mean, Cadet Paz was probably like 18, maybe 16 when he joined the Marines.

Maybe when he started training, but they there would pass few years before he learned everything there is to know.

I'm guessing that the Cadets are like each 20 on the Tiger's Claw.

Than you're guessing wrong. Blair and Maniac are around 23/24...

Then Paz spent maybe 1 or 2 years in ground combat. We'll estimate that Paz was like 18 maybe 19 when he became a fighter pilot.

We don't estimate anything, because Paz wouldn't be 18/19. He didn't just jump from the wounds he got on Repleetah straight to fighters. First, recovery, and than starting the flight school or whatever.

Although Blair & Marshall do have their fisticuffs with Kilrathi, it's unlikely they'd have a good chance of winning hand to hand combats.

Of course they don't... bearly any humans will be able to win with Kilrathi hand to hand... not that it matters in this disscusion...

It would've been better to have given them fletchette guns and/or laser pistols like the one Mya had used on Oasis.

Oasis was suposed to be a peacefull place

Also, while in transit, Confed could've had their pilots/marines given additional training.

Yeah, they'd learn a lot...

Confed needed more ships. That's why they decided to "capture the Ralari".

They needed the Ralar for information it carried, once they captured it and got the info, the only reason why they wanted you to save it were the Confed marines onboard. Second, that was 20 years after the war began... So it doesn't matter if they needed capships at the WC1 time.

That's also why in Action Stations, Skip was worried that the Kilrathi would jump past McAuliffe to go straight to Earth while the much of the Confed fleet was at McAuliffe. That's why he only initially ordered Dayan's fleet to intercept the Kilrathi advance battlegroup.

Pay attentiont when you're reading Chip. 70% of Confeds fleet was destroyed at McAuliffe. If Confed didn't loose the war after loosing so many ships, that means that the Kilrathi had far less ships.

Banbridge wasn't worried about the cats going straight to Earth or somewhere else because of lack of ships, but because those ships were docked at McAuliffe, and under Plan Orange 5, they were suposed to stay there instead of being spread out in Confed space.

The bridge was where the ship's helm was. When Blair captured the helm, he basically captured the ship.

Bull... First, ships as large as a dreadnought have more than one bridge, second, so what if he had the helm? There's always enginering where they can completly shut down the engines and any power the ship has. Besides, if he didn't imedietly get of the bridge Kilrathi would strom through it and take it back. They didn't capture didly...

He decided where it would go, when it would go, how it would go. Blair & Paz only jumped ship because the ship was going to crash into the Dolos Pyramid of Sivar .

You should also pay attention when watching TV... They jumped ship because it was under heavy attack by Confed forcess, and while they were able to direct the ship at the Kilrathi downside, they bearly managed to do it because that ship was already heavily damaged and going down by itself.

 

[Quarto]

First of all, Earthworm, stop responding to him... I beg of thee!

Second, Blair and Paz did indeed get to the helm of Prince Thrakhath's flagship. The fact remains, however, that the ship was a burning wreck about to crash. When the entire crew abandons a sinking ship, does that mean that the rats have captured it?

Finally, there are probably some Marines why fly (at least we can assume there are) fighters. This is not at all relevant, though - they're not really Marines then, but rather pilots who are a part of the Marine Corps. The Marine pilots of Henderson Field (Guadalcanal, WWII) were not just soldiers who decided to do some combat flying in their spare time.

 

[Chip]

RE: To Earthworm's message

I already said that the pilots are trained in hand to hand combat... hardly the makings of a marine though...

CB: Ok, what do you define as a "Marine"?




Than you're guessing wrong. Blair and Maniac are around 23/24...

CB: Are you sure? They looked real young as compared to what they looked like on WC1


We don't estimate anything, because Paz wouldn't be 18/19. He didn't just jump from the wounds he got on Repleetah straight to fighters. First, recovery, and than starting the flight school or whatever.

CB: I estimate the recovery was probably like 6 months. Then there's the minimum of 500 hours of flight time training (Action Stations p. 257). Averaging about 5 hours a day for 7 days a week, that's about 70 days.



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It would've been better to have given them fletchette guns and/or laser pistols like the one Mya had used on Oasis.
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Oasis was suposed to be a peacefull place

CB: And Mya, with her pistol, had to make certain it would be peaceful

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Also, while in transit, Confed could've had their pilots/marines given additional training.
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Yeah, they'd learn a lot...

CB: They'd learn a lot more than they would just sitting around doing nothing.

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Confed needed more ships. That's why they decided to "capture the Ralari".
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They needed the Ralar for information it carried, once they captured it and got the info, the only reason why they wanted you to save it were the Confed marines onboard. Second, that was 20 years after the war began... So it doesn't matter if they needed capships at the WC1 time.

CB: No, after you save the Ralari, Col. Halycon says something to the effect of "You've just given us one more ship to use against the Cats" That implies they wanted it saved.

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That's also why in Action Stations, Skip was worried that the Kilrathi would jump past McAuliffe to go straight to Earth while the much of the Confed fleet was at McAuliffe. That's why he only initially ordered Dayan's fleet to intercept the Kilrathi advance battlegroup.
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Pay attentiont when you're reading Chip. 70% of Confeds fleet was destroyed at McAuliffe. If Confed didn't loose the war after loosing so many ships, that means that the Kilrathi had far less ships.

Banbridge wasn't worried about the cats going straight to Earth or somewhere else because of lack of ships, but because those ships were docked at McAuliffe, and under Plan Orange 5, they were suposed to stay there instead of being spread out in Confed space.

CB: Yeah, that too

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The bridge was where the ship's helm was. When Blair captured the helm, he basically captured the ship.
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Bull... First, ships as large as a dreadnought have more than one bridge, second, so what if he had the helm? There's always enginering where they can completly shut down the engines and any power the ship has. Besides, if he didn't imedietly get of the bridge Kilrathi would strom through it and take it back. They didn't capture didly...

CB: How do we know there were multiple bridges? If there were, the Kilrathi on them should've saved the Flagship. Maybe the Kilrathi thought that one bridge would be sufficient and additional bridges would be a waste.

You should also pay attention when watching TV... They jumped ship because it was under heavy attack by Confed forcess, and while they were able to direct the ship at the Kilrathi downside, they bearly managed to do it because that ship was already heavily damaged and going down by itself.

CB: Paz initially wanted to jump ship, but Blair didn't. Blair had the situation under control. It appears as though Maniac's attack on the Flagship had knocked out the communications beacon because Blair could've told them to break off the attack, or maybe Blair didn't want to broadcast himself in control of the Flagship for fear that Thrak would want it to be recaptured.

 

[Earthworm]

Originally posted by Chip
Ok, what do you define as a "Marine"?

Someone who's an expert at the job, including hand to hand and using the multitude of weapons...

Are you sure? They looked real young as compared to what they looked like on WC1

No, I'm not sure, that's why I use that fact in an argument... because I'm not sure...

I estimate the recovery was probably like 6 months. Then there's the minimum of 500 hours of flight time training (Action Stations p. 257).

Learn to read... AS says that the fleet requires at least 500 hours of flight time on the Wildcat fighter before you can actually fly it in combat and what not. That's NOT the whole training he'll need to get if he hopes to fly...

And Mya, with her pistol, had to make certain it would be peaceful

That makes absolutely no sense....

They'd learn a lot more than they would just sitting around doing nothing.

Or... how about instead of pilots training to be marines, they'd jump into simulators and practice being pilots, so they could be even better?

No, after you save the Ralari, Col. Halycon says something to the effect of "You've just given us one more ship to use against the Cats" That implies they wanted it saved.

I doubt it...

Yeah, that too

No, not *that too*, that was the only reason. Confed had enough ships...

How do we know there were multiple bridges?

Because we are many times told in the novels that large capships have multiple bridges...

If there were, the Kilrathi on them should've saved the Flagship. Maybe the Kilrathi thought that one bridge would be sufficient and additional bridges would be a waste.

What? That's like saying that a single launch bay will be sufficient on a heavy carrier.....

Paz initially wanted to jump ship, but Blair didn't. Blair had the situation under control.

Yeah, that's a good one. The ship was going down, and Blair had it under control.... He didn't want to get off imedietly because he wanted to direct that ship at the Kilrathi on the planet, and he just bearly made it.

It appears as though Maniac's attack on the Flagship had knocked out the communications beacon because Blair could've told them to break off the attack,

No, that attack had already succeded... the flagship has suffered extensive damage, and there was nothing Blair could do to save it...

or maybe Blair didn't want to broadcast himself in control of the Flagship

Are you freaking obsesed with capturing capships? Blair didn't capture anything, he didn't want to capture anything, he didn't even think for a second about capturing anything....

 

[Quarto]

I doubt it...

Actually, he's partially right about that, EW. They did want to use the Ralari in combat. But at the same time, they probably didn't capture with the intention of using it in combat, but simply because they had a clear opportunity and any captured ship was always extra information; presumably, the data banks would be critical at a time when new capships like the Fralthi were coming online. Once they had the capship, they didn't want to just waste it though, so they used it as a fast Marine transport, and then for orbital bombardment.

Chip, it is worth noting, that when you lose the Ralari, Halcyon is much more pissed about the two companies of Marines that had been onboard than about the ship itself.

 

[Earthworm]

Very well than... they still didn't want it because of lack of ships like Chip sugests though.

 

[Terrorizer]

One quick question:

"What? That's like saying that a single launch bay will be sufficient on a heavy carrier....."

Does this mean that the concordia class carriers and the vesuvius had two flight bays as told in the wc4 novel? In the games the large bays could probably launch two fighters at a time. In action stations the concordia, nameship of the class, had only one. Also the Tigers Claw only had one as well, but it was also quite large.


[Edited by Terrorizer on 12-29-2000 at 16:33]

 

[Earthworm]

Originally posted by Terrorizer
Does this mean that the concordia class carriers and the vesuvius had two flight bays as told in the wc4 novel? In the games the large bays could probably launch two fighters at a time.

Yeah, the game engine probably could not display them or something. I don't know, but they do have two launch tubes.

In action stations the concordia, nameship of the class, had only one. Also the Tigers Claw only had one as well, but it was also quite large.

Could you point out the page in AS? I don't feel like looking for it. Anyhow, the Claw DOES have more than one. There are two launch tubes in the *arms*, while there's a flight bay in the center of the ship, where you land

 

[Terrorizer]

[/QUOTE]Could you point out the page in AS? I don't feel like looking for it. Anyhow, the Claw DOES have more than one. There are two launch tubes in the *arms*, while there's a flight bay in the center of the ship, where you land [/B][/QUOTE]

Cool! Where did you find this out? The interior hangar of tigers claw was kind of hard to figure out. I always thought it was that one big hole for 10 years! I should have noticed that the lining of the launch bay was different than the landing bay, I just thought it was inconsistensies. This means that the Tigers Claw has a more efficient system than the Confederation class dreadnaughts!

The original concordia only had one landing and launch port as far as the book says. It serves both purposes, like the ones on the wc2 Concordia and Tarawa. On pg 251 of action stations it describes the Lazarus landing. The flight bays in the books have always been a mystery to me. I'd like to hear LOAF's take on this, he has an answer to everything.

 

[Terrorizer]

Actually, I think William Forstchen had the Lexington from the wc4 GAME in mind for the original Concordia. On pg 284, it describes Tolwyn landing in the "landing bay" this time. It hints that this is in the back of the ship, because it is talking about battles astern of the concordia.

It's strange that he would use this description on the Concordia class carriers for Action Stations but not the wc4 novel. When he wrote the wc4 novel I believe he only had the script. He probably didn't know about the ship designs. We should take his descriptions with a grain of salt.

[Edited by Terrorizer on 12-29-2000 at 19:26]

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The TCS Concordia which appears in Action Stations is the name-ship of the Concordia class of fleet carriers which appears in Wing Commander IV. Thus the Lexington (CV-44) and the Princeton (CV-48) are the same class as the Concordia hich appears in Actin Stations. The Concordia class carriers have one large bay, which has *two* catapults -- and then two seprate hangar bays on each sides... these are what the WCIV novel refers to when talking about seprate areas for the Black Lance experiments.

The Tiger's Claw has more than wo lanuch tubes -- it has at least *twelve* (six in each 'wing'). These are where you launch in Wing Commander 1... note that when you take off the bay is entirely enclosed until space, compared to the forward landing area which opens up like a 'real' carrier. Also note the 'Tubes 6-9' sign durring the 'running' scenes in WC1, and the simple fact that this is where fighters launch on the Wing Commander Academy animated series. Note that Bengals can also launch fighters via an external elevator, which appears in the SNES version of The Secret Missions, or via the main 'open' launch bay, like in the movie. Fighters are recovered both through the 'main' bay (in Wing Commander 1) or through smaller Prophecy esque landing areas on the side of the carrier (in Wing Commander Academy).

Re: the Ralari... yes, it is used as part of the seige force -- the idea that it was a 'fast Marine transport' is rather odd, given how small a company is, and how a Ralari compares speed-wise to a Drayman.

We *know* that pilots are trained in hand to hand combat -- it's specifically stated in the first two episodes of Wing Commander Academy. They also go to boot camp, but they are certainly *not* trained in the same manner as a combat Marine.

Note that the SF *is* the WC equivalent of Marine pilots -- but this does not mean that the fighter pilots are acapable of becoming marines a la SAAB. They're just fighter pilots. Also, remember that (WCP Guide) individuals who would make good Marines are sent to the Marines, whereas Marines who would make good pilots are sent to the Space Force.

Flight School is a ~6 month program which is seprate from the Academy. In 'real life' students graduate the Academy or an ROTC program and are then sent to flight school. One can (as Tolwyn did in Action Stations) elect to take basic flight training during the summer, which will improve their chances of getting a flight school slot.

Now, regarding Paz -- he was a Marine *officer*, so me must have either attended the Naval Academy or done NROTC Marine Option during college... either way, he would have been 21 before he was shipped off to Repleetah. Clearly his recovery time was negligable, as he recovered from his later seizure in just a few days -- still, he would have had to attend basic flight training and then advanced flight school (what we saw in the first epsiode of WCA) before he could be assigned to the Tiger's Claw -- this would have taken at least six months. Further, since WCA takes place right before and during WC1, the ages of Blair and Maniac are *the same*.

Nobody captured the Agahn Ras Siver -- it was doomed when Blair and Paz got to the bridge, they just gave it a new course before abandoning ship.

Re: Oasis... the pilots were *not* supposed to have weapons, because it was neutral territory. That's why they were surprised when they found out Maya had brought her pistol against orders.

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
The Tiger's Claw has more than wo lanuch tubes -- it has at least *twelve* (six in each 'wing') [...] Fighters are recovered both through the 'main' bay (in Wing Commander 1) or through smaller Prophecy esque landing areas on the side of the carrier (in Wing Commander Academy).

Jeepers... it sounds like the 'Claw is in fact a much more efficient carrier than a certain Midway . But of course, the Midway is much bigger and better armed.
BTW, is it just me, or do those side landing areas have tractor beams for pulling fighters in? I might be completely wrong, but I recall something like this in the Mac version of SWC. I only saw the landing scene on the Mac once, and a long time ago, so if you could enlighten me on this, 'twould be appreciated.

Re: the Ralari... yes, it is used as part of the seige force -- the idea that it was a 'fast Marine transport' is rather odd, given how small a company is, and how a Ralari compares speed-wise to a Drayman.

My mistake... for some reason I thought the Ralari was faster, while they're actually identical in speed.

Nobody captured the Agahn Ras Siver -- it was doomed when Blair and Paz got to the bridge, they just gave it a new course before abandoning ship.

...Exactly.

 

[Earthworm]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
The Tiger's Claw has more than wo lanuch tubes -- it has at least *twelve* (six in each 'wing').

Holy crap, twelve? Wow, never thought that the claw was that good.

 

[Terrorizer]

Blair should have been saying "She's no Tigers Claw" when he was assigned to the victory, or even the Concoridia(I never thought I'd say that)!

Hey Loaf, do you have any secrets to tell about the wc2 Concordia? It's got to have something else we don't know about!!

[Edited by Terrorizer on 12-30-2000 at 16:02]

 

[Detaiza]

If a shipz reduced to debriz, doez it really matter how 'good' or 'bad' it iz?
In the end, it clearly wazn't good enough.

Now, imagine a borg cube without the hive mind. That would be good. Or the death ztar with zome decent defenzez. That would be good. A Pocket of gaz and debriz? doez not have the zame element of intimidation to it, doez it?

 

[Earthworm]

Originally posted by Detaiza
If a shipz reduced to debriz, doez it really matter how 'good' or 'bad' it iz?
In the end, it clearly wazn't good enough.

Apperently you don't know how the Claw was destroyed, because the Claw was definetly good enough...

And what's with all those z'? Is your keyboard messed up?

 

[TC]

Because he's trying to make a recognizable online persona, but instead he's just succeeding in creating an annoying stupid sounding persona.

TC

 

[Death's Head]

You'd expect a heavy carrier to have more tubes than a dreadnought like the Confederation, but 12 tubes doesn't make the old 'Claw better than the Midway. From the looks of it, the wing is an easier target than either of Miway's 3 forward tubes. Is there any idea how long it takes for Begal tubes to load a fighter versus Midway's? Could be that Midway can launch larger fighters at a faster rate.

 

[Wedge009]

Pah! You'd never know the 'Claw had all those tubes in the game. Why is it there was always two fighters on CAP when you went on a patrol/strike/whatever, but when you had to defend the 'Claw yourself, there was only you and your wingman?