Reconciling all the canon: is it necessary?

Pip

Spaceman
Various threads here have led me to a simple conclusion.

The canon contradicts itself.

Pretty much damn near every chance it gets, it contradicts itself.

The novels contradict chunks of the games; the cartoon contradicts bits of the movie; the movie contradicts damn near everything...

Should we really try to push it all into one canon, saying "it's all correct, in one fashion or another?"

Or is there room to say "hey, there's Movie-Canon, there's Game-Canon, there's novel-canon"?
 
There's no room for *us* to decide anything of the sort - that's completely contradictory to the purpose of having a canon in the first place.
 
Or is there room to say "hey, there's Movie-Canon, there's Game-Canon, there's novel-canon"?

I'll be the first to say that a lot of the nuances and details and little things that are lost on me. However, being on the CZ for seven years - I've seen every complaint about "continuity errors" being explained logically. So far, in my long experience with the internet, Wing Commander has the most concise "canon" out there. Once you start doing that whole "levels of canon" like Star Wars does, you've lost.

So no, there is no room for what you're suggesting. The moment something has the offical EA stamp of approval, its gone through a laborous effort of continuity checking to ensure what you're suggesting doesn't ever happen.
 
As another person who has been here for a long time I have to agree with LOAF and LeHah. Streneous efforts have been taken to look at everything we have and fit it into its respective slot. Why fix something that isn't broken? People complain about WC1, WCA and WCM seemingly to all occur at once, yet it has been explained many times that the occur within each other (1st Ep of WCA, then the Movie along with WC1 mixed in at parts).

Also, the only thing people seem to always want to split up is the WCM from the rest of the universe. Once you sit back and look at everything it makes a lot of sense. There is little in the WC canon that contradicts itself, most of the issues seem to stem from ship appearances and other little things. Somethings you accept as creative license and results of other real world constraints.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean that it at "every chance it gets, it contradicts itself." I don't see that anywhere. Anything that may appear to be a contradiction is usually not understanding the evolution of it in the universe. Phase shields and weapons technology being the one that jumps to mind.

It is all correct as well, we haven't pushed or lumped anything in that shouldn't be there. And if you think something is a contradiction please feel free to ask about it. There are plenty of us that are willing to explain what is going on, as it can be at times a little confusing for some.
 
The Wing Commander universe fits together amazingly well. Every time there's a new published timeline, from Voices of War to Victory Streak to StarSoldier and so on, each new element in the continuity (novels, cartoon, movies, etc) is added neatly and seamlessly. The foundation of entire games (Armada, WC3) is based on setup from the novels. Things in Arena, and every other game that will come in the future, are/will have things based off the movie. There are occasionally threads where people ask for clarification on how certain things fit together, and people explain it to them. When we're talking about a common frame of reference, nobody is deciding anything at all. It's all straightforward, EA and Origin have already established what things are official.
 
Oh, good, another canon discussion. :)

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not as hardcore a WC fan as some of the long-timers on this site, and while I've been coming here sporadically since the site's inception, I've only started taking active part in the disussions recently. But I've been in love with Wing Commander since I first strapped myself into my Hornet cockpit with Spirit on my wing, oh, probably fourteen years ago. So perhaps my opinion represents a nice middle ground of fandom.

I see the thoughts behind both sides of the canon discussion. On one hand, I myself have struggled with many of the apparent inconsistencies of the franchise. The problem with the franchise is that, to someone who hasn't read the strategy guides or the novels, or perhaps never had the opportunity to see Academy or play Armada, there are a lot of apparent inconsistencies, especially between the movie and the games. This is because the games IMPLY one thing, that is often in contradiction with other things, or make a statement that, taken only within the context of the game, indicates one thing that is at odds with others. A good example of this is the recent discussion about Maniac's and Blair's first meeting. In WC1 Maniac greets Blair with a "Please to meet you!" with no other context about his background aside from the Claw Marks manual, which says nothing about him knowing Bluehair. Normally, when someone says "pleased to meet you" to someone else, this strongly implies that they are meeting them for the first time, unless there is obvious context that they are saying it ironically. However, that context is absent in the game, and it is only apparent after reading the strategy guide or watching Academy (neither of which I have unfortunately had the opportunity to do). There are many other examples...people familiar with WC1 know Bossman dies during the Sivar Eshrad (sp?) incident, yet the movie states that Bossman died before Blair joined the Tiger's Claw. In the canon, Bossman was not really dead at that point, only captured or something (I understand from LOAF, although how he managed to get captured and his fighter somehow made it back intact to the Tiger's Claw I still need explained), but there is no context in either the game or the movie to clarify this...so it's a glaring contradiction to people who have only played the game and seen the movie. A third example is the Pilgrim wars...the movie implies that these were a major, major event in Terran history, with a lot of lingering prejudice and ill will, and yet they are never, ever mentioned directly or implied at indirectly (unless you count distrust of Border Worlders in WC4...but I thought the Border Worlders and the Pilgrims were distinct) in the span of six whole games. I think such contradictions are what the original poster is driving at, and I can certainly see his point of view. Remember, hardcore fans, what the universe looks like to those of us who haven't read (or helped to write) every scrap of material that is out there...

On the other hand, it's important for people who complain about continuity to remember that EVERY francise will have continuity difficulties, especially if you look at only some of the pieces. This is inevitable when you have more than one person working on a project--each person has their own ideas and will add their own elements, and often communication is not perfect enough to make everythign mesh perfectly and imply everything else correctly all the time. It becomes even more true when your sources are all on different media--games, novels, strategy guides, game fiction, movie, TV--with completely different production crews. Even if you had a person, or a team of people, overseeing continutity of everything, there is simply too much for them to catch everything. I think one of LOAF's major points is that this is exactly why the concept of canon even exists...so that subsequent developers of both fan-driven and official projects can fit what has been established and keep future continutiy errrors as small as possible. For example, both the movie and the games involve Bossman. A canon describing his life...why he wasn't on the Claw when Blair first arrived, what his family was like, and when and how he actually died, etc,...has been established that fits the different pieces from the game, game ficiton, and movies together. If some future game or novel or movie revolving around Bossman's life is made (which would be cool in my opinion), then this canon is very useful in making sure that this new product DOESN'T contradict what is already known, which may be why LOAF and others are so set against having multiple layers of canon.

Incidentally, it does seem that every franchise has continuity issues, and it would seem that Wing Commander is better than most in not contradicting itself, once one gets deeper into the fiction. Far better than Star Trek, Star Wars, etc. (in fact, the only sci-fi franchise of similar magnitude that has better continuity that I can think of is Babylon 5, but maybe that's cheating because it's mainly a TV show and a series of movies and novelizations...there were never games or independent novels). For that matter, it probably has tighter continuity even than Lord of the Rings, which WAS created by a single person.
 
I don't think that has anything to do with the canon itself. That just a matter of people needing an explanation for things they think are contradictions. Just because people don't mention previous events concerning them doesn't mean they didn't happen.

You mentioned B5 and one event instantly came to mind. Sheridan and Franklin actually first meet each other during the Earth-Minbari War on a secret mission to end the war, yet when they meet each other on B5 it's like they are meeting for the first time. While it seems like a contradiction, in reality this is how people are. Every time I see a friend from long ago we don't mention every event that we've been involved with together, as it's just not how people think about things in real life.

In WC the events people get hung up on are one's that we focus on trying to untangle for people. Just because the answer isn't as clean and neat as others doesn't mean it's invalid.

Chris mentioned the timelines that have appeared. With every later revision of it events that weren't there before are seamlessly added to the canon with no ill effects. Just look at the S*S timeline, it incorporates movie, novel and WCA stuff with no problem. Hell it even includes dates for events that were only ideas in writers minds (Andrew Keith's ideas for 2 post FC books most notably along with POL and other products).

I can sort of understand some people's "concerns" but in reality they are unfounded. If you have a question about how something fits into the canon, just ask and someone will be more than willing to explain it so that it makes sense. And don't think it's just the less "hardcore" fans that have this problem, I've often been scratching my head on something and had to turn to LOAF and Chris to clear it up. There's nothing wrong with that, if anything it promotes positive debate on subjects.
 
To me Canon is very important, it adds to the credability of the universe. I think as an active fanbase with mods, fan fiction, fan movies, its even more important.

Honestly now the Wing Commander movie has been referenced by a game it makes things a lot less muddy for me, not more so as I had anticipated (atleast after the input of everyone on the boards). Heck star soldier is partly responsible for my revived interest in the series.

I may be in the minority but I would love a remake of Wing Commander 1 (Console marketplaces/ Steam maybe?). Minor additional scenes, and nods to these ties in continuinty in such a remake would be awesome.
 
I may be in the minority but I would love a remake of Wing Commander 1 (Console marketplaces/ Steam maybe?). Minor additional scenes, and nods to these ties in continuinty in such a remake would be awesome.

But what would any of that accomplish? I have Wing Commander sitting on a shelf at home. If its not broke, why fix it?
 
But what would any of that accomplish? I have Wing Commander sitting on a shelf at home. If its not broke, why fix it?

As I said, I feel I'm in the minority on this one. The best comparison I know how to make is one I've made before I'm certain, the Resident Evil Remake, which remains one of my favourite games to this day. It didn't replace the original, indeed Capcom still ported the original version to the DS, but the remake complimented it. The result pleased fans and reviewers alike adding extra pieces, clearing up the odd lose end and bringing a budget to the title Capcom couldn't afford at the time.
Not only did it please existing fans but it served to indoctrinate the Gamecube crowd into this series which had previously only been Playstation players. Whatever direction the series heads in, giving exposure to its origins can only be a good thing.
Heck Prince of Persia remake was the XBLA game I played on most (save geometry wars) prior to its breaking (yay, its fixed and I should have Arena by Saturday). It didn't change the levels, it simply updated the graphics and refined the controls.

And there was enough story to Wing 1, and especially the add-on packs, to warrant more cinematic presentation than was possible in 1990 (Metal Gear Solids remake primarily focused on giving a more cinematic feel).

As my disclaimer stated I'm probably in the minority, but I know I would return to the original more frequently given that kind of update.
 
LeHah, I think the issue with remakes is that it's hard to get them done right, not that remaking a classic is an inherently evil thing to think about. Think about SWC and WC1... SWC decided to "fix" things that weren't broken in WC1 (stealth fighter tie-in, etc) and it's a great game regardless. Come up with another WC1 remake that's as good as SWC and I'll sure as hell love it.

Granted, you can't "remake" the feeling that WC1 gave to people who first played the original way back when and fell in love with it and such... but I don't think that is the only thing that it comes down to. I'd love to play a nicely done Elite remake with fancy graphics, even though I am perfectly aware that it won't be a life changing experience that will keep me in front of the computer all weekend, like it was when I played the original. I don't think that is a requirement for the remake to be a great game in its own right.

It's more or less what Pedro said... you will only be disappointed even by a very nicely done remake if you expected it to replace the original.
 
Well said, Eder...

How much of the "rosy halo" around our "favorite games from back in the day" is just nostalgia?

There's an argument to be made for not OVERanalyzing all the bits'n'pieces... Wing Commander is amazingly coherent!
 
I think such contradictions are what the original poster is driving at, and I can certainly see his point of view. Remember, hardcore fans, what the universe looks like to those of us who haven't read (or helped to write) every scrap of material that is out there...

Fundamentally, yes, that is what I'm driving at.

Clearly, I'm missing a great deal of the canon -- heavens know I'd never even heard of the Confederation Handbook before I started seeing it referenced here, for instance -- and so, a lot of it looks disjointed and perhaps contradictory. Possibly some of it has to do with the fact that I simply didn't enjoy large portions of the non-game canon, and part of it had to do with those feelings of disconnection; that it felt like many of these things were being developed independently and only later married up down the road.

Maybe it's just me.
 
It's more or less what Pedro said... you will only be disappointed even by a very nicely done remake if you expected it to replace the original.

But there is no benefit to be had from such a project - or do we all so soon forget things like Star Wars Special Editions and Gus Van Sant redos of Psycho?
 
But there is no benefit to be had from such a project - or do we all so soon forget things like Star Wars Special Editions and Gus Van Sant redos of Psycho?

Is now a bad time to admit I liked some of what was done with the Star Wars special editions?
 
In the canon, Bossman was not really dead at that point, only captured or something (I understand from LOAF, although how he managed to get captured and his fighter somehow made it back intact to the Tiger's Claw I still need explained)

Well, that's simple! Many fighters were badly damaged at the time, including Bossman's usual, so, he was simply ordered to take on a Star Base in a Scimitar! Everyone who played SM1 knows that! :rolleyes:
 
But there is no benefit to be had from such a project - or do we all so soon forget things like Star Wars Special Editions and Gus Van Sant redos of Psycho?
Hehe, well, nobody can argue in favor of that Psycho remake, I'll give you that much. :p
 
But there is no benefit to be had from such a project - or do we all so soon forget things like Star Wars Special Editions and Gus Van Sant redos of Psycho?

As I said the Res Evil remake scored higher from critics, and contributed a lot to the fanbase, without changing any of the canon, merely adding to it and tieing up lose ends (as opposed to RE0 which was filled with contradictions). Even the improved graphics, voice-overs and music are significant benefits.
The existance of poorly done remakes don't make it an inherantly bad idea.
 
Whats wrong with SE editions of the original Star Wars?

They changed the feel of the movie by:
Replacing awesome looking models (ie. x-wings and tie fighters) with CG
Replacing the original Boba Fetts voice with the new guy who did Jango Fett
Added some more crappy scenes (Such as Han Solo talking to Jabba the Hutt after making the deal with "Obi")
Changing the original land scenes scenes by adding cg people and veichles and buildings

There is several more, but I'll stop ranting.

The game with the biggest contradictions in it's story line is Alone in the Dark. They didn't exactly explain why Edward Carnnaby was in the 30s and all of the sudden here he is looking younger than before, and in 2001?
 
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