Originally posted by Delance
All right, so for some people, there will be no judgment. So all christians, 100% of them, are immune to judgment? But the question remains. Is there are judgment? Will non-Christians be judged, or will they go straight to hell? If non-Christians are to be judged, have they any chance to go to be saved and go to heaven?
...If Christians and non-Christians alike don't need to be judged, who will be judged? What would such judgment be about?
...So far I didn't hear an answer on this.
...Seriously? What if the victim doesn't even want to talk to the sinner? What if the victim has a restraining order, or something?
...I'm not talking about someone bad who converts before he dies, but a Christians that becomes corrupted.
Also, if the non-Christians are facing a judgment, this means they can also be saved, right? A judgment must have at least 2 results (heaven or hell), or maybe a third (purgatory) depending on what you believe in. But that's not the issue. If non-Christians were going automatically to hell, as some defend, there would be no point in having a judgment.
Good answer, Wedge!...
Now to add my own:
(1) There WILL most definitely be judgement for ALL, whether Christian or not. The key is, those who've placed their trust in Christ will experience the awesomely humbling sight of Jesus Himself coming up to God the Father when that person's name is called, and (essentially) saying "Father, I paid the price for this one; s/he's mine". Then God will basically say. "OK. Next?..." Pretty awesome!... As to non-Christians, my Mom always used to say "you always have to leave room for the mercy of God", and once I became a Christian, I found out how right she is. It may well be that God will have mercy on some nonbelievers, but the basic guideline is what has been presented here time & again: Only those who know Him can be assured of their place in heaven. All others (except for the occasional case here & there where God may decide to show such mercy) will be condemned.
(2) Ghost answered that point when he said that after you seek forgiveness 3 times, if they refuse to forgive you, then God will take care of it and do the forgiving Himself.
(3) The general (broad) view is that no Christian can become so corrupted as to lose their salvation. Essentially the idea is, if you thought you were saved and then go on to become a Hitler or something, you were never really saved in the first place. This is where the "by their fruits you shall know them" idea comes in. This is why Paul urges believers to examine themselves to be sure they are of the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5). Also it's key to remember here that there is always hope for any one, up to the very moment of death - like the thief on the cross next to Christ.
(4) As to there being "no point in having a judgment", I guess it comes down to semantics, but there most definitely IS a point to having a judgment. The point is this: God's glory will be fully revealed for all to see, "both in heaven and on the earth and under the earth". Part of this glory is His absolute right to pardon and condemn. When a Christian is pardoned thru their faith in Christ, all flesh will gasp in awe and amazement and praise to the God who alone loved men enough to die for them and pardon their sins who believe in His Son. When a non-believer is sent eternally out of God's presence, all will shudder in horror and trembling that this same God has now revealed His righteous wrath against all who refused to believe.
Originally posted by LeHah
Something thats always confused me was that Jesus said something like "All who follow me shall have a place in my father's kingdom".
So does that mean all those countless people before him are in some purgatory/limbo/black cabin?
No, not at all. The problem with that question is, it gets really deep into scriptural study to be able to answer it fully, so it doesn't lend itself to being answered fully in a forum like this. That said, I'll nonetheless attempt to "bottom line" it here. Here goes:
1) Those "B.C." folks you mentioned (before Christ) are in the same places that all of us will go when we check out of Hotel Earth: Either Heaven or Hell (Yeah, I know the RCC holds that there's a "purgatory", but I've never seen that position defended Scripturally, so there's no point in bothering to include that in this discussion).
2) The basis for God's decision as to which BCers go to heaven and which go to hell are essentially the same as those of us after Christ, only minus the 'Jesus element'. BCers couldn't believe in a crucified Savior who hadn't come yet (Jesus, the Son of God) , but they certainly could believe in God the Father (who sent Jesus later on). Thus, any individuals who worshipped and revered the God of Israel as he ordained for Himself to be worshipped (details found all throughout the OT), and who were truly sorry and repentant for their sins before Him, would likely be "saved", and thus enter God's presence when they died. Evidence of this is found in the Transfiguration on the Mount (Matt 17:1-6), when Moses and Elijah (both long-dead by then) appeared and spoke with Jesus. Obviously, this would not have happeneed if either of these guys went to hell after death, so we know of at least two human residents of heaven by name. Likewise, it is generally accepted that most all of the OT patriarchs/prophets are probably there, from Noah to Jacob to Micah, and a few kings as well (David, Josiah, Hezekaiah).
3) It boils down to this (and I've made this point earlier in this thread, and also some other threads I've chimed in on in the past): God has
progressively revealed Himself to mankind, bit by bit over the millenia, until, "in the fullness of time" (Galatians 4:4-5), He sent His Son to die on a cruel Roman cross for the sins of the world. BC folks would essentially be judged based on how well they fulfilled their duty to God
based on whatever degree of knowledge of God had been revealed up to that point in time. Since Christ is "the fullness of God revealed", after the resurrection there was nothing more for God to reveal of Himself, until we get to meet him in heaven, where "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" (1 Corinthians 2:9).
Hope that helps.
