Here`s a new one.

[Vondoom]

I can agree with you Quarto that technically by the law Blair was a traitor, but in his heart he never betrayed what Confed stood for. As for Tolwyn Earthworm; get real. Tolwyn BELIEVED that it was for the good of the Confederation, but it was not good for the Confederation. Don't even begin to make excuses for the Social Darwinism and genetic elitism that the Black Lance stood for. I don't give a damn that Tolwyn wished that he didn't kill those people (I have the WC4 novel), the fact is that he did it. It only served Confed's interests in his tragically twisted mind. And if you think that what every thing the Black Lance stood for was nothing like Nazism and Hitler, then I feel really sorry for you. The whole premise was based off the SS and Nazism. His little "The Strong Must Surivive" speak is the exact same type of speech used by Hitler who twisted Nitche's beliefs to serve his own ends.
As for your reversal on great gameplay but bad story, I think you are wrong there. Look at Doom, Diablo, etc. Games with great gameplay generally outsell just about any other game. What makes WC great was its revoulutionary gameplay and graphics, what made it enduring was its story. As for people complaining that Prophecy didn't have enough story, only diehard fans like ourselves complained about the lack of story. MOst of the population at large was grateful for less story. And I'm sorry but the AI was far worse. I killed hundreds upon hundreds of bugs with ease on the hardest difficulty level and only needed to replay a few missions. I went through Prophecy faster than I did any other of the WC games. I mean there are enemy ships like that Lamprey for crying out loud that are pointless. Taking out Capships was a joke and very unrealistic too boot. The action was faster and there were more ships but the ships also died much much faster.

Most computer gamers will play games with no real story but that had wonderful gameplay. But no one will buy a guy that has horrible gameplay but a wonderful story.


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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

http://www.ntr.net/~vondoom

 

[Twister]

Towlyn betrayed everything that Confed stood for.

-That man has undermined EVERYTHING!

-Justice!

-You saw the risults.

-and i couln't go on!

-and it is YOU'RE fault!

-The Honourable, Admiral Tolwyn!

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twist·er (twstr): n. 1. One that twists, as in the manufacture of rope or yarn. 2. Sports. A ball thrown or batted with a twist. 3. Informal. A. A cyclone. B. A tornado. 4. Confed pilot, hero of the kilrathi war, renowned fleet admiral.

 

[Earthworm]

As for Tolwyn Earthworm; get real. Tolwyn BELIEVED that it was for the good of the Confederation, but it was not good for the Confederation. Don't even begin to make excuses for the Social Darwinism and genetic elitism that the Black Lance stood for.

Christ, I'm not trying to excuse what Tolwyn did. All I said is that by YOUR logic he was loyal to Confed.

And if you think that what every thing the Black Lance stood for was nothing like Nazism and Hitler, then I feel really sorry for you.

I never said such things BTW.

As for your reversal on great gameplay but bad story, I think you are wrong there. Look at Doom, Diablo, etc. Games with great gameplay generally outsell just about any other game.

I'm not refering to other games, but to WC in this little thread. Games like Diablo sell because of their gameplay and simplicity, it's easy to get into, plus it's extremly fun in multi. But a space sim with no story and great gameply/graphics won't sell. For example, Bang: Gunship Elite, one of the crapiest sims I've ever played. But it's basicly a shooter in space somewhat like Quake in space. It's graphics are out of this world, and the gameplay isn't that bad either, but the lack of story kills it.

MOst of the population at large was grateful for less story.

Not from my experience. I've been to many BB's, and news groups that deal with space sim, and Prophecy was often criticized for it's lack of story.

And I'm sorry but the AI was far worse. I killed hundreds upon hundreds of bugs with ease on the hardest difficulty level and only needed to replay a few missions.

So what? You can kill hundreds of enemy ships on the second highest level in WC4, but than again the hardest level in WC4 is too hard to get through every mission on it. So, what we have is better AI, but slightly unbalanced gameplay.

I went through Prophecy faster than I did any other of the WC games.

I can get through WC1/WC2 not including the add-ons fanster than Prophecy actually.

I mean there are enemy ships like that Lamprey for crying out loud that are pointless.

Maybe they're just there to distract you while your wingman get their asses kicked? If Confed could produce small and cheap fighters like that, and could spare pilots, than they would make them.

Taking out Capships was a joke and very unrealistic too boot.

Why is that? Being unable to take out capships with normal guns and missiles makes it more challenging then in WC1/WC3/WC4.

The action was faster and there were more ships but the ships also died much much faster.

Devil Rays didn't die faster, Mantas didn't die faster, Morays didn't die any faster than Dralthis...

Most computer gamers will play games with no real story but that had wonderful gameplay. But no one will buy a guy that has horrible gameplay but a wonderful story.

Most computer gamers will play games with great graphics, but no feel to them. It's said to see crapy games getting awards just because they look good.

 

[Vondoom]

Umm, actually by my logic I said Blair was loyal and Tolwyn wasn't. I never said Tolwyn was or ever alluded to him being loyal to Confed except in the most twisted bits of his mind. And you did say that Tolwyns' slaughtering of innocents was for the good of the Confederation. Actually Bang Gunship Elite has very crappy gameplay. XWing and Tie Fighter were both low on story and sold right up there with WC because of their very solid gameplay. Space Sims can sell well with little story. Anyway the market is in a slump right now (along with Adventure games) so comparisons are a little off the mark.
Again you are confusing BB's and newsgroups with the population at large. Only the most die hard fans post with any regularity on BB's and newsgroups. The average gamer who bought WCP bought it for its gameplay and was generally happy for less cutscenes. Die hard fans like ourselves on the other hand were not happy with the stripped down story. And I made it through WC4 on the highest level. And the kill counts are still different by almost a factor of 10 between WC4 and WCP. And don't even begin to defend the Lamprey. I actually stopped and let them attack me just to see if they could hurt me. Guess what, they didn't. No one would make a totally useless weapon that cannot hurt other ships. One burst almost always took them out and they never even scratched my paint once. And Killing capships was just as easy as in any of the other games except for WC2. I never sweated any mission taking out capships, they were begging to die quickly. And it doesn't make sense anyway. "Well men, the only way we can take out this ship is to destroy its engines then its bridge. Other than those two places it is impervious and our torpedoes are helpless. Attacks there should do more damage I agree but requiring it is just silly. Devil Rays did not die faster. Mantas and Morays though died super fast. And the only game I've even seen get lots of awards solely on its looks were Myst. Half-LIfe was huge because of its gameplay and enemy AI, not graphics. Dues Ex is a hit becasue of its gameplay, not graphics. Balder's Gate was a hit because of its gameplay, not graphics. And X-wing games were hits because of their gameplay, not graphics.

Quarto: While I agree with you technically by law he would be a traitor, your example is nothing like what is portrayed in the game. It would more be like a F-15 pilot shooting down a bomber that was going to nuke Iraq without the President of the United States approval. And he would not be considered a traitor despite the fact that he shot down his own people because he served his nations interests and not a rouge element in the military.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

http://www.ntr.net/~vondoom

 

[Earthworm]

Umm, actually by my logic I said Blair was loyal and Tolwyn wasn't.

You said that Blair was loyal by hear, even though he technicly was a triaitor. Tolwyn was also loyal to Confed. All his actions, all those terrible things he did were in his mind for the good of Confederation. In his heart he wanted to save Confed from loosing to some other aline race, that might be much more powerfull than the Kilrathi.

And you did say that Tolwyns' slaughtering of innocents was for the good of the Confederation.

No, I said that according to Tolwyn himself, it was for the good of the Confederation.

Actually Bang Gunship Elite has very crappy gameplay.

I wouldn't say that. It's not great, but I've seen far worse. And they bring on the challenge prety quickly, IIRC the second mission in the game was radicilously hard considering that it's just the second mission.

XWing and Tie Fighter were both low on story and sold right up there with WC because of their very solid gameplay.

Nope, they sold mostly because of the Star Wars name. No matter how crappy each SW game is, they always sell tons of copies.

Space Sims can sell well with little story.

Yes, but not unless they have the SW or ST name on the box.

Again you are confusing BB's and newsgroups with the population at large. Only the most die hard fans post with any regularity on BB's and newsgroups.

I doubt that. I've visited plenty of boards to see tons of opinions about Prophecy, and I've seen plenty of newbies on those boards, and on this one talking the same crap.

The average gamer who bought WCP bought it for its gameplay and was generally happy for less cutscenes.

There were people that though Prophecy was the best in the series, but there are also those average gamers who hated it for the lack of story. It's not just us die hard fans.

And I made it through WC4 on the highest level.

You've made it through WC4 on the highest difficulty level? Really?

And the kill counts are still different by almost a factor of 10 between WC4 and WCP.

But it's still unrealistic. Scoring over a hundred kills in less than two weeks is as much imposible as scoring a thousand.

And don't even begin to defend the Lamprey. I actually stopped and let them attack me just to see if they could hurt me. Guess what, they didn't. No one would make a totally useless weapon that cannot hurt other ships.

Maybe their not designed to take out fighters? The Remora drones that break of from the Ray cluster are useless against fighters, but they destroyed my AWACS ship plenty of times. Maybe the Lampreys are effective in packs agaisnt slower moving, less armed targets. Maybe they do make some additional damage to shields.

And Killing capships was just as easy as in any of the other games except for WC2. I never sweated any mission taking out capships, they were begging to die quickly.

BS. With the exception of WC2 you could kill capships using all yor weapons and by shooting wherever you wanted. Which means you could park behind a capships engine where no turrets could hit you and fire away.

And it doesn't make sense anyway. "Well men, the only way we can take out this ship is to destroy its engines then its bridge. Other than those two places it is impervious and our torpedoes are helpless. Attacks there should do more damage I agree but requiring it is just silly.

Why? If you want to take out a huge capship you don't just go shooting anywhere, you go after the most vital targets. We see some examples of that in the novels.

Devil Rays did not die faster. Mantas and Morays though died super fast.

Mantas aren't that week. They die about as fast as a Vaktoh in WC3, and the Morays die as fast as a Darket or Dralthi from WC3. Some of those fighters, Lampreys, Rays and Remoras, Squids, die fast, but not all of them.

Dues Ex is a hit becasue of its gameplay, not graphics.

I know, I've played it, but do you think it would be such a hit if it didn't have great graphics? Would WC3 sell over a million copies, if it's story and gameplay remained the same but the engine from WC1 was used?

And X-wing games were hits because of their gameplay, not graphics.

Like I said above, SW games, including X-wing were hits because of having that Star Wars name. I'm not saying that it didn't have good gameplay, but overall there was nothing special about it.

 

[Vondoom]

Actually I said that in his heart Blair never betrayed the ideals of Confed. Tolwyn might not have thought that he was btraying Confed but he seriously betrayed everything it stood for.

As for Bang Gunship, saying that you've seen far worse does not make it in anyway good.

You are correct when you say any game with the SW label will sell. However, gamers and critics all loved the X-wing series and Jedi Knight. They all had fantastic gameplay and the Xwing series more than any other is responsible for it being called the space-SIM games.

Elite sold like crazy and it had virtually no story.

Yes I did make it through WC4 on the highest level. Never said it was easy though. Then again I can't get through Half-life on medium difficulty without using cheat codes so go figure.

Scoring a hundred kills in less than two weeks is unrealistic but it is also at least 10 times more realistic than taking out a thousand.

Remora's can actualy damage you though if you let them and they are at least hard to hit occasionally. The Lamprey does absolutly nothing. Period.

Capships die far far too easy in the WC series (even WC2, though it is harder there). I never had a problem with taking out any capships in the series and I found that WCP was not any harder than in any previous game.

Of course you go after the vital targets Earthworm. But the game won't even allow a ship to be hurt unless you take out its Engines and bridge. That is not realistic.

Mantas are very weak as are morays. And there are simply too many rays, remoras, squids, lampreys, morays, etc. There should have been more DevilRays near the end of the game but you were lucky to be facing more than one at a time, two at most generally. Once again, WCPCrazy rules.

Dues Ex has been panned by alot of people (along with System Shock 2) for being BEHIND the graphics curve. WC on the other hand has almost always been at the very forefront of graphics technology.

And besides WC, no other space sim games have been as loved as the X-wing series. Don't get the fact that you don't think there is anything special about it confused with the fact that most people would put it up there with WC or higher (WC still tops for me though). In fact I have seen dozens of reader polls in which the highest ranking space sim game of all time is Tie Fighter, not WC3 (which by the population at large tends to regard as the high point in series).

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

http://www.ntr.net/~vondoom

 

[Mad Hatter]

Since the BW and Confed never actually declared war on each other officially, Blair didn`t really betray anyone.

 

[Earthworm]

Killing Confed fighters, and disabeling the Lexington would qualify as treason.

 

[Earthworm]

As for Bang Gunship, saying that you've seen far worse does not make it in anyway good.

Of course it doesn't. That's why I said what I did. It's gameplay would be about average.

Elite sold like crazy and it had virtually no story.

At the elite time, there was practicly no competition. So every Star Wars fan who even wanted to fly around the stars would get it.

Scoring a hundred kills in less than two weeks is unrealistic but it is also at least 10 times more realistic than taking out a thousand.

Yes, just as a Vampire having a normal fleet plasma gun is less realistic than a Vampire that has a fleet plasma ten times weaker.

The point is that both of them are unrealistic, and weather you get 100 kills or 1000 won't matter because it'll still be way to hight.

Remora's can actualy damage you though if you let them and they are at least hard to hit occasionally. The Lamprey does absolutly nothing. Period.

Anything can damage you if you let it. So if you go after the Remoras as fast as you go after the Lampreys, they won't hurt you either.

Capships die far far too easy in the WC series (even WC2, though it is harder there).

Yes, they do. But they die easier in WC1/WC3/WC4 than in Prophecy.

I never had a problem with taking out any capships in the series and I found that WCP was not any harder than in any previous game.

You must be blind then.

But the game won't even allow a ship to be hurt unless you take out its Engines and bridge. That is not realistic.

Why would the computer onboard a fighter or a bomber allow you to target something other than the vital targets? Who knows, maybe the capships do take some damage when you hit some other parts of the ship by accident. But the computers in your ship are to help you survive and cary out your mission, so they would target the most logical target.

Mantas are very weak as are morays. And there are simply too many rays, remoras, squids, lampreys, morays, etc. There should have been more DevilRays near the end of the game but you were lucky to be facing more than one at a time, two at most generally. Once again, WCPCrazy rules.

At least you can get two waves of 4 Devil Rays in SO.

Mantas are definetly not to weak. If you don't have access to the heavier fighters yet, they may be a pain at times.

Dues Ex has been panned by alot of people (along with System Shock 2) for being BEHIND the graphics curve. WC on the other hand has almost always been at the very forefront of graphics technology.

Wha? Both, Deus Ex and SS2 looked incredible when they were released.

 

[Vondoom]

As I said before Earthworm, I have sat completly still and let Lampreys attack me at will just to see if they could damage me. The most that ever happened was my shields dropping one level and then raising back up to max level. One remora can do more damage than 6 Lampreys. I have never seen a lamprey sucessfully damage anything. I do agree that SO does give more of the tougher enemies. Unfort. all the fighters are boosted so much that any advantage is quickly eliminated. Deus Ex was released after both Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament, both of which have far better graphics. Deus Ex even still has D3D problems that have been fixed forever. SS2 also had a dated engine. The games did not look bad in any way but they were nowhere near the graphical forefront for FP games.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

http://www.ntr.net/~vondoom

 

[Wedge009]

Alas, I think we revisit an old argument here.

Blair was/was not a traitor: we've had this before, and personally I don't feel he was one, but people only see the results of his actions, not his conscience. Remember Paladin's reaction when Tolwyn tells him the news.

Gameplay vs storyline: I reckon everyone has their own opinion. One of my friends really enjoyed the WC4 story, (so did everyone I guess), but another (non-'WC die-hard') friend said he was really bothered by the long FMV, and liked WC1 and 2 better.

 

[Wolf Dog]

Bothered by the long FMV? Does this person hate watching movies and TV too, or does he just not like plot in a game?

 

[Wedge009]

No, he'd just rather play the mission. Sometimes I agree, some of the WC4 cutscenes are quite long, but I do like some parts of the scene. It'd be nice if we could skip parts of the cutscene as we did in WC1 and 2 by pressing spacebar, instead of skipping the whole video when Esc is pressed.

 

[Death]

Alas, I think we revisit an old argument here.

Blair was/was not a traitor: we've had this before, and personally I don't feel he was one, but people only see the results of his actions, not his conscience. Remember Paladin's reaction when Tolwyn tells him the news.

Gameplay vs storyline: I reckon everyone has their own opinion. One of my friends really enjoyed the WC4 story, (so did everyone I guess), but another (non-'WC die-hard') friend said he was really bothered by the long FMV, and liked WC1 and 2 better.

While activities during and after Blair's defection to the UBW proved to ultimately be in the right, technically that was for a court to decide, which it did at Tolwyn's trial. Until that point, Blair was a traitor. There's a long history of case law supporting the concept that if one acts against the laws as written, those laws are what counts unless and until the courts say otherwise.

As Angel says in WC2 when grabbing Jazz's ejection pod at K'tithrak Mang 2, before Blair can blast the pod, "Justice is decided in the courts, not with particle beams."

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SubCrid Death
Official Net.Nazi, LOAF's Merry Guild