frostytheplebe
Seventh Part of the Seal
HAHAHAHA!!! Nice!
Best/Worst Sci-Fi TV series
- Thread starter Mancubus
- Start date
HAHAHAHA!!! Nice!
AD
Finder of things, Doer of stuff
Sounds like you have more of a problem with the actors in the lead roles than the shows themselves.
DaveO
Rear Admiral
I thought I'd let this discussion go for a few days before making my comment. There are a lot of good shows already pointed out, although I feel it's unfair that some of the Star Trek spinoffs are nominated as worst. I do admit that scifi shows are not common on TV, but I think a bit of research can find candidates far worse than the Star Trek shows. IIRC Logan's Run and V the series weren't exactly stellar shows.
I wonder if Mancubus may be thinking about the 'Invisible Monster' episode from Jonny Quest. Boy was that show way ahead of its time.
I wonder if Mancubus may be thinking about the 'Invisible Monster' episode from Jonny Quest. Boy was that show way ahead of its time.
frostytheplebe
Seventh Part of the Seal
Tigerhawk
Captain
Speaking of Caprica, has anyone seen or heard anything about it yet?
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I would vote against Babylon 5. B5 doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. It was (and occasionally is) fun as heck to watch... but as soon as you take two steps away the writing is over the top, the characters are simplistic, the effects are awful, the cribbing is blatant and that constant damnable soliloquising is embarrassing.
It also ends very, very poorly. If you really believe that the secret five year plan was to follow a clear climax in the story with an extra year of uninteresting and awkward stories about sexy telepaths lounging around then you need a lesson in trusting your sources (specifically, the old axiom about the tale and not the teller).
I think that we are already starting to remember Babylon 5 as a product of its times rather than some timeless piece of master storytelling. Battlestar Galactica, too, is going down this path quite rapidly as we speak (in short, the thing you thought was awesome when you were 15 wasn't necessarily so).
I can't agree harder.
I'll repeat the old joke again -- Star Trek episodes are like sex; even when they're bad they're still a pretty good time. There's, what, 600-odd hours of Star Trek now... and I can sit down and enjoy 598 of those at any time (sorry, Nemesis). At the best they're incredibly intelligent stories or amazingly well-told commentaries... at worst they're just fun, and that's still pretty good.
I also support the mention of the V show. One of the grand and clear examples of a great setup being steamrollered by committees.
I would argue that one of the biggest problems people had with the Archer character was that Bakula very specifically *wasn't* playing Dr. Beckett-in-space. Frosty and I were just talking about how, in retrospect, he was pretty blatantly basing Archer's mannerisms and response on then-President Bush...
Anyway, as for the best series I think you have to give the title to the original Twilight Zone or - depending on your deep personal convictions - Outer Limits. Either offers a near-perfect mix of unparalleled-thoughtful stories and amazing (for-their-time) spectacles.
Failing that (which I really do think is the equivalent of saying '2001' in the best movie thread, even if no one else has said it in a week...) it would have to be the original Star Trek, which managed the same sort of storytelling-and-spectacle most of the time but in a unified setting (I am a huge fan of that sort of writing restriction)... and, equally important to everything that came after, continued to take itself seriously (which is why I rule out Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, a clear Star Trek predecessor that unfortunately ended with killer dolls and leprechauns...).
(I've seen lots of shows I love mentioned here, but none really approach the classics. I will give the 'best current show' award -- while I still can -- to Sarah Connor Chronicles. It's a heck of a lot smarter than a Terminator-derived TV series should be.)
It also ends very, very poorly. If you really believe that the secret five year plan was to follow a clear climax in the story with an extra year of uninteresting and awkward stories about sexy telepaths lounging around then you need a lesson in trusting your sources (specifically, the old axiom about the tale and not the teller).
I think that we are already starting to remember Babylon 5 as a product of its times rather than some timeless piece of master storytelling. Battlestar Galactica, too, is going down this path quite rapidly as we speak (in short, the thing you thought was awesome when you were 15 wasn't necessarily so).
I can't agree harder.
I'll repeat the old joke again -- Star Trek episodes are like sex; even when they're bad they're still a pretty good time. There's, what, 600-odd hours of Star Trek now... and I can sit down and enjoy 598 of those at any time (sorry, Nemesis). At the best they're incredibly intelligent stories or amazingly well-told commentaries... at worst they're just fun, and that's still pretty good.
I also support the mention of the V show. One of the grand and clear examples of a great setup being steamrollered by committees.
I would argue that one of the biggest problems people had with the Archer character was that Bakula very specifically *wasn't* playing Dr. Beckett-in-space. Frosty and I were just talking about how, in retrospect, he was pretty blatantly basing Archer's mannerisms and response on then-President Bush...
Anyway, as for the best series I think you have to give the title to the original Twilight Zone or - depending on your deep personal convictions - Outer Limits. Either offers a near-perfect mix of unparalleled-thoughtful stories and amazing (for-their-time) spectacles.
Failing that (which I really do think is the equivalent of saying '2001' in the best movie thread, even if no one else has said it in a week...) it would have to be the original Star Trek, which managed the same sort of storytelling-and-spectacle most of the time but in a unified setting (I am a huge fan of that sort of writing restriction)... and, equally important to everything that came after, continued to take itself seriously (which is why I rule out Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, a clear Star Trek predecessor that unfortunately ended with killer dolls and leprechauns...).
(I've seen lots of shows I love mentioned here, but none really approach the classics. I will give the 'best current show' award -- while I still can -- to Sarah Connor Chronicles. It's a heck of a lot smarter than a Terminator-derived TV series should be.)
LeHah
212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
LOAF is a tough act to follow but I'll throw my hat in anyway.
Best: Space: Above And Beyond
I don't think I really have to detail to this community why this show is so good. Its simply the old Vic Morrow TV series "Combat!" put in space with a really well assembled cast. It was obviously an expensive show for its time and its a show that could only exist in the 1990s before the Internet demanded "serious sci-fi drama"... which gave us the infantile crap that is...
Worst: Firefly
Now, I'm not saying the show isn't entertaining - but it suffers from problems on many different levels. Its not nearly as smart as everyone makes it out to be (frankly, as I get older, Joss Whedon material becomes more embarrassing to own), the show is an overly literal knock-off of the original selling point of Star Trek ("Wagontrain To The Stars"), the movie was pretty substandard and River Tam is by a wide margin one of the most infuriatingly awful characters I've ever seen on my TV. If someone had just shoved her off a cliff and she somehow survived, I imagine I would neither call for help nor be bothered to finish the job myself.
And as time goes on, I realize that probably my biggest problem with it: all of it is badly manipulative in the same way that Battlestar Galactica is. The on-the-nose-clever scenarios, the too-smart-not-to-be-noticed dialogue, the incredibly manipulative emotional music over the slow motion snow-falling death sequence with the monotone voice over. The whole thing cries out as a writer lacking any creative skill and just falling back on cheap punches to keep the plot conveniences flowing.
Best: Space: Above And Beyond
I don't think I really have to detail to this community why this show is so good. Its simply the old Vic Morrow TV series "Combat!" put in space with a really well assembled cast. It was obviously an expensive show for its time and its a show that could only exist in the 1990s before the Internet demanded "serious sci-fi drama"... which gave us the infantile crap that is...
Worst: Firefly
Now, I'm not saying the show isn't entertaining - but it suffers from problems on many different levels. Its not nearly as smart as everyone makes it out to be (frankly, as I get older, Joss Whedon material becomes more embarrassing to own), the show is an overly literal knock-off of the original selling point of Star Trek ("Wagontrain To The Stars"), the movie was pretty substandard and River Tam is by a wide margin one of the most infuriatingly awful characters I've ever seen on my TV. If someone had just shoved her off a cliff and she somehow survived, I imagine I would neither call for help nor be bothered to finish the job myself.
And as time goes on, I realize that probably my biggest problem with it: all of it is badly manipulative in the same way that Battlestar Galactica is. The on-the-nose-clever scenarios, the too-smart-not-to-be-noticed dialogue, the incredibly manipulative emotional music over the slow motion snow-falling death sequence with the monotone voice over. The whole thing cries out as a writer lacking any creative skill and just falling back on cheap punches to keep the plot conveniences flowing.
powell99
Aviation Junkie
Best: For me it's Star Trek. I'll take almost everything Star Trek. TOS is probably the Scifi Show I watch the most now, I figure once I get money I'll pick up TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise (Granted very slowly season by season). LOAF pretty much summed it up already so I won't go on, but Star Trek is it for me.
Worst: The New BSG is pretty much every thing I can't stand in Television wrapped neatly into a nice little package. There were a few episodes I'll admit I liked, and I did end up watching the entire series (Probably means I'm a masochist). The characters never really seemed consistent, it was like they did whatever was edgy at any particular moment opposed to what would make any kind of sense. Actually the whole series didn't seem to make much sense either for much the same reason, episodes were less about what made and kind of sense, or built a cohesive story, and more about something edgy. Remember those Afgah*cough* New Caprica episodes with suicide bombers? Seemed fairly ridiculous from any kind of story stand point, but boy was it edgy! I mean I could go on and on about everything I didn't like, and I'm almost entirely sure no one wants to read that so I'll end it here.
Worst: The New BSG is pretty much every thing I can't stand in Television wrapped neatly into a nice little package. There were a few episodes I'll admit I liked, and I did end up watching the entire series (Probably means I'm a masochist). The characters never really seemed consistent, it was like they did whatever was edgy at any particular moment opposed to what would make any kind of sense. Actually the whole series didn't seem to make much sense either for much the same reason, episodes were less about what made and kind of sense, or built a cohesive story, and more about something edgy. Remember those Afgah*cough* New Caprica episodes with suicide bombers? Seemed fairly ridiculous from any kind of story stand point, but boy was it edgy! I mean I could go on and on about everything I didn't like, and I'm almost entirely sure no one wants to read that so I'll end it here.
Dyret
Super Carrot!
What effects? Storytelling effects (is that even a term) or the CGI? I think the latter still holds up quite well today, though the season 1 might have had some slightly awkward scenes; A battle against raiders comes to mind. I don't know what the deal with the characters is; With the exception of a couple of the characters, like the blonde telepath girl, and maybe Sinclair, its characters was, and still is well developed, enjoyable, and interesting. It almost sounds as if you have some sort of personal grudge agaisnt B5.
My experience with Star Trek is pretty limited; some TNG, some Voyager, and three or four of the Original movies, but Trek always seemed to have waaay weaker characters: The captain who did everything right cause he was the captain, except when being posseded by alien gasses and whatnot, the alien that was aggressive cause that was his species, the telepath girl, the robot that wanted to be human because thats what sci-fi robots do when not bringing about the apocalypse, ect. Still, they were quite enjoyable, which puts them way above new BSG's awful, awful characters.
I think the ending is beautiful; It made me cry when I was a kid and it almost makes me cry today. The rest of season 5 wasn't any sort of great, but perfectly watchable. Also, sexy telepaths? Those kids were just annoying.
NinjaLA
Alex Von T.
the five year plan got sort of sidetracked when they were pretty sure they were gonna get canceled in season 4, and thusly wrapped up the main plot line. season 5 was never part of the original arc. It was an idea for the next series that got rolled up into the original, without any pre-planning to end all the awkward.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I don't.... hate... Babylon 5.
In fact, I *loved* the show when I was a precocious teen. I have very fond memories of staying up until 2 AM to catch new episodes in the weirdo time slots my local channel aired the later seasons in and then talking about the show in #Wing-Commander. I read the novels and the comics... I went to a Babylon 5 convention... I even had a little stick-on hand communicator.
I still have the DVDs (from that original flipper to the latest DTV cash-in). There's a signed picture of Marcus the Ranger hanging over my TV (it's inscribed "Range on, Ben!"). I still watch the show and enjoy it. I still geek out about it ocasionally, even (did you know you can get the original version of the pilot from iTunes?!).
But it's so *STUPID*. The big selling point for fifteen-year-old LOAF was that the show's culture was yammering on about how damned smart it was supposed to be. Epic story, original blah blah blah blah, so much more intellectual than *Star Trek*. I bought into all that as hard as anyone else.
And it *wasn't true*. The epic story is Lord of the Rings -- frequently without even bothering to swap out the proper nouns... the big epic speeches are pure scene-chewing melodrama (when they aren't cribbing Honest Abe, which is half the time)... the social commentary is obvious (Racism is bad! Parents *shouldn't* kill their children!)... and the epic CGI/green-screeny production values that are the future of television are pretty darned classleess compared to the contemporary model work we were all poo-pooing Star Trek for sticking with at the time.
Babylon 5 was great for 4 seasons, the 5th season was a bit of a bore really... and most of the movies were pretty poor - I would still put it in my top three though.
I think I'd go:
#1 Space: Above & Beyond - only lasted a season but loved it.
#2 Star Trek TNG - so many great episodes. The best of both worlds is quite possibly the best two episodes of a sci fi show that I can think of.
#3 Babylon 5 - shadow war and civil war storylines were great - and I always loved the relationship between Londo & G'Kar. That scene when Londo is removing G'Kar from the Council gives me goosebumps every time. Also the time travel episode where you see it from the other perspective a season or two later was really well done.
I can't think of a worst list... so I'm just gonna put Battlefield Earth here (yes, I know it's a movie) as it's pretty much the only movie where I've turned off 10minutes before the end because I felt it was making me dumber.
I think I'd go:
#1 Space: Above & Beyond - only lasted a season but loved it.
#2 Star Trek TNG - so many great episodes. The best of both worlds is quite possibly the best two episodes of a sci fi show that I can think of.
#3 Babylon 5 - shadow war and civil war storylines were great - and I always loved the relationship between Londo & G'Kar. That scene when Londo is removing G'Kar from the Council gives me goosebumps every time. Also the time travel episode where you see it from the other perspective a season or two later was really well done.
I can't think of a worst list... so I'm just gonna put Battlefield Earth here (yes, I know it's a movie) as it's pretty much the only movie where I've turned off 10minutes before the end because I felt it was making me dumber.
TigerNobleHeart
Rear Admiral
Best:
“The Prisoner”- I have other faves, but I figure that I’ll mention them at a later time when I got more of my head squared away.
The old classic is something of an oddity, not something that can easily be categorized or pigeonholed. A rebellious, headstrong spy is taken to The Village, a place where intelligence operatives are kept for whatever reasons. The many Number Two’s want to know why he resigned, and he’s more interested with trying to escape, keeping to his convictions, and generally making life difficult for The Village and the Number Twos.
It’s one of the few shows where the plot twists are truly surprising. With the mind-screws actually made me pause in shock. As many times as Number Six, our protagonist, has been surprised in such a manner, it’s amazing that he hasn’t developed a bad case of paranoia or siege mentality.
I felt the weakest episodes were the last few. The last one, especially.
Worst:
“Enterprise”- It had a good premise to start with; but the same could be said of “Voyager”. Here we have Humanity making it’s first awkward steps into the stars on their own, complete with mishaps and missteps. An untested ship with untested technologies. A little bit of cultural intrigue and underlying resentment between the Humans and the Vulcans. You’d think that this premise could not go wrong.
The problem, I felt, was the writing; which always felt “Plain Jane” and generally uninspired, feeling cribbed from previous ST episodes. It’s like their script synopsis came from a special page of Mad Libs: “The Enterprise _____ a _____ during a routine ____”
Not to mention that, for a prequel, they solve problems using the same techno-babble means like they’ve done on Voyager. (At least B5 has a simpler techo-solution, “Touch that button and pray very, very fast.”)
The Xindi arc felt awkward and forced. Same for their “Temporal Cold War”. It was only in their final season that they had the opportunity to progress somewhat.
“Voyager”- A new starship lost in the tail-end of the galaxy, two crews forced to co-operate to survive, a long journey back home.
For a starship lost without aid, Voyager’s still looks well for itself. Always look pristine and clean, despite having it’s stern kicked in previous episodes. (I heard that they actually keep track of stardates for the logs, to keep things consistent. Real shame they can’t do that for most of the scripts). Technobabble solutions (Most likely involving the deflector dish). Shuttles always exploding (and replaced by the next episode). And once-super-powerful enemies being neutered into mere annoyances, like the Borg and Species 8472.
Though there is the occasional gem that stands out. “Year of Hell”, “Macrocosm”, and “The Killing Game”, you’d hate to think that they put out, at most, one good episode in an entire season.
“SeaQuest”- “Star Trek under the Ocean”. Back in my youth, when I had spare time in abundance, I tried to give every new sci-fi show a fresh look. I tried to follow seaQuest, but got most of it during it’s second season run. Then I was able to catch the first season (And the third afterwards).
Ironically, the show itself was the one that was rudderless. Again, it was the writing, some of them were quite bad and almost embarrassingly to watch. Like the one with the mythical god, or the one involving rubber plants. Or the occasional clichéd “teen-genius gets into trouble” episode, which plays out like an after-school special (And just as painful).
You can tell that things are going bad for the show when it’s success depends on the exploits of a talking dolphin and genius hearttrob. Of course, if those two can save the ship so many times, what is the point of even having a crew?!
Though I liked the uniforms and the set designs, which felt practical and realistic (I occasionally look for UEF uniforms on eBay and think, “Shall I?”)
The second season did bring some memorable characters in the mix. Picallo, the (ex-)con. It’s always good to have someone with a record on hand, if only to spice things up. And to keep me from being bored with the over-achievers of the senior staff. And Dagwood, who I always had this funny mental image of him clutching a teddy bear (A bear in several shades of colors, of course.)
“The Prisoner”- I have other faves, but I figure that I’ll mention them at a later time when I got more of my head squared away.
The old classic is something of an oddity, not something that can easily be categorized or pigeonholed. A rebellious, headstrong spy is taken to The Village, a place where intelligence operatives are kept for whatever reasons. The many Number Two’s want to know why he resigned, and he’s more interested with trying to escape, keeping to his convictions, and generally making life difficult for The Village and the Number Twos.
It’s one of the few shows where the plot twists are truly surprising. With the mind-screws actually made me pause in shock. As many times as Number Six, our protagonist, has been surprised in such a manner, it’s amazing that he hasn’t developed a bad case of paranoia or siege mentality.
I felt the weakest episodes were the last few. The last one, especially.
Worst:
“Enterprise”- It had a good premise to start with; but the same could be said of “Voyager”. Here we have Humanity making it’s first awkward steps into the stars on their own, complete with mishaps and missteps. An untested ship with untested technologies. A little bit of cultural intrigue and underlying resentment between the Humans and the Vulcans. You’d think that this premise could not go wrong.
The problem, I felt, was the writing; which always felt “Plain Jane” and generally uninspired, feeling cribbed from previous ST episodes. It’s like their script synopsis came from a special page of Mad Libs: “The Enterprise _____ a _____ during a routine ____”
Not to mention that, for a prequel, they solve problems using the same techno-babble means like they’ve done on Voyager. (At least B5 has a simpler techo-solution, “Touch that button and pray very, very fast.”)
The Xindi arc felt awkward and forced. Same for their “Temporal Cold War”. It was only in their final season that they had the opportunity to progress somewhat.
“Voyager”- A new starship lost in the tail-end of the galaxy, two crews forced to co-operate to survive, a long journey back home.
For a starship lost without aid, Voyager’s still looks well for itself. Always look pristine and clean, despite having it’s stern kicked in previous episodes. (I heard that they actually keep track of stardates for the logs, to keep things consistent. Real shame they can’t do that for most of the scripts). Technobabble solutions (Most likely involving the deflector dish). Shuttles always exploding (and replaced by the next episode). And once-super-powerful enemies being neutered into mere annoyances, like the Borg and Species 8472.
Though there is the occasional gem that stands out. “Year of Hell”, “Macrocosm”, and “The Killing Game”, you’d hate to think that they put out, at most, one good episode in an entire season.
“SeaQuest”- “Star Trek under the Ocean”. Back in my youth, when I had spare time in abundance, I tried to give every new sci-fi show a fresh look. I tried to follow seaQuest, but got most of it during it’s second season run. Then I was able to catch the first season (And the third afterwards).
Ironically, the show itself was the one that was rudderless. Again, it was the writing, some of them were quite bad and almost embarrassingly to watch. Like the one with the mythical god, or the one involving rubber plants. Or the occasional clichéd “teen-genius gets into trouble” episode, which plays out like an after-school special (And just as painful).
You can tell that things are going bad for the show when it’s success depends on the exploits of a talking dolphin and genius hearttrob. Of course, if those two can save the ship so many times, what is the point of even having a crew?!
Though I liked the uniforms and the set designs, which felt practical and realistic (I occasionally look for UEF uniforms on eBay and think, “Shall I?”)
The second season did bring some memorable characters in the mix. Picallo, the (ex-)con. It’s always good to have someone with a record on hand, if only to spice things up. And to keep me from being bored with the over-achievers of the senior staff. And Dagwood, who I always had this funny mental image of him clutching a teddy bear (A bear in several shades of colors, of course.)
Tigerhawk
Captain
I think when you mention the Borg and 8472 in the same sentence, you have to put in the two-part "Scorpion". I mean, just whose jaw wasn't at least somewhat open when three Borg cubes get blasted into oblivion in the first 15 seconds of that episode?