Random Q's from an annoying Newb

[frostytheplebe]

Oddly enough, I really don't know. You have to keep in mind, UE was really two separate projects - the first one started in 1999 and died later that year, the second started when we revived UE in early 2000, with a completely different team. Needless to say, When we set about reviving UE, the first thing we did was check what parts of the original project would still be useable for the "new" UE. One such thing was a cutscene showing the Intrepid being destroyed by the bugs. So, since we had that, we kept the Intrepid's destruction in the storyline.

...Then it turned out that the cutscene in question was at best half-finished, and we couldn't really use it because there was no source code for it. So, we ended up having to make it from scratch anyway .

(a similar thing happened with the Dauntless - we kept it in the new UE because there was already a model of the Bengal-class out there - but in fact, by the time UE was finished, we'd gone through no less than three completely different versions of this ship, each produced by different modellers)

wow... jeez thats rough...

BL: Weren't allowed to keep the Intrepid? As in Durango class? How would that work, I thought that ship was like an old converted destroyer that was given to the BW.

You know more then I do about the WC story line, but keep the St. Helen's? I never thought the BW actually took posession of that carrier. It was my understanding that certain elements in Confed didn't really buy into what Towlyn was doing/saying and gave Eisen a chance to really prove it, thus they put him in command of the St. Helens. But she was still crewed by Confed crews.

Also, did she not have fighters? She never launched any to aid in the fight against the Vesuvious, I know she had been rushed out of the dock... so it would make sense, but even so, most carriers near completion would usually have a few fighters on board, I thought...

 

[Bandit LOAF]

BL: Weren't allowed to keep the Intrepid? As in Durango class? How would that work, I thought that ship was like an old converted destroyer that was given to the BW.

Think about the winning endgame to WCIV - all the characters are wearing Confed flight suits and the Intrepid is in the Sol System training new fighter pilots.

It certainly wasn't given to the Border Worlds either - the Confederation didn't recognize them as any sort of political entity. It was pulled off a scrap heap or from a surplus yard somewhere and turned into a carrier. If you remember one of Tolwyn and Paladin's discussions in the novelization, the simple fact that the Border Worlds *had* a carrier was enough to justify war.

You know more then I do about the WC story line, but keep the St. Helen's? I never thought the BW actually took posession of that carrier. It was my understanding that certain elements in Confed didn't really buy into what Towlyn was doing/saying and gave Eisen a chance to really prove it, thus they put him in command of the St. Helens. But she was still crewed by Confed crews.

Eisen captured the carrier by force - elements within Confed informed him of its engine test schedule and he lead a raid to take it. The crew did include Confed technicians, sent from those same elements.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Think about the winning endgame to WCIV - all the characters are wearing Confed flight suits and the Intrepid is in the Sol System training new fighter pilots.

It certainly wasn't given to the Border Worlds either - the Confederation didn't recognize them as any sort of political entity. It was pulled off a scrap heap or from a surplus yard somewhere and turned into a carrier. If you remember one of Tolwyn and Paladin's discussions in the novelization, the simple fact that the Border Worlds *had* a carrier was enough to justify war.



Eisen captured the carrier by force - elements within Confed informed him of its engine test schedule and he lead a raid to take it. The crew did include Confed technicians, sent from those same elements.

Well that would explain why Hawk and the Admiral returned to Confed service. I take it the Border Worlds were never recognized and just returned to Confed control then...

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Well that would explain why Hawk and the Admiral returned to Confed service. I take it the Border Worlds were never recognized and just returned to Confed control then...

No, an independant Union of Border Worlds was eventually formed -- it's on the Prophecy map. Confed just didn't recognize them when they were fighting for independance (similar to the United States not recognizing the Confederate States during the Civil War). As far as the Terran Confederation is concerned in 2673, the planets that make up the Union of Border Worlds are part of Confed.

 

[Iceblade]

Of course in that situation, the BW's weren't at actually fighting Confed for independence, they weren't recognized as independent either....of course the Black Lance incident occured.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

They built up a military and insisted they were independant - Confed was either going to fight to keep the systems or it was going to abandon them... which is exactly how pretty much every civil war starts. The Border Worlds arent' some unassuming innocent.

 

[Crazy J]

If you read Hold The Line (which is probably not canon in any sense of the word, but still a good read), you'll learn that the Border Worlds did gain their independance (which was slightly hinted at in Prophecy, and as LOAF mentioned it was on the map), and they scrounged up a small military - a single fleet carrier and a light carrier (and their escorts, which were essentially updated versions of WC3 craft) were responsible for an entire sector of space. And a fair number of their fighters were second-hand Confed craft. Basically, they're free from Confed, but if the shit hits the fan then Confed will have to bail them out.

Regarding the bomber topic at the end of last page - I'd take a Sabre over a BS almost anyday; because at least the Sabre can manuver. Even if the torp payload is down, it still has a lot of missiles. And guns. And afterburners.

 

[Delance]

I think Confed didn't have a problem with the idea of the Border Worlds independence, but with all the violence in the frontier. The reason on Declaration of War vote was responsability for acts of violence, not because the UBW said they were independent. I’m not sure when official recognition came, but Confed demonstrated interest in a peaceful resolution from the start. After the Border Worlds declared they were no longer subject to Confed Laws, the Great Assembly issued a decree to monitor Border World's military vessels on Confed Territory, a very reasonably thing to do under the circumstances, since they could outright take a military response at that point.

I wonder what was the status of the members of the UBW prior to WCIV. Tolwyn calls them “a loyal ally”, but refers to them as if they were not present and represented in the Assembly.

 

[Quarto]

Well, the game and the book differ a little in this regard. The game does imply that Confed doesn't mind the Border Worlds becoming fully independent, while the book implies that the situation is a bit more complicated than that.

 

[Delance]

Yeah, it sure was problematic, but in the end Confed decided not to go to war to stop the independence of the Border Worlds. The trouble the Black Lance went into the elaborate scheme of manufacturing reasons for war is a sign of how much Confed was not in the mood for it. It took a massive conspiracy with "incredible resources".

 

[Crazy J]

..is a sign of how much Confed was not in the mood for it.

Dude, after 40-something years of war, would you be in the mood for another? Seriously. I'd be sick of it.

 

[Delance]

Dude, after 40-something years of war, would you be in the mood for another? Seriously. I'd be sick of it.

Apparently, the entire Faction under Tolwyn.

 

[Crazy J]

True - but as has been discussed in the thread for czacen's mod, the Black Lance wasn't a huge faction. They, in fact, had very limited resources and had to manipulate Confed and the Border Worlds to do their bidding. They had to trick Blair into stealing them a laboratory so they could continue their work.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Well, the game and the book differ a little in this regard. The game does imply that Confed doesn't mind the Border Worlds becoming fully independent, while the book implies that the situation is a bit more complicated than that.

I don't get that indication at all. The first portion of Wing Commander IV is a direct aping of the crisis leading to the American Civil War, down to the strengthened Border Worlds "militia" and the terms of the political debate set forth by Maniac and Vagabond (the Border Worlds are supposed to be a partner - a state - rather than the colonies they now claim to feel like...).

Then you have the actual secession: "...The Union of Border Worlds, as they now call themselves, indicate they remain at peace with the Confederation -- but that Confed's bylaws and constitution no longer govern them. In response, the Great Assembly has decreed that Border Worlds vessels can no longer operate within Confed territory, unless under military escort."

This isn't Confed saying that the Border Worlds can leave - it's both sides posturing and waiting for the other to start the war. This is exactly how the exist of the Confederate states worked... with an insistance that neither side wanted war. Then we actually have Fort Sumter in space - a fight breaking out over a government installation that Confed thinks it should still own (the spacelab).

Everyone takes sides - the convoy you attack specifically says that it's breaking the edict because Confed took the station. The characters aren't subtle about this (Catscratch: Is... is this the way wars start? Blair: Wars are like bombs -- the fuse gets lit before you actually hear the bang. Sometimes the fuse is pretty long.) After that we have skirmishes over convoys and such all leading up to Manassas (oh, sorry, *Masa*) where the plucky Border Worlds militia manages to knock out the imposing Confed fleet.

 

[Delance]

I think the difference between the Border Worlds independence and the American Civil War and is that the secession itself wasn't considered enough to be a “casus belli” by Confed, and that the voting on the Declaration of War against the Border Worlds was based on the acts of violence and aggression, and not simply by their desire for independence.

My point is that if that would be enough to warrant war on its own, Tolwyn wouldn’t feel that the need to complex, costly ("incredible resources" as Blair describes it) and not to mention risky covert operation designed to simulate Border Worlds aggression against Confed. Why risk being exposed if it wasn’t absolutely necessary for his goal? As the leader of the SRA and the Black Lance, with his experience as a military leader, and the information and influence at his disposal, Tolwyn was in a unique position to calculate with precision what would take to move the Senate to war.

And what a close call that was. The Border Worlds were pretty much without a clue until Wilford told Blair to go to Axius and he stumbled upon Tolwyn in a black uniform. And even then it took a hard fight to actually convey all this information to the Senate.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I think the difference between the Border Worlds independence and the American Civil War and is that the secession itself wasn't considered enough to be a “casus belli” by Confed, and that the voting on the Declaration of War against the Border Worlds was based on the acts of violence and aggression, and not simply by their desire for independence.

My point is that if that would be enough to warrant war on its own, Tolwyn wouldn’t feel that the need to complex, costly ("incredible resources" as Blair describes it) and not to mention risky covert operation designed to simulate Border Worlds aggression against Confed. Why risk being exposed if it wasn’t absolutely necessary for his goal? As the leader of the SRA and the Black Lance, with his experience as a military leader, and the information and influence at his disposal, Tolwyn was in a unique position to calculate with precision what would take to move the Senate to war.

You just described the Civil War, though - the United States *didn't* (and wouldn't) go to war over secession alone (which... I just explained). Both sides spent months trying to manipulate the other into being responsible for the event that actually 'lead' to war. As in Wing Commander IV, that flashpoint ended up being ownership of a fortress in the disputed territory.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Tolwyn, or your unusual obsession therewith - we all know that his scheme had a variety of long-range objectives.

 

[Delance]

That's cute, but it's just that Tolwyn did know more about what was going on more than anyone else at that point. He knew everything the rest of Confed knew plus a lot they had no idea about. I wonder if the declaration of the Border Words as a coincidence or was actually precipitated by the covert actions.

That being said and slightly OT, is the movie "Gods and Generals" good for a historical perspective on the beginning of the war?

 

[Frosty]

That's cute

Ah good, you remembered your lessons from Douchebag 101.

Tolwyn did know more about what was going on more than anyone else at that point.

How is this in any way relevant to the discussion? It changes nothing of what LOAF said. "Oh, well I would be wrong, but wait! Here's some completely unrelated thing," is annoying.

That being said and slightly OT, is the movie "Gods and Generals" good for a historical perspective on the beginning of the war?

It's a stupid movie with insulting production values and a scope far too wide for its running length. As a followup to Gettysburg it's a disappointment.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Loathe as I am to inflict yet another Delance-turning-a-discussion-into-his-usual-flawed-tirade-about-Tolwyn-because-it-mentioned-WC4 on the world, this should probably be split back to the regular forum.

That's cute, but it's just that Tolwyn did know more about what was going on more than anyone else at that point. He knew everything the rest of Confed knew plus a lot they had no idea about. I wonder if the declaration of the Border Words as a coincidence or was actually precipitated by the covert actions.

Tolwyn has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. We're talking about the political situation between the two nations, not whatever your theory of the week about the Admiral is. Furthermore, you absolutely *do* know exactly why the conspiracy worked the way it did in the game - the false ignorance schtick isn't... "cute".

That being said and slightly OT, is the movie "Gods and Generals" good for a historical perspective on the beginning of the war?

No.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Loathe as I am to inflict yet another Delance-turning-a-discussion-into-his-usual-flawed-tirade-about-Tolwyn-because-it-mentioned-WC4 on the world, this should probably be split back to the regular forum..

I don't know why... but that made me chuckle... you are officially the Dr. Frasier Crane of Wing Commander.

Tolwyn has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. We're talking about the political situation between the two nations, not whatever your theory of the week about the Admiral is. Furthermore, you absolutely *do* know exactly why the conspiracy worked the way it did in the game - the false ignorance schtick isn't... "cute"..

Well we are making the comparison to between Confed and the BWS, and the US and the CS... Tolwyn... I don't know where he fits in (unless you count a certain supreme court justice who threw a tub of fuel on the fire by ruling that there were no free states) ... but Admiral Wilfred kind of reminds me (sort of) as General Lee.

No.

Seconded, Gods and Generals was not a fitting movie... honestly, even Gettysburg i thought left much to desire... for a good civil war movie... "loathe" as I am to supporting something so grosely liberal as this... Glory was hands-down the best and most accurate Civil War movie made.


In closing: PEOPLE!!! Peace on Earth!!! The last thing we need is another "Civil War" ... although since we are making so many comparisons... perhaps it would be Delance as the BWS and Loaf as Confed... just kidding guys

Oh yeah, btw... Standoff team, so far we have seen a few Exeters in the game... all of which have landing bays... are any (if not all of these) in fact Gettysburg class cruisers? Because that seems a bit more appropriate...