Tolwyn's Family...

[Bandit LOAF]

Dear Quarto,
*If* someone is making up errors where none exist, he or she is a jackhole. This is not a personal attack, but a broad statement. If you would like to admit to doing such, I will gladly call you jackhole. Not that it's anything but a word I made up.

Hans Kruger and Max Kruger are the same person. Duh. We are never, ever, ever, ever, ever told that Tolwyn only has sons.

Maniac *did* serve with Bear. After Special Operations 1, Bear was assigned to the Concordia. In Special Operations 2, Maniac served off of the Concordia as a test pilot. I'm not certainly exactly why we can be 'quite certain' that Bear was busy explaining the mutiny, given the fact that we're told rather specifically that he served for a year onboard the Concordia.

We had been introduced to them before? When? They're the various pilots Forstchen introduced and killed off on the Tarawa (except Griffin, of course, who appears in Fleet Action -- still without a name). They did not appear anywhere else. Nor did 'PHoenix'. Your logic is incredibly lackign -- based on the *false* conclusion that Forstchen only refers to characters by their callsign when we're already familiar with their callsign you assume that he would somehow believe that we would recognize a name when he's made it up? They both start with P? Why the hell are you arguing this? Think, dammit.

Love,
LOAF

PS, [PERSONAL ATTACK GOES HERE]

 

[Quarto]

Hmm. Apparently, at 00:33 today, the maturity level of the posts in this thread fell through the floor.

We are never, ever, ever, ever, ever told that Tolwyn only has sons.

Outright, no. Probably because characters generally don't say things like "He lost two sons but he didn't lose any daughters because he didn't have any". What we do know, is that he lost two sons and his wife. What we also know, is that Kevin is his sole remaining heir (End Run). This is furthermore confirmed at some point (I can't rememeber which book) where Bear (or possibly someone else - I'm sorry, I just don't remember who and where) is thinking about the way Tolwyn has lost his *entire* family - and once again, no daughter reference. Connect the dots, LOAF. And then perhaps you should ask yourself why you would insist on Clara being Tolwyn's daughter given the fact that 1. Tolwyn has no daughter (which I believe I've conclusively proven above), and 2. Forstchen has a history of getting the names of his characters wrong (as has been proven with Banbridge and Kruger).

Yes indeed, Bear was assigned to the Concordia. However, prior to his assignment, he went through a court-martial (we know this, because he couldn't possibly be acquitted without first being accused) and undoubtedly a very detailed debriefing - because Confed HQ has always taken a great interest in the Kilrathi rebellion, this debriefing would have undoubtedly taken place at Confed HQ. Now, it is possible that his court-martial was already completed by the end of SO1, since he flew that last mission - but there is no way he could have visited Confed HQ within such a short timespan, or indeed have received a new assignment. Furthermore, we did not see Maniac flying with Bear or talking to Bear in SO2 (indeed, we didn't see Bear at all), and there's only so much that can happen in five days. Based on all that (and given the fact that no other evidence exists to support either side), I'm assuming that Bear wasn't onboard the Concordia when Maniac was. Of course, you will assume otherwise, but that's entirely up to you.

We had been introduced to them before? When? They're the various pilots Forstchen introduced and killed off on the Tarawa (except Griffin, of course, who appears in Fleet Action -- still without a name).

Right there, on the Tarawa. As I said before, we weren't given their names - but considering the fact that the only pilots around were the Tarawa pilots, it's safe to assume that those cadets we were familiarised with (without names, of course) on the Tarawa were the ones to whom the callsigns belonged. Who the hell then, is Phoenix? Why, oh please tell me why, was his callsign thrown at us, if he's a character other than Blair? And indeed, why didn't his wingmate get a callsign? Surely, if Phoenix was a totally unknown character, it would have cost Forstchen no more than five seconds to make up one more? We are inexorably led to the assumption that there is some significance to this Phoenix character. And it doesn't lay in the fact that he saved the Concordia, because his wingmate also took part in the action, yet remained nameless.

Your logic is incredibly lackign -- based on the *false* conclusion that Forstchen only refers to characters by their callsign when we're already familiar with their callsign you assume that he would somehow believe that we would recognize a name when he's made it up? They both start with P? Why the hell are you arguing this? Think, dammit.

Non, my logic works quite well, if only you would attempt to understand it. Forstchen has a tendency to forget names/get names wrong - this has been demonstrated a thousand times. When he forgets a name, he makes up a new one - and yet, expects us to recognise the character. It's not all that much of a mental leap to assume that he forgot Blair's callsign and wrote in a new one - and he could very well expect us to recognise it by describing the incident which we all know so well. "They both start with P" and all those other things I mentioned are also perfectly reasonable suggestions as to why this particular name was chosen (haven't you ever been in the situation where you've forgotten someone's name, but remember what letter it starts with, so in the process of trying to remember, you become convinced that his name is something else - but with the same letter?), but that's all they are (that's what the word "maybe" means, you know). At the end of the day, it still comes down to the simple fact that Forstchen obviously expected us to recognise the callsign.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Hmm. Apparently, at 00:33 today, the maturity level of the posts in this thread fell through the floor.

Sad commentary from the fellow who just spit up about non-existant personal attacks. You're a piss-poor moderator, Quarto, and I officially requiest you resign.

Regarding Tolwyn's family: are you aware that it's impossible to prove a negative? Why are you trying? I am not 'insisting' that Clara is Tolwyn's daughter -- I stated that *I* assumed she was and that I *know* she's not his wife. There's no real way to get out of me assuming that, save the incredible time traveling capacity of the 4dfx card. You are being a jackhole over nothing.

Page 67 (the *first* page!) of End Run makes it quite clear that Maniac was assigned to the Concordia when Bear was transferred off. Remember that Maniac did on and off combat tours between test piloting jobs (WCP Guide).

Allow me to outline what you're argument regarding callsigns boils down to.
- Forstchen only gives callsigns-only for pilots who have been previously introduced.
- Forstchen also gives only callsigns to new characters.
- A character named Phoenix is mentioned in End Run.
- Phoenix must go in the first group because Quarto says so and possibly because his name starts with 'P'.

Allow me to state the obvious: THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. We are *not* lead to believe that Phoenix is in any way important, it's just a background name thrown in to flesh out the universe. Like Eisen mentinoing the Regnard Disaster in TPOF, or those lists Forstchen does where he mentions two or three historical figures and then makes up a new one. It's implied that 'Zhing' is an important Hitler-esque figure from Earth's history, but absolutely nothing is told about him.

Oh, wait, of course, Forstchen must be talking about Prince Thrakhath, because Tolwyn's family fought Thrakhath and 'Zhing' has an 'h' in it. And why would he have mentioned such a character if he didn't already exist? *OBVIOUSLY* he just made up a name for a pre-existing character and assumed we'd know who he meant, because we're magic.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Hmmm... Quarto, I could probably get a hold of False Colors through Amazon and have it sent to you by them, you know as a present or something. All you`d have to do is send me the money, and that`s it. WC1/2 guide is another issue, though. I`ve never run into either of them.

Back to the subject.
First, let me start by saying: Let`s not get personal about these things. I wasn`t particularly hurt by being called a jackhole, since it doesn`t really mean anything, and we all have our PMS days (no offence intended).

One thing I noticed, Blair`s name was established when Freedom Flight came out, and that was back in 92, way before WC3 came out. If you want the exact page I`ll dig it up.

Bear couldn`t have had 1st hand knowledge of Maniac`s manic personality, even if he did serve on the Concordia when Maniac was there during SO2. The reason is, that Maniac had changed. In WC1 he was crazy, suicidal, unsafe to fly with, a troublemaker, and all in all pretty much dispised by the rest of the pilots. but in SO2 he was a squadron commander. He was a hero and he was more responsible. He had earned respect, even if he was still a bit nutty side, but again, he was considered an ace pilot.
So, even if Bear had known him, he didn`t quite know the old, crazy Maniac, not 1st hand knowledge, that is. That`s why it is weird, the way Bear refers to him.

[This message has been edited by Mad Hatter (edited September 15, 2000).]

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I believe cheap WCP guides are available from Chips & Bits... or just search Bibliofind and you'll see a bunch.

When Bear would have known him (post-SO2), Maniac was definately quite insane -- he'd lost his squadron, and he had those scary earrings and red eyes and was a general all around whack-job. Still, Bear just refers to Maniac laughing at his assignment to Tarawa... which doesn't seem particularly crazy

(Yes, Blair's name was established as "Maverick" Blair long, long ago -- and it appeared thusly in the information kit Forstchen worked from. This is why you see Blair appearing in FF and 'Maverick' being mentioned in the WC3 novel)

 

[Dralthi5]

Perhaps we should just try to contact Bill Forstchen and find out who this "Phoenix" really is.

I'm going to ask a new question, but I hope it won't turn into yet another heated exchange between LOAF and Quarto.

In the WC3 novel, it states that Hobbes and Blair (a junior lieutenant) served together on the Tiger's Claw. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding it, but this seems not entirely right to me. Right after he defected and was released from Confed HQ, didn't Hobbes go with Paladin to Ghorah Khar to assist the rebels? Where would he find time to fly off the Claw? And, I don't know about you, but when Hobbes defected, I wasn't a junior lieutenant. I was a Lt. Colonel! Could anyone clear this up for me?

Another book question: Were any sequels for Action Stations planned? To me, the ending just screamed "sequel", what with all the talk of Confed needing a major victory and Geoff Tolwyn getting a ship command.

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

[This message has been edited by Dralthi5 (edited September 15, 2000).]

 

[TC]

(A) Maniac was NEVER respected.

(B) Either Maniac was insane throughout WC2 and its sequels or he enjoyed drinking large amounts of coffee. He had red eyes, was incredibly hyper, and a moron. As Maniac is not an albino I'll assume the eyes were because he was crazy.

TC

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CAG of the Blacklance HQ
"Canadian and proud of it"-TC
You are in no way entitled to any WC games, if you don't have them its your own damn fault.

 

[Mad Hatter]

I think it`s safe to say Dralthi5, that since Blair was demoted to captain at the beginning of WC2, he had to be at least a major at the end of SM2. Not everyone gets the lt. colonel promotion. It depends on how well you do.

O.K, I can see why maniac would become totally crazy after loosing his squadron, but still, he had somewhat changed between WC1 and SO2.

 

[Quarto]

Sad commentary from the fellow who just spit up about non-existant personal attacks. You're a piss-poor moderator, Quarto, and I officially requiest you resign.

That's a negative, ace. I didn't throw a personal insult, I merely commented about the immaturity of your post. Again, your *post*, not *you*. And if you have something to say about how I moderate, Rule 9. E-mail. Of course, as Admin, you don't actually have to obey the rules - indeed, as Admin, you certainly don't need to request my resignation, as you can simply demote me. Nonetheless, good examples seem hard to come by these days, so it is my hope that you will choose to set one in this case.

Regarding Clara, I'm not trying to prove a negative. What I'm trying to prove is that other evidence, even if it cannot prove that Clara is his wife, nonetheless shows that it's more likely that Forstchen meant that she was his wife, rather than daughter. As such, the debate is of course quite pointless - but let's face it. With no new games, no new products, no new anything, all the other discussions are getting stale. So, when a new topic comes up, I will debate it regardless of whether it is pointless or not.

The same, of course, goes for the Phoenix thing. Again, I'm not trying to conclusively prove that Phoenix is Blair. Rather, I'm trying to prove that it's quite possible that Forstchen meant Phoenix to be Blair. That's why I brought the Maniac thing up. And that's also why I brought the callsign thing up. In the case of Maniac, you win. I hadn't noticed that reference, which is indeed quite embarassing since it's on the first page. In the case of the callsign thing though, it seems to be impossible to get my point across without it being twisted around somehow, so I'm just gonna give up now. Think what you shall, and I'll think what I shall.

 

[Quarto]

Right, now for the other issues here...

Dralthi5: While it is inexplicable to me how Blair could have served with Ralgha and then somehow forgotten it by the time WC2 came around, note that Blair's rank progress during WC1 was very much dependent on your actions. It is possible that you could still be a junior Lieutenant when you help Ralgha (which is what the book seems to imply), and then advance up to Major or even Lt. Colonel by the end of SM2. Furthermore, note that while WC1, the game, uses Space Force ranks, the little newspaper clipping about Blair's court-martial (KSaga manual, possibly WC2 manual as well) refers to Blair as Lt. Commander (which is indeed equivalent to Major). Thus, we could even assume that Blair had been a Navy junior Lieutenant (ie., 2nd Lieutenant, equivalent to Space Force Captain) at the time of Ralgha's defection - in which case, he most certainly could get promoted up to Lt. Commander during SM2 and make it home in time for dinner

.
A far more interesting question, in my opinion, is what did Hobbes do between WC2 and HOTT to get himself knocked down from full Colonel to Lt. Colonel (Commander)?

Mad Hatter: Hmm, really?

I'd appreciate that a lot, if we could arrange this. And you know, the CIC's Where To Buy section does mention where the WC1/2 guide can be found on-line...

 

[Mad Hatter]

False Colors shouldn`t be a problem, Quarto. I checked Amazon.com, and they have it. it costs about 6.5 USD, but I don`t know how much S&H is. If you send me an email with your full address I`ll order it for you.
As for WC1/2 guides, I`ll check it out.

I never noticed Hobbes was demoted to Lt. Colonel in HOTT. It would be interesting to know what happened.

 

[Earthworm]

A far more interesting question, in my opinion, is what did Hobbes do between WC2 and HOTT to get himself knocked down from full Colonel to Lt. Colonel (Commander)?

Considering that he's a defected enemy, he wouldn't neccessarly get the same rank in Confed as he had back with the Kilrathi. Something like Willford getting his old rank of a captain in Confed even though he's an admiral in the BW.

I never noticed Hobbes was demoted to Lt. Colonel in HOTT. It would be interesting to know what happened.

He was knocked down sometime before HoTT. BTW, what was his rank in WC2?




[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited September 16, 2000).]

 

[Death]

[Hobbes] was knocked down sometime before HoTT. BTW, what was his rank in WC2?

Ralghan nar Hhallas was identified as a colonel in WC2. However, there's no mention, IIRC, of whether that's Lt. Col or full Col. ("colonel" can refer to either when the specific type of colonel isn't important (like when talking)).

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SubCrid Death
Official Net.Nazi, LOAF's Merry Guild

[This message has been edited by Death (edited September 16, 2000).]

 

[Quarto]

He was a full Colonel, Death. He had silver birds on his uniform.

Hmm... well, we know he was on the Wolfhound, and as a Colonel, he probably commanded at least a squadron... maybe something happened to it while he was there?

Mad Hatter: Excellent

. I will do that.

 

[Dralthi5]

Perhaps when he became X.O. of the Victory, he was taken down to a Lt. Col. so he wouldn't be of equal rank with Captain Eisen.

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Quarto]

That would be very weird... generally, the promotion & demotion system in the military is fairly rigid. People don't get demoted just so they can be lower in rank than their superiors. Wouldn't be very good for morale, y'know.

 

[Dralthi5]

Well, I don't know. It was just a suggestion.

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Black Joker]

Just a question: Hobbes was served aboard TCS Wolfhound? When? And when it was mentioned?

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Mikhail "Black Joker" Babloyan

Wing Commander in Russia

 

[Bandit LOAF]

End Run tells us that Hobbes' commanded a unit onboard the Wolfhound... for at least Operation Backlash.

 

[Dralthi5]

End Run tells us quite a few things about Hobbes: He served aboard the Wolfhound, he likes to recite Kilrathi poetry to his wingmates, and his favortie taunt before defection was "Bugs Bunny screws his mother."

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!