Oh, as a side note, the French Revolution was indeed started because of a tax revolt, but the excessive measures it took were thanks to the middle class making an attempt to weaken the nobility/royalty, while raising their own personal power. This isn't to say they were poor in any means, in fact, due to the fact that they were not needing to go to parties, etc. and spend their money, they were often times more wealthy than the nobility. The fact that the revolution came about, was more based upon radical ideas that they spouted, and fairness that wasn't ever given, even after the Revolution. (Which is why Napoleon took power in the beginning, the monarchy set up after the Revolution, as well as the Council during the Reign of Terror, often held down the people more than the former monarchy that was ousted at the start of the Revolution.)
Do you think it was correct that Confed destroyed Kilrah?
- Thread starter Jochen
- Start date
WildWeasel
Spaceman
Right. You were the one who restricted things to the games. I was talking about everything in the Wing Commander universe.
Lelapinmechant
Spaceman
Geesh, you're proud!
Skyfire: I've never argued that a war-time economy isn't strong. I've argued that in certain caste societies where there is an uneven distribution of wealth the lower class gets hit hard by the war effort. Like it or not, this was the case in imperialist France. As an aristrocrat, you would not have to have paid tax. They were exempt. Meaning it was not a good time to be a worker with subsistance-level employment. If Kilrah had such a social structure regardless of whether or not they had an overall strong economy(geesh!) there would be an economically disenfranchised CLASS(not government-- you're arguing about one, I'm arguing about another, so in short, we aren't arguing). If such a class existed, chances are they were dissenters, not believing in the empire. In other words, if what Wedge says is true, and there is an aristocracy, it was wrong to blow up Kilrah, because it may have had as many Kilrathi dissenters as it did pro-kilrathi soldiers and aristocrats.
Skyfire: I've never argued that a war-time economy isn't strong. I've argued that in certain caste societies where there is an uneven distribution of wealth the lower class gets hit hard by the war effort. Like it or not, this was the case in imperialist France. As an aristrocrat, you would not have to have paid tax. They were exempt. Meaning it was not a good time to be a worker with subsistance-level employment. If Kilrah had such a social structure regardless of whether or not they had an overall strong economy(geesh!) there would be an economically disenfranchised CLASS(not government-- you're arguing about one, I'm arguing about another, so in short, we aren't arguing). If such a class existed, chances are they were dissenters, not believing in the empire. In other words, if what Wedge says is true, and there is an aristocracy, it was wrong to blow up Kilrah, because it may have had as many Kilrathi dissenters as it did pro-kilrathi soldiers and aristocrats.
Re: Geesh, you're proud!
(Your right, I am proud-I'm a history buff, we have to be.
)
But in any event, while the nobles of France did not pay taxes, that does not mean that the Kilrathi didn't, as we've no real proof on either side of the coin as to whether they did. (But if they're building fleets, I'm sure they probably taxed their surfs, and would, most likely, be spending their own money as well.) There was disenfranchisement, true, in both Franch and probably the Kilrathi worlds, but being a worker and having your money spent on food/taxes, doesn't mean that the noble who (granted has food, and luxury, which would make his living conditions better than yours) had to spend his wealth on French: Parties/balls/ceremonial events, Kilrathi: Warships, military intelligence, is in a severely better position than you. (Ruling comes with responsibility after all, although I do agree that it would have been better to be a noble-at least then you HAVE the money to burn on these dumb parties, right?)
As to the Kilrathi dissenters, most Kilrathi were in favor of the war (you don't tend to have people who frown on such things, even if you are stressing your society, when your winning) for the most part, if the novels could really be believed. There were those who wanted the war ended yes (but that's not a good portion of the people), but more often there were those who wanted the war fought differently. These Kilrathi wanted the Terrans to be treated as equals (or at least non-prey), and the war to be fought as a war, not a VERY BIG hunt. (There was an assassination attempt at the Emperor by a faction that wanted the war ended, but it even states that they are a small group in one of the novels. ~Someone give me a hand in telling me which one. ~ While it was expressed that most of the Barons and the military just wanted Terrans treated as non-prey.)
(Your right, I am proud-I'm a history buff, we have to be.
)But in any event, while the nobles of France did not pay taxes, that does not mean that the Kilrathi didn't, as we've no real proof on either side of the coin as to whether they did. (But if they're building fleets, I'm sure they probably taxed their surfs, and would, most likely, be spending their own money as well.) There was disenfranchisement, true, in both Franch and probably the Kilrathi worlds, but being a worker and having your money spent on food/taxes, doesn't mean that the noble who (granted has food, and luxury, which would make his living conditions better than yours) had to spend his wealth on French: Parties/balls/ceremonial events, Kilrathi: Warships, military intelligence, is in a severely better position than you. (Ruling comes with responsibility after all, although I do agree that it would have been better to be a noble-at least then you HAVE the money to burn on these dumb parties, right?)
As to the Kilrathi dissenters, most Kilrathi were in favor of the war (you don't tend to have people who frown on such things, even if you are stressing your society, when your winning) for the most part, if the novels could really be believed. There were those who wanted the war ended yes (but that's not a good portion of the people), but more often there were those who wanted the war fought differently. These Kilrathi wanted the Terrans to be treated as equals (or at least non-prey), and the war to be fought as a war, not a VERY BIG hunt. (There was an assassination attempt at the Emperor by a faction that wanted the war ended, but it even states that they are a small group in one of the novels. ~Someone give me a hand in telling me which one.
~ While it was expressed that most of the Barons and the military just wanted Terrans treated as non-prey.)Originally posted by Skyfire
There was an assassination attempt at the Emperor by a faction that wanted the war ended, but it even states that they are a small group in one of the novels. ~Someone give me a hand in telling me which one.
I think it was Baron Jukaga that planned that assasination attempt in Fleet Action. But I could be wrong.
I appreciate the referance, I couldn't remember which novel it was in-but I think your right. As for the Baron, I also think that's accurate, as he was the one who most avidly understood the way human's work, and had the best concept of assassinations. (Although I can't remember what the faction of the priestess and the Kilrathi lord was about, which I also think was in that book, if someone can give some back up on that it'd be appreciated.)
Wedge009
Rogue Leader
Thrakhath makes a mention of Khasra attempting to murder the Emperor in WC2, then Khasra attempts to murder Thrakhath - doesn't seem like a very good assassin, does he? Still, if assassination is so removed from the Kilrathi psyche, why is it that Khasra's assassination attempts seem like the norm?
Still, if assassination is so removed from the Kilrathi psyche, why is it that Khasra's assassination attempts seem like the norm?What exactly is the difference between the Kilrathi engaging in "a very big hunt" and engaging in regular war? From what I saw it sure looked like they were warring.
I'm fairly sure the Victory Streak mentions that assassinations and coups are regular features of Kilrathi political life.
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
1) To treat the Terrans like worthy enemies and not like prey. I think that's what the more "liberal" Kilrathi wanted.
2) In one of the novels there's a mention, that they learned the concept of assassination from an alien race they conquered. And that they despise the concept (what doesn't mean that they don't see it its value).
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
The term came to the Kilrathi from the Hari (Fleet Action).
There were different factions of 'liberal' Kilrathi...
Jukaga (as his father before him) believed that humans had to be treated as equals if the war was to be won. They also believed that their clan, the Ki'ra, should have ruled the Empire.
Some believed simply that Thrakhath was running the war effort poorly -- that they could do a better job of fighting humans... this is what sparked the two post-FA assasinations.
Then there were even *more* liberal Kilrathi, like those at Ghorah Khar... who believed the Emperor's rule was unjust and that practices like slavery had to be abolished. They didn't necessarily have a love for the Confederation -- but they joined it because they needed to defend against the Empire.
There were different factions of 'liberal' Kilrathi...
Jukaga (as his father before him) believed that humans had to be treated as equals if the war was to be won. They also believed that their clan, the Ki'ra, should have ruled the Empire.
Some believed simply that Thrakhath was running the war effort poorly -- that they could do a better job of fighting humans... this is what sparked the two post-FA assasinations.
Then there were even *more* liberal Kilrathi, like those at Ghorah Khar... who believed the Emperor's rule was unjust and that practices like slavery had to be abolished. They didn't necessarily have a love for the Confederation -- but they joined it because they needed to defend against the Empire.
That's something that I kinda always found funny. (The multitide of different factions throughout the empire over this one subject, let alone others.) I just like the explination that the Kilrathi have to fight other races, and conquer/destroy them, so that they don't fight each other. (For some reason I always found that amusing, and was one of the storyline things that really made me "fear" the Kilrathi. After all, if all they do is fight each other-then they're damn experienced to kill us.)
Lelapinmechant
Spaceman
Was there an alternative?
Just wondering if anyone who believes the destruction of Kilrah was wrong could suggest an alternative. Part of what made the game(WCIII) interesting for me was that even though I had a gut feeling that destroying Kilrah was wrong, I couldn't see any other way to end the war...
Just wondering if anyone who believes the destruction of Kilrah was wrong could suggest an alternative. Part of what made the game(WCIII) interesting for me was that even though I had a gut feeling that destroying Kilrah was wrong, I couldn't see any other way to end the war...