DeltaKiller
Spaceman
My appologies to the Moderators and everyone else.
Wing Commander reality
- Thread starter DeltaKiller
- Start date
No, Hitler was appointed Chancelor by Hindenburg. If you take a look at the political background in that time you'll see there was total chaos in Germany. Not one of the Chancelors elected made it for more than 600 days.
What makes me mad every time I read about that period of time is that the political leaders thought they could control Hitler by limiting his powers and keeping the the NSDAP in the minority. They didn't think once that he would overthrow the republic and change it into a dictatorship although he already tried it once before in 1923.
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No one will hear your cry of death in the void of space
What makes me mad every time I read about that period of time is that the political leaders thought they could control Hitler by limiting his powers and keeping the the NSDAP in the minority. They didn't think once that he would overthrow the republic and change it into a dictatorship although he already tried it once before in 1923.
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No one will hear your cry of death in the void of space
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Mad Hatter
Spaceman
Penguin: I never said anything about tyranny.
What I mean, and please stop being so picky about my choise of words, is that during elections, politicians promise a zillion and one things, they get elected because of these promises, and once they`re in office, they do whatever the hell they want (within legal limits(actually not always)). We`re having the same thing with both current and previous prime ministers, who promised the world to the voters and then forgot who elected them to office.
I`m usually a reasonable person, and I don`t expect everyone to fulfill all their promises, but when the basic agenda is altered immediately after the elections, that`s what makes me furious. These people may not be dictators or despots, but they sure act that way.
What I mean, and please stop being so picky about my choise of words, is that during elections, politicians promise a zillion and one things, they get elected because of these promises, and once they`re in office, they do whatever the hell they want (within legal limits(actually not always)). We`re having the same thing with both current and previous prime ministers, who promised the world to the voters and then forgot who elected them to office.
I`m usually a reasonable person, and I don`t expect everyone to fulfill all their promises, but when the basic agenda is altered immediately after the elections, that`s what makes me furious. These people may not be dictators or despots, but they sure act that way.
Mad Hatter
Spaceman
I`ll grant him that, but I think there was mostly luck involved than anything else. If we had had even one casaulty during the evacuation, people would have called it a disaster.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Ah, and now you hit the very centre of this tricky business. People are fickle - just look at the way they turn against him now (no offence
), when support is most critical. It is difficult to create any proper peace agreement when your people tell you that they want peace, but any concessions (which are the only way to get peace) will result in your political death.
It's ironic, isn't it? He can't do anything because his government is against him, and his government is against him because he's not getting anything done.
It's ironic, isn't it? He can't do anything because his government is against him, and his government is against him because he's not getting anything done.
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Mad Hatter
Spaceman
I would like to mention that I am actually a left winger and that I voted for him. The thing is, that he sometimes makes decisions that seem to indicate he`s living in some kind of bubble. He doesn`t trust his party, and he screws them over all the time. He`s so sure of himself that he doesn`t stop to listen to anyone. Up until a month ago he was courting the religious party giving them anything they asked for, just to get screwed by them over and over again. Now he`s gone from "religious fanatic" to "atheist fanatic" promising a civilian revolution, only to take his words back 2 days later because of too much criticism. You just can`t run a government like that. (And that, btw, is what give the impression of a dictator)
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Yes, he is. I guess it's because in the army, you don't need to persuade the grunts that your orders are a good idea
.
All in all, I'd have to agree that he's not really the right person to rule a country with a political system like Israel (but I'm not saying that political system is good) - he's got great ideas, but he's running around in circles trying to get support for them.
The irony is that if he acted even more like a soldier - for example, if he was (even) more single-minded (especially in that secular revolution thing), he would be able to get things done.
All in all, I'd have to agree that he's not really the right person to rule a country with a political system like Israel (but I'm not saying that political system is good) - he's got great ideas, but he's running around in circles trying to get support for them.
The irony is that if he acted even more like a soldier - for example, if he was (even) more single-minded (especially in that secular revolution thing), he would be able to get things done.
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From the news it looked a lot like he (He is the Israeli Prime Minister, right?) was trying to do a good job but the really religeous people didn't want to give anything up so he couldn't get a deal.
Then again I don't really know that much of what's going on since I just see it on the news once in a while.
[This message has been edited by Cricket (edited September 13, 2000).]
Then again I don't really know that much of what's going on since I just see it on the news once in a while.
[This message has been edited by Cricket (edited September 13, 2000).]
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Well, that's just part of it. It's not just the religious extremists, it's pretty much all the extremists (and some moderates, too). Thing is, Arafat has the same problem - so neither of them are in any position to make concessions, and both keep complaining about each other's unwillingness to make concessions. To a sideline observer like me, the situation seems at times truly absurd.
Mad Hatter
Spaceman
It`s not that an absurd situation Quarto. Even the concessions both sides agree to are only on paper. neither side has enough support to sign a treaty even with their own concessions. That`s the absurd. That`s why both sides are in a stalemate. Even if one side agreed to the other side`s demands, no one can assure that there`d be support on either side.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Well, call me crazy, but I think a very large segment of the population on both sides would agree to anything reducing the likelihood of getting blown up while waiting at a bus stop
. Of course, the lawmakers wouldn't agree - but didn't the Knesset pass a law that makes it necessary for any peace treaty to be approved by a national referendum? They kinda outwitted themselves there, because no lawmaker would be stupid enough to vote for something once the general population has approved it.
And as for Arafat's side, the Palestinians are about as tired of the impasse as you guys are. Arafat's promised a state by the end of the year, and if he doesn't deliver, his career is over. So here too, it's a matter of getting the right concessions, showing them to the general populace, and then ramming them down the lawmakers' throats.
To conclude, the support is there. If it wasn't, then you and Hero would probably be dodging scores of bullets in Galilee (that's right - not South Lebanon but North Israel) right now, mon ami. The success of that withdrawal - and indeed, the fact that Barak was elected in the first place - is a clear sign of what both sides want.
And as for Arafat's side, the Palestinians are about as tired of the impasse as you guys are. Arafat's promised a state by the end of the year, and if he doesn't deliver, his career is over. So here too, it's a matter of getting the right concessions, showing them to the general populace, and then ramming them down the lawmakers' throats.
To conclude, the support is there. If it wasn't, then you and Hero would probably be dodging scores of bullets in Galilee (that's right - not South Lebanon but North Israel) right now, mon ami. The success of that withdrawal - and indeed, the fact that Barak was elected in the first place - is a clear sign of what both sides want.
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Mad Hatter
Spaceman
Oh, you`d be surprised at how gung-ho people in my country can get, and the really crazy thing, is that most of these people are not exactly front line soldiers, and this is an understatement (or is it overstatement. Never mind).
Arafat is afraid that if he does agree to our "generous" terms, he`ll end up like Sadat (sp?), Egypt`s president before Mubarak (again sp?), who as you probably know was assassinated by extremists, and this was after he got all of the Sinai desert! Now, what do you suppose would happen if Arafat brought back an agreement like the one we proposed?
I`m not that keen on giving in to their demands on Jerusalem, but I`m willing to if this means ending this conflict once and for all. I believe that most of the people in my country would be willing too, but a lot of them have a feeling that this will not be the end of it, and that the Palestinians will demand more and more territories until, some believe, they push us out to the sea.
Arafat is afraid that if he does agree to our "generous" terms, he`ll end up like Sadat (sp?), Egypt`s president before Mubarak (again sp?), who as you probably know was assassinated by extremists, and this was after he got all of the Sinai desert! Now, what do you suppose would happen if Arafat brought back an agreement like the one we proposed?
I`m not that keen on giving in to their demands on Jerusalem, but I`m willing to if this means ending this conflict once and for all. I believe that most of the people in my country would be willing too, but a lot of them have a feeling that this will not be the end of it, and that the Palestinians will demand more and more territories until, some believe, they push us out to the sea.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Hmmmm... you know, I can't help but wonder if Barak isn't by any chance worried about the same thing - after all, Sadat wasn't the only politician assassinated in the peace process (BTW, peace with Israel was just one of a million causes of Sadat's assassination). But of course, if Arafat was to agree to your "generous" terms, he would definitely go down.
Personally, I think that the significance of Jerusalem is clouding the negotiators' brains. There are so many solutions, if only somebody would care to think for a moment. One of my favourites is to give sovereignty to God
.
In a way, those people who are afraid the Palestinians might demand more territories are right - both Israeli and Palestinian populations are growing (the growth of the Israeli population has already been problematic in the issue of land), so every year that goes by without a settlement just leaves Arafat with a bigger headache.
BTW, it's always the people who have never been to war that yell the loudest. People who have experienced the army are usually more peaceful, since they know what it's like. Just look at your last two prime ministers.
Personally, I think that the significance of Jerusalem is clouding the negotiators' brains. There are so many solutions, if only somebody would care to think for a moment. One of my favourites is to give sovereignty to God
In a way, those people who are afraid the Palestinians might demand more territories are right - both Israeli and Palestinian populations are growing (the growth of the Israeli population has already been problematic in the issue of land), so every year that goes by without a settlement just leaves Arafat with a bigger headache.
BTW, it's always the people who have never been to war that yell the loudest. People who have experienced the army are usually more peaceful, since they know what it's like. Just look at your last two prime ministers.
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Mad Hatter
Spaceman
You amaze me everytime, Quarto, in how well you understand the situation in my country, but I guess I should expect it.
That "God sovreignty" idea is one of the better ideas I`ve heared lately if not one of the strangest. However, it would pose a problem to another segment of the population - the ones who don`t believe in any form of god - the atheists.
I wonder, would that mean I don`t have to answer to anybody while I`m visiting Jerusalem?
And anyway, what would sovreignty of god really mean? He obviously can`t run everything by himself, can he? I wonder how bureaucracy would be under god`s rulling?
That "God sovreignty" idea is one of the better ideas I`ve heared lately if not one of the strangest. However, it would pose a problem to another segment of the population - the ones who don`t believe in any form of god - the atheists.
I wonder, would that mean I don`t have to answer to anybody while I`m visiting Jerusalem?
And anyway, what would sovreignty of god really mean? He obviously can`t run everything by himself, can he? I wonder how bureaucracy would be under god`s rulling?
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Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Why, thank you
. I try to keep track of it, being an international relations student and all
.
The "God sovereignty" idea is just a face-saving measure. In a nutshell, it means that neither you nor the Palestinians get to fly their flag over the city. What it doesn't consider though, is that somebody still has to manage the city. Your mayor of Jerusalem said he's willing to accept this idea, provided it means you guys keep managing Jerusalem. I think it's safe to assume that the Palestinians will find this hard to swallow, though (of course, the idea of cooperation never seems to occur to either side
).
At any rate, there would probably have to be a mayor of some sort (he doesn't have to take orders directly from God - unless he really wants to
- because mayors don't usually take orders directly from their heads of state). Under the mayor, there would be a normal bureaucracy - provided that the above-mentioned problem of "which side is in charge" is taken care of.
Atheists... oh no, surely you're not worried that the atheists also have holy places in Jerusalem?
Anyway, it would make no difference for atheists. An atheist may not believe in God, but he'd better believe in his Earthly servants, lest they kick his ass
.
The "God sovereignty" idea is just a face-saving measure. In a nutshell, it means that neither you nor the Palestinians get to fly their flag over the city. What it doesn't consider though, is that somebody still has to manage the city. Your mayor of Jerusalem said he's willing to accept this idea, provided it means you guys keep managing Jerusalem. I think it's safe to assume that the Palestinians will find this hard to swallow, though (of course, the idea of cooperation never seems to occur to either side
At any rate, there would probably have to be a mayor of some sort (he doesn't have to take orders directly from God - unless he really wants to
Atheists... oh no, surely you're not worried that the atheists also have holy places in Jerusalem?
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As an atheist myself, I feel proud to say MY RELIGION IS A NON-PROPHET ORGANISATION!!
And I don't fear those religious enough to try and kick my butt, I remind myself that one day I may have an Arrow, and then they'll all be screwed.
That, and the fact that I can hold my own in a good religious debate.
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Maestro: "Lighten up Spyder! We're not gonna die! We're gonna WIN!!"
Zero: "Hey, Maestro... Uhh... If you DIE, can we pick through your stuff before we head back to Sol?"
Maestro: "You can burn in Hell."
And I don't fear those religious enough to try and kick my butt, I remind myself that one day I may have an Arrow, and then they'll all be screwed.
That, and the fact that I can hold my own in a good religious debate.
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Maestro: "Lighten up Spyder! We're not gonna die! We're gonna WIN!!"
Zero: "Hey, Maestro... Uhh... If you DIE, can we pick through your stuff before we head back to Sol?"
Maestro: "You can burn in Hell."
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Mad Hatter
Spaceman
Jees Quarto, you take things soooooo seriously!
Of course, atheists have holy places in Jerusalem - the Underground night club!
But seriously, you don`t really think this "sovreignty of god" would actually work, do you? I say, give them sovreignty in their holy places, and end this damned conflict. But, of course, who ever listens to me....
Of course, atheists have holy places in Jerusalem - the Underground night club!
But seriously, you don`t really think this "sovreignty of god" would actually work, do you? I say, give them sovreignty in their holy places, and end this damned conflict. But, of course, who ever listens to me....
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