Who's better?

Quarto said:
Re: Jazz - Basically, what TC just said.
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Yeah, but Jazz just tried to do those things, meanwhile Thrak actualy acomplished them. And Thrak was never honorable.

Re: Thrak - Oh? Did you expect him to purr and lie down at your feet? There was a war on. Had Angel been a Kilrathi spy caught on Earth, she too would have been executed. Wartime protocol is not nice for spies. And as for the bio-weapons and nuclear weapons, the Kilrathi might not see anything dishonourable in the use of such weapons. Besides, we used the Temblor bomb. Is that any more humane?
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Yes she would be killed, but the fact is Thrak did kill her, Jazz didn't. Also, it's clearly stated in the novels that use of such weapons is *dishonorable* for the Kilrathi. As for the T-bomb, it was either us or them. The Kilrathi fleet that was larger than the one at the BoT was going to leave for Earth in another 48 hours and face a Confed fleet that was smaller than the Confed fleet at the BoT. There was no other way. The Kilrathi didn't need to nuke all those worlds on their way to Earth, neither did they have to use the Bioweapons on Locanda IV, it was only because of the Thrak's hatered for humans.

Re: Khasra - Like Jazz, he was a traitor. It's not how long he was in the game, but what he did while he was there
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. He was a snivelling little power-hungry, flea-bitten, mangy furball. I was so happy to take care of him for Our Prince
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But Khasra didn't do anything bad.
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Yes, he was a traitor, but if he did suced at killing Thrak maybe the Emperor would be overthrown, and somoeone that actualy respected the humans in a certain way would become the new Emperor. Than maybe there could be a way to negotiate peace, or at least the bioweapons and the nukes wouldn't be used to murder inocent cicilians.



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A good soldier is not the one who die for his country, it's the one who makes his enemy die for his.
Gen. Patton
 
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Earthworm: Oh yes, Jazz just _attempted_ to kill all your friends. After all, there were four of you left, so I guess he failed
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. And you were blamed for the 'Claw, transferred to a space station, and you wasted ten years of your life while the Kilrathi advanced. But hey, at least you didn't get shot for treason
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.

"Yes, she would be killed, but the fact is Thrak did kill her, Jazz didn't."
Let me run a little quote by you - "Mercy went out the door with my career."
Blair would have shot a defenceless man. There are certain (Terran) rules regarding ejected pilots. One of them is not to shoot at them.

We on earth also used bio-weapons, and nuclear weapons, and chemical weapons. Was Truman a bloodthirsty maniac? Was that an "us or them" situation?

As for Khasra, he didn't want peace, nor was he trying to kill Thrak because of some idealistic notion. He just wanted to seize power and rule the Empire. He wasn't even a proper Kilrathi - I mean, what kind of a Kilrathi says "Your grandfather [the Emperor] is old, and weak!" No respect for authority. What a Sa'guk
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.
 
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IMO Jazz was the man to hate the most! Whether he accomplished the things he intended to do is of no importance.
There are different ways to hate someone:
Of course you have to hate Thrak because of his opinion about humans and what he did to Angel. After all, he was the enemy. But at least he treated her like an honourable warrior. You could respect him for most of his actions (and his skills as a pilot, well, until he meets you, that is!
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).
Jazz, on the other hand, tried to kill, betray and frame you. Those are all devious things to do. This kind of behaviour deserves real personal hatred!

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No one will hear your cry of death in the void of space
 
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Nighthawk: One of my favourite cutscenes is the one where you see Jazz trying to eject from the Morningstar, and getting caught up in the explosion. That made it all worth it
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.
 
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Quarto said:
Earthworm: Oh yes, Jazz just _attempted_ to kill all your friends. After all, there were four of you left, so I guess he failed
smile.gif
. And you were blamed for the 'Claw, transferred to a space station, and you wasted ten years of your life while the Kilrathi advanced. But hey, at least you didn't get shot for treason
smile.gif
.
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But Jazz didn't kill the people on the Claw, the cats took care of that. And if he didn't Do me that favor of framing for the destruction of the TC than by the time when the Concordia jumps into Carnaveon (sp?) system I wouldn't be there to save her because even if I was on the Concordia her launch deck was damaged.
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"Yes, she would be killed, but the fact is Thrak did kill her, Jazz didn't."

Let me run a little quote by you - "Mercy went out the door with my career."
Blair would have shot a defenceless man. There are certain (Terran) rules regarding ejected pilots. One of them is not to shoot at them.
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Not necesarly. In many books/movies we see somone holding a gun, about to shot someone, but at the last second they decide not to do it.

We on earth also used bio-weapons, and nuclear weapons, and chemical weapons. Was Truman a bloodthirsty maniac? Was that an "us or them" situation?
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That was over 600 years ago. Get over it.
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As for Khasra, he didn't want peace, nor was he trying to kill Thrak because of some idealistic notion. He just wanted to seize power and rule the Empire. He wasn't even a proper Kilrathi - I mean, what kind of a Kilrathi says "Your grandfather [the Emperor] is old, and weak!" No respect for authority. What a Sa'guk
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.
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But the fact is that unlike Thrak and his old and weak gradfather he probably wasn't as corupt. Thrak and the Emperor didn't have any respect for the humans (those arogant bastards), treated as like pray even though many times we kicked their buts despite overwhelming odds. Khasra tried to kill Thrak, and that's why I like him. Thrakhath sucks.
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A good soldier is not the one who die for his country, it's the one who makes his enemy die for his.
Gen. Patton
 
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Regarding shooting Jazz down: It would have been completely legal (reference the Wing Commander IV novel). Jazz was *not* a prisoner of war, he was a terrorist taken in arms against his country.

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Long live the Confederation,
Ben "Bandit" Lesnick
( loaf@wcnews.com - 302228)

The Wing Commander CIC

"You go, LOAF! Get some!" -JPG

Bombardez les Ptitard!
 
LOAF: Nope. He was a Confed pilot, and even though everybody by then knew he was a traitor, he hadn't been convicted yet. In SO2, it would have been ok, but not in WC2. And besides, killing Angel was also legal but everybody makes a big deal out of it
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.

Earthworm: And what about Spirit? Just because he wasn't the one who pulled the trigger does not make him any less responsible.

Dang, would you look at the time? I've got a lecture in five minutes. I'll finish this later.
 
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Oh yeah, I completly forgot about Spirit.
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Still, killing Angel, though legal pissed us off, no one would care if Jazz bought it.

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A good soldier is not the one who die for his country, it's the one who makes his enemy die for his.
Gen. Patton
 
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Convicted? What the blarp are you talking about? The pilot Jazz shoots in the Wing IV novel wasn't 'convicted', and that was legal... (my legal precedence, as it were
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).

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Long live the Confederation,
Ben "Bandit" Lesnick
( loaf@wcnews.com - 302228)

The Wing Commander CIC

"You go, LOAF! Get some!" -JPG

Bombardez les Ptitard!
 
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Bandit LOAF said:
The pilot Jazz shoots in the Wing IV novel wasn't 'convicted', and that was legal... (my legal precedence, as it were
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).
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Um, what? Jazz in the WC4 novel? I think you mean Seether.


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A good soldier is not the one who die for his country, it's the one who makes his enemy die for his.
Gen. Patton
 
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I really didn't like Jazz. Thrakath was alright most of the time, even if he did use bioweapons and killed Angel. He was fighting for his side. Even then, he came after you one on one when you try to take out that Kilrathi starbase in WC2 when he could have brought along backup.

Jazz's killing Spirit and trying to kill Angel wasn't what bothered me about him. He was fighting for his own team, they were enemy. I didn't exactly love him for it but I didn't hate him for it either.

The thing that pissed me off about Jazz was at the end of Special Ops 2 when he left Minx by herself. She was Mandarin just like he was, he should have tried to help her. That part showed he was just a pathetic coward.
 
According to HOTT, the Emeror ordered the use of bioweapons on the humans, Thrakhath protested, but his honor was to serve.

There were two things wrong with Thrakhath, he had a superiority complex, and his actions were often influenced by his lust for blood and his unwillingness to respect nonhumans.

Jazz vented his frustrations from the war on the survivors from the Claw. It wasn't the Claw's fault that Sivar blasted Goddard, it would still have been late, if it had gotten there, it would most likely have been deystroyed before it could have even gotten within striking distance of the dreadnought.

Then he turned into a traitor and sabotaged the Terran war effort, in effect, killing his own kind.

Jazz could have been responsible for the destruction of the Claw if he was a Mandaran, he could have let the Cats know the Claw was on approch to K'tithrak Mang, maybe even broadcasting the ship's coordinates like he did on the Concordia.

His betrayal knew no limits, he even betrayed his fellow Mandarans. I doubt his brother would have approved.

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Don't look conspicuous-it draws fire.
 
Death's Head said:
According to HOTT, the Emeror ordered the use of bioweapons on the humans, Thrakhath protested, but his honor was to serve.
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True, but the bioweapons were used on only few colonies, the nukes he used in FA were his own idea, and he destroyed A LOT of colonies.



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A good soldier is not the one who die for his country, it's the one who makes his enemy die for his.
Gen. Patton
 
LOAF: I don't see how that could be legal. It's just that by that point, Seether could get away with practically anything, as proven by Paulsen's "reassignment".
But of course, none of this has anything to do with Jazz; Angel's remark ["Justice is decided in court, not with particle cannons"] seems to prove that no matter what case was in the time of WC 4, shooting down ejected foes was _not_ legal in the time of WC 2.

Right, now to continue my previous post.

Earthworm: How can you say Khasra wasn't corrupt? He was disloyal to his Liege, disloyal to his Emperor, and disloyal to his Hrai. He was a coward too. Now, I suppose as a Terran you can admire those traits (how, I don't know), but to a Kilrathi... that's like breaking every ethical rule they had. And Khasra also treated humans as worthless scum, except that we didn't see that as much. You might remember some of the things his brother Bakhtosh said, though. They're pretty indicative of how his family thinks.

Oh, and if you think that it's ok to kill somebody because of what they did... That's what Jazz was thinking too. That was the driving force behind his idea of revenge. If Blair shot him, he would be no better than Jazz was. Of course, you might argue that Blair would have been justified - but Jazz might say the same thing about himself.
I agree with Cricket, too. Jazz was also a coward.

So that's what it comes down to. Thrak was a loyal Kilrathi. Tolwyn was simply mad. Seether was just a pathetic freak.
But Khasra and Jazz were both losers who went against their races' ethics. They deserve all the hate they can get.
 
Earthworm: How can you say Khasra wasn't corrupt? He was disloyal to his Liege, disloyal to his Emperor, and disloyal to his Hrai. He was a coward too. Now, I suppose as a Terran you can admire those traits (how, I don't know), but to a Kilrathi... that's like breaking every ethical rule they had. And Khasra also treated humans as worthless scum, except that we didn't see that as much. You might remember some of the things his brother Bakhtosh said, though. They're pretty indicative of how his family thinks.
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OK, Khasra was corrupt, but he was also disobeying someone that was much more corrupt than he was. Thrak and the Emperor though they were superior to most if not all other clans, and they would kill them when they would finaly destroy us. Disobeying and trying to kill them was the first thing that comes to mind when you try to get rid of someone as corrupt as those two.




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A good soldier is not the one who die for his country, it's the one who makes his enemy die for his.
Gen. Patton
 
Emperor was corrupt because he wanted an end to the war, but it couldn't end in peace. As for Thrak, sure he was more corrupt than Khasra, but Khasra was bent on seeking glory-it untimately sent him to join his brother. Melek says the Kilrathi have become slaves to their boodlust, I don't recall everything he said, but I believe he mentioned something about traditions being broken and things the cats did that he wasn't proud of, but as your hero Tolwyn put it, "we all have one superior, the progress of the war". Kinda a lame justification for blowing up a couple worlds, but it was then perhaps the only way to make the Kilrathi "find new ways".

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Incoming fire always has the right of way.
 
Death's Head said:
Emperor was corrupt because he wanted an end to the war, but it couldn't end in peace.
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Nope, he wasn't corrupt because he wanted an end to the war. He thought his clan was superior to other clans, he was breaking the "rule of honor" the Kilrathi said on many ocasions. There are tons of corrupt things he did mentioned in the novels.

Cricket says: Using bioweapons isn't as bad as blowing up a planet...
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In what way? The nukes and bioweapons would kill everything on the planet, and make it unhabitable for hundreds of years. Besides Confed didn't want to destroy plantes full of civilians, but the Kilrathi actions forced them to do it.


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A good soldier is not the one who die for his country, it's the one who makes his enemy die for his.
Gen. Patton
 
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