Real Life Mandarins

[Phillip Tanaka]

First of all, I apologise in advance to those who feel that this post hits a little too close to home. Okay, surely you would remember the F******* Mandarins, right? You do? Good. I believe that there are real life Mandarins in the world today. I may be a little off the rails here, but I feel that some who protest counter-terror (I would say those who protest war, but I'm against war as well, even if I see why action may be nessecary against Iraq). Or those who are against the Government, where at a recent anti war rally I saw they claimed that the Government (the Australian and\or the American Government) are the worst terrorists. Or the disrespect some (some, I stress, not all) have for the law, with violent protests and, at the same rally I attended, a planned march was stopped by police. The cry of 'f*** the pigs, let's march anyway' was enthusiastically encouraged, and were it not for the presence of police and military, they might have done so. Or those who allow and smuggle illegal immigrants into our countries so that they can hold them to ransom by threats of mass suicide unless their demands are met, and break them out of the centres where they are held to be processed, like what happened in Australia. (I actually have no problem with helping those in need, but certainly the que jumpers are better off being held in camps than being left in a war zone.) Or the downright proper c*** Colsen wannabes, the ones who actively conspire to harm innocent people. Would you say that some of these people are comparable to the Mandarins?

 

[Corsair(pilot)]

My god man... you really should wake up.....

(waits patiently for this thread to be closed)

 

[Chris Blair]

Originally posted by Corsair(pilot)
My god man... you really should wake up.....

(waits patiently for this thread to be closed)

Tick...Tock...Tick..Tock...

 

[Ender]

I'd might agree if you were to concede that those who blindly follow whatever they are told to believe by their government are analogous to the Black Lance.

Further, as one of the 200,000 demonstrators who were in DC last weekend, let me give you a brief overview of some people I met:

There was the couple from Lynchburg VA, whose son is a Captain in the Army Rangers- they do not want him to have to fight.

There was the Korean War veteran ho thinks that the current generation does not know the horrid reality of war and should be spared the opportunity to find out.

The Vietnam Vet who did not find a way out of the draft (like most of the Republican and Democratic party leadership), but organized forms of civil disobediance within the army.

Those are just three people. There were over 200,000. There were 40,000+ in San Francisco and demonstrations in solidarity around the world. Though all of us there dislike some of the things America has done in the past, and do not believe that we owe any allegiance to it's government now, this country is our home. We are students, we are workers, veterens and soldiers, artists, husbands, wives, fathers and mothers. But above all we are patriots.


That's it for me. I've said my peace. Have a nice evening.

 

[Chris Blair]

Originally posted by Ender
I'd might agree if you were to concede that those who blindly follow whatever they are told to believe by their government are analogous to the Black Lance.

Further, as one of the 200,000 demonstrators who were in DC last weekend, let me give you a brief overview of some people I met:

There was the couple from Lynchburg VA, whose son is a Captain in the Army Rangers- they do not want him to have to fight.

There was the Korean War veteran ho thinks that the current generation does not know the horrid reality of war and should be spared the opportunity to find out.

The Vietnam Vet who did not find a way out of the draft (like most of the Republican and Democratic party leadership), but organized forms of civil disobediance within the army.

Those are just three people. There were over 200,000. There were 40,000+ in San Francisco and demonstrations in solidarity around the world. Though all of us there dislike some of the things America has done in the past, and do not believe that we owe any allegiance to it's government now, this country is our home. We are students, we are workers, veterens and soldiers, artists, husbands, wives, fathers and mothers. But above all we are patriots.


That's it for me. I've said my peace. Have a nice evening.

*Applause*

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I don't think the thread needs to be closed -- but it does need to be moved to the off topic zone. It's only barely WC related as is, and it's not going to get *more* WC related.

Now, I believe you're wrong. You can't say "everyone who disagrees with me is the enemy"... if the country worked that way it wouldn't be worth going to war over. You may believe people who are protesting war are misguided or uninformed (I personally believe this)... but you can't say that they shouldn't be able to do that.

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

Originally posted by Ender
I'd might agree if you were to concede that those who blindly follow whatever they are told to believe by their government are analogous to the Black Lance.

Further, as one of the 200,000 demonstrators who were in DC last weekend, let me give you a brief overview of some people I met:

There was the couple from Lynchburg VA, whose son is a Captain in the Army Rangers- they do not want him to have to fight.

There was the Korean War veteran ho thinks that the current generation does not know the horrid reality of war and should be spared the opportunity to find out.

The Vietnam Vet who did not find a way out of the draft (like most of the Republican and Democratic party leadership), but organized forms of civil disobediance within the army.

Those are just three people. There were over 200,000. There were 40,000+ in San Francisco and demonstrations in solidarity around the world. Though all of us there dislike some of the things America has done in the past, and do not believe that we owe any allegiance to it's government now, this country is our home. We are students, we are workers, veterens and soldiers, artists, husbands, wives, fathers and mothers. But above all we are patriots.


That's it for me. I've said my peace. Have a nice evening.

I respect your opinion, as I respect the opinion of anyone who exercises their right to free speech, and would defend it. In fact, I'm glad that you brought up the analogy in referrence to the Black Lance. You are right in what you say about how some blindly follow a cause. It's happened with the Western military, where young people enlist because they blindly think it is the right thing to do (and I do not discourage those who do believe that it is a good thing to join the army), it happened in the East, and getting back to Wing Commander some did blindly follow Confed in The Price of Freedom. They did blindly follow the Black Lance, no matter how many innocent people died or what weapons of war were used (and I'll add that the ending is a beaut).

And for those who protest war and do not want to go to war, I fully sympathise with them. I'm sure that there are a lot of people who do not have any idea about the horrid reality of war. I think that it may have to do with how war is usually portrayed. (You know, the bloodless Medal of Honour games, or the glorification of soldiers in a million movies. Though, I will say Full Metal Jacket and Saving Private Ryan are good at showing the reality of war, real war, is hell).

'Though all of us there dislike some of the things America has done in the past, and do not believe that we owe any allegiance to it's government now, this country is our home. We are students, we are workers, veterens and soldiers, artists, husbands, wives, fathers and mothers. But above all we are patriots.'

Are you someone after my own heart or what? Very nicely said, and as Mariko 'Spirit' Tanaka once said, 'Many of us have suffered terrible losses. But I cannot stop thinking that what we are doing here, it is important. I had begun to think that perhaps any war was wrong, that the cost of life is too high. But perhaps there are wars that must be fought. And I think this is one of them.'

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
I don't think the thread needs to be closed -- but it does need to be moved to the off topic zone. It's only barely WC related as is, and it's not going to get *more* WC related.

Now, I believe you're wrong. You can't say "everyone who disagrees with me is the enemy"... if the country worked that way it wouldn't be worth going to war over. You may believe people who are protesting war are misguided or uninformed (I personally believe this)... but you can't say that they shouldn't be able to do that.

Sorry, I didn't see this one until after I posted. I agree that you can't say that, as you said, "everyone who disagrees with me is the enemy". It's stupid. I wouldn't deny them their right to free speech, I probably wouldn't even go as far to say they're misguided in not wanting war. I don't want war, but there are wars to be fought, and I think this is one of them, as somebody once said. But you are right in thinking that we have a right in thinking that we are entitled to our thoughts to what people say. (Which is why I don't rip people's heads off if they think I'm wrong).

 

[TC]

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
First of all, I apologise in advance to those who feel that this post hits a little too close to home. Okay, surely you would remember the F******* Mandarins, right?

You can swear if you want, nobody cares.

You do? Good. I believe that there are real life Mandarins in the world today. I may be a little off the rails here, but I feel that some who protest counter-terror (I would say those who protest war, but I'm against war as well, even if I see why action may be nessecary against Iraq).

Wow... those who exercise their right to speak are traitors? Does anyone who disagrees with your opinion not deserve their rights?

Or those who are against the Government,

That pisses me off... The ability to speak against one's government is one of the founding principles of any democratic country. The government functions to represent the people. If they're doing it wrong, you damned well tell them. The people are the country, not the government. The government is the servant of the people.

where at a recent anti war rally I saw they claimed that the Government (the Australian and\or the American Government) are the worst terrorists.

Wow! They used a catchy phrase! The bastards! Sensationalism is a form of rhetoric. If that makes people evil traitors then all the polititcians, public speakers, and PR people are traitors...

Or the disrespect some (some, I stress, not all) have for the law, with violent protests and, at the same rally I attended, a planned march was stopped by police. The cry of 'f*** the pigs, let's march anyway' was enthusiastically encouraged, and were it not for the presence of police and military, they might have done so.

They might have marched? The bastards! You're angry at them because they don't think the police should be able to stop them from coming together and demonstrating. It was a planned march, what's the problem? People should have the right to demonstrate and have every reason to be angry if it's denied to them.

Or those who allow and smuggle illegal immigrants into our countries so that they can hold them to ransom by threats of mass suicide unless their demands are met, and break them out of the centres where they are held to be processed, like what happened in Australia. (I actually have no problem with helping those in need, but certainly the que jumpers are better off being held in camps than being left in a war zone.) Or the downright proper c*** Colsen wannabes, the ones who actively conspire to harm innocent people. Would you say that some of these people are comparable to the Mandarins?

This sounds like Australian politics that I'm not familiar with, so I'll refrain from comment... The fact that you would compare people who speak out against there government to people that betray their entire race to a species that plans to slaughter everyone is somewhat sensationalistic in and of itself... Wow, you must be a traitor.

The next step that one would infer from your words is something akin to the McCarthyism era in the U.S....

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

Re: Re: Real Life Mandarins

Originally posted by TC
Wow, you must be a traitor.

To think that I am in any way a traitor is about as rediculous as thinking that Spirit was one. Although I am happy that you have the guts to speak your mind and respect your opinion, no matter what my thoughts on them may be.

The next step that one would infer from your words is something akin to the McCarthyism era in the U.S....[/B]

To be honest, I hated McCarthyism for a number of reasons. If some of the things I've said were McCarthy-like I did not intend them to. And I'm sorry if you are a protester of the war and I have pissed you off by bringing this topic up, I simply thought that it could be talked about maturely.

 

[TC]

Re: Re: Re: Real Life Mandarins

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka

To think that I am in any way a traitor is about as rediculous as thinking that Spirit was one. Although I am happy that you have the guts to speak your mind and respect your opinion, no matter what my thoughts on them may be.

Hmm... you don't seem to understand the concept of sarcasm... Re-read my earlier comment with reguard to sensationalism, there's a connection...

And I'm sorry if you are a protester of the war and I have pissed you off by bringing this topic up, I simply thought that it could be talked about maturely.

I find it interesting that you assume I don't support a war... Even I'm not sure if I support whichever war you're talking about, as I'm not sure if you're talking about 'counter-terror', 'counter-terror' and Iraq or war in general.

I also find it interesting that you didn't respond to my points...

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Real Life Mandarins

Originally posted by TC
I find it interesting that you assume I don't support a war... Even I'm not sure if I support whichever war you're talking about, as I'm not sure if you're talking about 'counter-terror', 'counter-terror' andIraq or war in general.

'If', and I stress if, you protest against war. Any war, but the proposed war on Iraq was what I was specifically referring to. And somewhere I think I said that I do not want war, but I can understand why action may need to be taken. Counter-terror I do fully support though. Isn't it always better to prevent these tragic events from occuring?

 

[TC]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Real Life Mandarins

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
'If', and I stress if, you protest against war. Any war, but the proposed war on Iraq was what I was specifically referring to. And somewhere I think I said that I do not want war, but I can understand why action may need to be taken. Counter-terror I do fully support though. Isn't it always better to prevent these tragic events from occuring?

Which is what protesters believe they are doing. How does that make them traitors? You've made statements about people being traitors, support them.

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Real Life Mandarins

I also find it interesting that you didn't respond to my points... [/B]

Okay, just saw this one now. Well judging by your points, if I am allowed to say so, I take it that you think I'm going a little overboard. Maybe I am. I was expecting to be told that I was. I just wanted to see if other people thought there was a connection or if it was just me, that's all.

 

[TC]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Real Life Mandarins

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
Okay, just saw this one now. Well judging by your points, if I am allowed to say so, I take it that you think I'm going a little overboard. Maybe I am. I was expecting to be told that I was. I just wanted to see if other people thought there was a connection or if it was just me, that's all.

Yes, I do think you're going overboard... Hence why I replied... that's how discussions work Then the person who has an opinion that's being question generally responds to opposing points in such a way that, hopefully, others will agree with him... If you just say things and don't respond to opposing views there's really very little point in even bringing them up, as you won't have much of a discussion

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Real Life Mandarins

Originally posted by TC
Yes, I do think you're going overboard... Hence why I replied... that's how discussions work Then the person who has an opinion that's being question generally responds to opposing points in such a way that, hopefully, others will agree with him... If you just say things and don't respond to opposing views there's really very little point in even bringing them up, as you won't have much of a discussion

Point well taken. No hard feelings, right? Phew, all this serious discussion is tiring. Might go back to TPOF and replay my fave moments for a while.

 

[Ender]

I am curious to find out why LOAF believes the anti-war movement to be "misguided" and "uninformed."

I'm just curious. His statement does to a certain extent include me, and these are adjectives I have not been called in recent memory.

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

Originally posted by Ender
I am curious to find out why LOAF believes the anti-war movement to be "misguided" and "uninformed."

I'm just curious. His satatement does to a certain extent include me, and these are adjectives I have not been called in recent memory.

After reading a book written by Clint Eastwood, I think my views are similar to his. He states that he is against war. All war. And when in the army, he was against the Korean War. Yet he is quick to reply to criticism of his character Dirty Harry's treatment of criminals, when he asks how they think of that crap, and says how people want and are interested in justice.

 

[ChrisReid]

Originally posted by Ender
I am curious to find out why LOAF believes the anti-war movement to be "misguided" and "uninformed."

I'm just curious. His satatement does to a certain extent include me, and these are adjectives I have not been called in recent memory.

I wholeheartedly agree with LOAF.. I believe the *movement* is incredibly uninformed and misguided. And I think its membership is composed of the same people who protest globalization and whatnot. I see this combined "movement" as a group of people who rant about the issues instead of working within the system along the channels that will actually bring about productive results. People protest against war all day long in the US, because they largely believe a war would bring casualties to an impoverished helpless people in some third world country. I'm of the belief that those destitute people, who would be kidnapped, tortured and killed for protesting against their own government, would be much better off after a regime-change, even if there were unfortunate civilian casualties. War itself can be cruel and all, but with the right positioning it can be beneficial.. such as how forest fires are a natural method of nature to restore parts of land. The facts show globalization benefits impoverished nations even more than the "exploitative" nations. The whole movement is misguided.

Now you might be smart and have some good points for not going to war, but I think on the whole most people don't and protest because they're uninformed and acting on gut instincts that don't hold up to reality and reasonability.

 

[Ender]

Are the motives for this war really the poor oppressed people of Iraq? Or are they to secure some of the world's richest oil reserves for Bush's oil buddies?

At the Nuremberg Trials, the international community (including the US) condemned the use of a pre-emptive strike. By anyone.

There is also a huge double standard at work. Israel, a nation which recieves over 3 BILLION dollars in US monetary aid a year, has broken far more UN resolutions, has over 200 Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD's). (Not real Jewish of them if you ask me-and yes, before you say anything, I am.)

True, a regime change would benefit the people of Iraq, but somehting tells me that once Saddam is removed, even if the Iraqi people ask, those troops are staying put for a good long time. The US does not ecxactly have a record of allowing the people to choose their leaders in other countries, fromm Chile, to South Vietnam, to Afghanistan (seriously, look up "Karzai" on HUman Rights Watch) and now Venezuella (the first attampt failed, but they're tooling up for round two.) we have been responsible for dictarors rising to power.

The CIA even, has said that Iraq poses no threat to the United States. They simply do not have the means to hurt us. And, Hussein, lunatic that he is, is not stupid. He may or may not have WMD's, we have over ten-thousand WMD's. Saddam knows that our current government is just looking for a reason to turn his peice of real-estate into a parking lot.

If you want to discuss the virues of globalization, I suggest you got to one of those "impoverished nations" and get a job. You can be work under lousy and dangerous condition, be beaten if you slow down, be paid pennies an hour and drink polluted factory water. And, you can sleep at night knowing that you've stolen a job from a hard working American.


Just a quick poll in the framework of this thread, two questions, aye or nay:
1) Are you military age in the USA, and registered for selective service? (if you are over 18, a US citizen or resident alien and have not, then yu are a felon)
2) If it comes to a draft, will you evade?

AYE
NAY