Battlestar Galactica, anyone?

[Bob McDob]

Like I said, if I have to tell you why something with the word OPERA makes sense in conjunction to WAGNER, its lost on you.

I'm fairly certain that the term "space opera" was inspired by the early sci-fi pulp writings, not the other way around. It's a peculiar expression of English, not some kind of decree that all space war stories in cinema need to be accompanied by a certain genre of music.

(...and if I were to be especially anal about it, I could think of maybe two or three occasions of the above where the romantic-opera style of music was used to accompany a Germanic legend-type story, and one of them was directly inspired by the Ring. None of them had singing, though it would have been neat if one did.)

 

[LeHah]

I'm fairly certain that the term "space opera" was inspired by the early sci-fi pulp writings

More in the sense that both Opera and "Space Opera" have broad, sweeping characters in a romantic setting. That is - both situations pretty much demand said type of music, if just by the simplest of notion.

This isn't to say that you can't expand or experiment - but Bear's music on BSG routinely sounds knee-jerk and reactionary; its not that the music fits or is important - just the idea that they're doing something different is defense enough to merit taiko drums and uilleans and that doesn't fly with me.

 

[Toast]

More in the sense that both Opera and "Space Opera" have broad, sweeping characters in a romantic setting. That is - both situations pretty much demand said type of music, if just by the simplest of notion.

This isn't to say that you can't expand or experiment - but Bear's music on BSG routinely sounds knee-jerk and reactionary; its not that the music fits or is important - just the idea that they're doing something different is defense enough to merit taiko drums and uilleans and that doesn't fly with me.

Although the range of musical influences in BSG is so diverse as to feel discordant, I think it works on at least two levels. One, there are enough differences between the cultures of the 12 colonies. While they're all from the same "country" so to speak, I think it's appropriate in the sense that there isn't that much of a sense of togetherness among the refugees. While they may have been content to live apart before, they're all basically crammed together in a small space and what's left of home perhaps ought to feel a little unfamiliar without feeling alien. That, and they're traveling through areas of space that are basically unknown to them, away from a home they'll never see again. The journey's an unfamiliar one to everyone, so they're all in a land that should feel unfamiliar.

So I agree that the music doesn't just fly against expectations - the choices feel downright odd. Perhaps even more odd for the fact that you have gaelic (?) and japanese musical cues for characters who largely look and sound nothing like what you'd associate with those cultures. But while it might be jarring, I think it's actually very appropriate for the background to the story. The colonies are supposed to be like us, but not quite like us, after all, and the musical mis-fits are a strong enough reminder of that. I think that out-of-place world music works better here than something composed to sound deliberately alien or campy.


But if you don't like it, I could see why.

 

[LeHah]

One, there are enough differences between the cultures of the 12 colonies.

I live in America and the last time I heard Native American music was from an Italian in his 50s scoring a Burt Reynolds western. The idea that musical idiom as cultural identification is bizzare and unnessessary in this situation.

(There is an irony buried in the fact we moved from Wagner to cultural identification through music. Didn't he say that Jews can't have music since they don't have a national identity?)

But while it might be jarring, I think it's actually very appropriate for the background to the story.

No, it's not, since space has never equated a particular culture.

But if you don't like it, I could see why.

Stop being passive-aggressive.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The problem with the 'different' music (beyond trying too hard to be different) is that it's all from distinct cultures... for a society that doesn't *have* those cultures. When we play Gaelic folk music over soldiers fighting in Vietnam, it's to distinctly tie the situation to the past culture... when they do it on Battlestar Galactica it's because the guy making the episode thought it sounded cool in a movie.

The show also has the same problem with props and such - remember when they had the characters driving around in a Hummer? The producers insisted it was necessary because they couldn't afford to build a unique space tank car... but that's idiotic - just don't *write* a scene with an armor car.

 

[Toast]

Stop being passive-aggressive.

You're so easy to set off, LeHah. It's fun

 

[Toast]

The problem with the 'different' music (beyond trying too hard to be different) is that it's all from distinct cultures... for a society that doesn't *have* those cultures. When we play Gaelic folk music over soldiers fighting in Vietnam, it's to distinctly tie the situation to the past culture... when they do it on Battlestar Galactica it's because the guy making the episode thought it sounded cool in a movie.

The show also has the same problem with props and such - remember when they had the characters driving around in a Hummer? The producers insisted it was necessary because they couldn't afford to build a unique space tank car... but that's idiotic - just don't *write* a scene with an armor car.

True. There's an awful lot of... 'artiste' mentality going on behind the design of the show, and the podcasts give plenty of proof to that.

 

[Quarto]

The problem with the 'different' music (beyond trying too hard to be different) is that it's all from distinct cultures... for a society that doesn't *have* those cultures. When we play Gaelic folk music over soldiers fighting in Vietnam, it's to distinctly tie the situation to the past culture... when they do it on Battlestar Galactica it's because the guy making the episode thought it sounded cool in a movie.

This doesn't make any sense. Following your logic, we'd have to conclude that the only way BSG could have music at all would be if they invented something completely alien. After all, it would make just as little sense to use the kind of orchestral music that every other space opera uses, since there's no reason for the BSG people to have such music. So, the argument just plain doesn't work. It's a fictional setting, and if they felt that using ethnic music for different characters worked for them, then that's fine. Besides that, even had they done it only because it sounded cool (though it seems clear they had more than that in mind), there'd still be nothing wrong with that. WC was WWII in space because someone thought that would be cool - does that bother you?

The show also has the same problem with props and such - remember when they had the characters driving around in a Hummer? The producers insisted it was necessary because they couldn't afford to build a unique space tank car... but that's idiotic - just don't *write* a scene with an armor car.

...And also, don't write a scene with books (why would they have books?), or music, or characters from different ethnic backgrounds (if these people settle Earth later on, shouldn't they be uniformly the same colour, and then diversify on Earth? Or did this mixed population sort itself into ethnic groups upon arrival?), or... well, just don't write any kind of scene at all, since nothing from Earth makes sense in a galaxy-far-away setting.

I'm not a fan of BSG - I have watched the first three seasons, and I intend to watch the rest of the series, but I honestly have a hard time even grasping why I watch it. Very often, it's that watching-a-train-wreck feeling - I'm disgusted by what I see, but I wanna keep looking. So, I'm not trying to argue here that BSG is a great show and that you just don't see what makes it great. Nothing like that - I'm just bothered by the way you attack the show using exactly the kind of arguments you rail against, when they're used against the WC movie (e.g., it's ok for the WC movie to be WWII in space, because that's what the director wanted, merely because he thought it would be cool... but it's not ok for BSG to be Irish-people-in-space because that's what the director wanted merely because he thought it would be cool? Where's the logic?). There are plenty of legitimate reasons to dislike BSG - you don't have to go to such lengths to invent spurious ones.

 

[LeHah]

After all, it would make just as little sense to use the kind of orchestral music that every other space opera uses.

Either you haven't read this thread or you're simply instigating. I'm not sure which.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

This doesn't make any sense. Following your logic, we'd have to conclude that the only way BSG could have music at all would be if they invented something completely alien. After all, it would make just as little sense to use the kind of orchestral music that every other space opera uses, since there's no reason for the BSG people to have such music. So, the argument just plain doesn't work. It's a fictional setting, and if they felt that using ethnic music for different characters worked for them, then that's fine. Besides that, even had they done it only because it sounded cool (though it seems clear they had more than that in mind), there'd still be nothing wrong with that. WC was WWII in space because someone thought that would be cool - does that bother you?

You're intentionally ignoring my point in order to invent an argument and that's wrong. You know as well as I do that the problem isn't that Battlestar Galactica uses 'human' music throughout... it's the fact that on very specific occasions it switches away from the type of music the show was built around in order to make some cultural and emotional connection that shouldn't exist in its setting. (Most recent case in point - the fact that the robot agents are activated by 'All Along the Watchtower' is idiotic.)

I'm not a fan of BSG - I have watched the first three seasons, and I intend to watch the rest of the series, but I honestly have a hard time even grasping why I watch it. Very often, it's that watching-a-train-wreck feeling - I'm disgusted by what I see, but I wanna keep looking. So, I'm not trying to argue here that BSG is a great show and that you just don't see what makes it great. Nothing like that - I'm just bothered by the way you attack the show using exactly the kind of arguments you rail against, when they're used against the WC movie (e.g., it's ok for the WC movie to be WWII in space, because that's what the director wanted, merely because he thought it would be cool... but it's not ok for BSG to be Irish-people-in-space because that's what the director wanted merely because he thought it would be cool? Where's the logic?). There are plenty of legitimate reasons to dislike BSG - you don't have to go to such lengths to invent spurious ones.

Again, you're stretching a claim far beyond reason in order to create an argument.

Finding fault with Wing Commander's basic concept (though you can certainly do that) doesn't fall into the same category as criticizing the fact that Pegasus Station is full of CRTs that say 'Nokia' on them. Similarly, I wouldn't criticize BSG's setting in the same breath as I was complaining about the Space Hummer. The fact that there's ancient Greek colonies in space and they all love Space Democracy far beyond functional reason is something you accept (or don't accept) when first look at the show, not a fault you can find with how it has progressed. Wing Commander *does* have the same problem as the BSG Space Hummer, but they're the opposite of what you're insisting above - it's whenever it goes *away* from the 'World War II in Space' premise built into the series.

Also, I don't think I could (or *have*, which is more to the point) defended Wing Commander on an intellectual level. Nor has Wing Commander asked me to - WC is fairly simple designed-to-be-fun stories that are almost all relatively true to their fairly simple premise. They build a great setting that I love thinking about and 'living in'... but at the end of the day they aren't high art and don't claim to be. If anything, I love it for that reason alone. BSG claims to be the opposite... it's a popcorn show in the same way as Wing Commander is a simple game - but it's got creators and fans and internet wags insisting it's some incredibly complex drama and some brilliant commentary on everything under the sun. It aint so - I would enjoy BSG a heck of a lot more if it just admitted that it was as stupid as it is.

(You also ignore a major point in a single second - the problem isn't that BSG has Irish-people-in-space... it's that it made a big point of *not* having them and then five episodes later decided it wanted the emotional connection that came from connecting the characters to Irish culture.)

 

[Quarto]

Either you haven't read this thread or you're simply instigating. I'm not sure which.

If you're referring to all that stuff about Wagner, opera, space opera and all that, it's completely irrelevant to the point I was making - I wasn't referring to whether opera music is appropriate as a genre for space opera, but whether it's appropriate in a universe where, as far as we know, opera music may not exist at all. And more specifically, I was referring to the pointlessness of such arguments .

You're intentionally ignoring my point in order to invent an argument and that's wrong. You know as well as I do that the problem isn't that Battlestar Galactica uses 'human' music throughout... it's the fact that on very specific occasions it switches away from the type of music the show was built around in order to make some cultural and emotional connection that shouldn't exist in its setting. (Most recent case in point - the fact that the robot agents are activated by 'All Along the Watchtower' is idiotic.)

Actually, I never noticed that the show switches from one type of music to another - so, maybe I'm unobservant, but I'm definitely not ignoring anything intentionally . In any case, it's not unusual for TV shows to switch music style occasionally when it suits their purpose - so if that's what happens, I still don't see the issue with it.

(You also ignore a major point in a single second - the problem isn't that BSG has Irish-people-in-space... it's that it made a big point of *not* having them and then five episodes later decided it wanted the emotional connection that came from connecting the characters to Irish culture.)

Yes, but what's the problem with using Irish culture to create an emotional connection? My point is that any science fiction show will do such things a thousand times a minute, because it's impossible to create an alien setting that people would connect to. And in any case, it made a big point of not having the Irish - it never made a big point of not having Irish music (in the same way, it doesn't have the Greeks, merely the Greek gods). It literally is what you say it is - a way to create a specific emotional connection. It doesn't mean that all of a sudden, there are Irish people in BSG - it just means that the show's creators want you to think that the given character is somehow *like* the Irish.

BSG claims to be the opposite... it's a popcorn show in the same way as Wing Commander is a simple game - but it's got creators and fans and internet wags insisting it's some incredibly complex drama and some brilliant commentary on everything under the sun. It aint so - I would enjoy BSG a heck of a lot more if it just admitted that it was as stupid as it is.

While I agree with that (God, how I detested their stupid Iraq occupation commentary in particular), I just don't see how this has anything to do with the show's use of Irish music for a given purpose. I don't think the use of such music, regardless of whether it's done all through the show or for just one episode, is some great big flaw. If it's a flaw at all, I don't think it's one worth noticing.

(I'll make a more specific WC analogy: Irish music in BSG is like having fighters dip at the end of the runway in the WC movie - it doesn't make sense in the context of that universe, but it's done anyway, merely to advance the WWII-in-space feeling. And I'm quite certain you'd be willing to defend the movie on that count - either by dismissing this flaw as petty, or by suggesting possible reasons why a fighter in the WC universe might reasonably dip at the end of the runway)

 

[LeHah]

If you're referring to all that stuff about Wagner, opera, space opera and all that, it's completely irrelevant to the point I was making

And I thought LOAF told you to stop doing that.

I wasn't referring to whether opera music is appropriate as a genre for space opera

I don't think you understand what you're saying. The function of operattic music is that it generally involves heroes, gods and larger-than-life events in a romantic setting. Isn't that exactly the watered down bullshit that BSG serves up every week?

Even further, Wagner's music is well-remembered for being heavy with lietmotif (theres another, better term for it that ace told me, that escapes me at this time) - which is a musical signature or theme for a particular character or place. Doesn't having celtic music for Irish refugees play into that exactly?

but whether it's appropriate in a universe where, as far as we know, opera music may not exist at all.

But celtic, middle eastern and japanese music does?

And more specifically, I was referring to the pointlessness of such arguments

It obviously isn't pointless if I'm making points that you admit to ignoring, jerk.

 

[Toast]

You're intentionally ignoring my point in order to invent an argument and that's wrong. You know as well as I do that the problem isn't that Battlestar Galactica uses 'human' music throughout... it's the fact that on very specific occasions it switches away from the type of music the show was built around in order to make some cultural and emotional connection that shouldn't exist in its setting. (Most recent case in point - the fact that the robot agents are activated by 'All Along the Watchtower' is idiotic.)

Whoa, easy. I think maybe we're just talking past each other a little bit. There are some things that the show has done with the music that just beg for a nice, big, "wtf?!", most especially the "All Along the Watchtower" conceit. That definitely moves into the "wouldn't it be cool if" territory that you usually only inhabit after smoking something illegal.

But otherwise, I don't see what's so horrible about the music the show was originally built around. I didn't post it, but I think I was thinking along the same lines that Quarto was. If he's inventing an argument, then I did too, and I don't see how either of us is doing it just to instigate or invent an argument... that's just a perspective, and while it might be tangential to the original discussion, discussions do wander. I thought we were originally talking in more general terms about the music's fit with the show, and then you bring up the point of distinct and repeated instances of where the show goes artistically overboard or resorts to cheap emotional tricks. I think Quarto and I are talking about one (the general fit), and you're talking about the other (the artistic excesses or shortcuts). As the show has gotten progressively more full of itself, the excesses are becoming more egregious, so yeah, you absolutely have a point - but I think we're riding two slightly different trains of thought.

 

[Quarto]

Hehe, you must be really bored, LeHah, if you're willing to go to such extreme lengths to find something to argue about with me .

Point number one - I am *not* criticising the use of operatic music in BSG *at all*.

Point number two - I did indeed point out that one *could* criticise the use of operatic music in BSG, on the exact same grounds that one could criticise the use of Celtic, Japanese, or any ethnic music at all - that it's something that simply doesn't exist in the BSG universe. I was *not* however, saying this as an argument against operatic music, but merely to point out that neither Irish nor operatic music is more or less appropriate than the other from the perspective of which is more likely to exist in the BSG universe.

Point number three - none of this has anything to do with the music's function, or with BSG's genre, or any of the stuff you were talking about.

Now, if you want to actually address anything at all that I wrote, by all means do so - but if you just want to keep chopping up my posts into half-sentence quotes in a desperate search to find more reasons to call me a jerk... really, you don't have anything better to do with your time?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Actually, I never noticed that the show switches from one type of music to another - so, maybe I'm unobservant, but I'm definitely not ignoring anything intentionally . In any case, it's not unusual for TV shows to switch music style occasionally when it suits their purpose - so if that's what happens, I still don't see the issue with it.

Wait... so you *don't* know the particular instance we're talking about, but you're still completely willing to jump in and defend it as an artistic choice for some reason? And you're surprised that LeHah is angry at you?

(I'll make a more specific WC analogy: Irish music in BSG is like having fighters dip at the end of the runway in the WC movie - it doesn't make sense in the context of that universe, but it's done anyway, merely to advance the WWII-in-space feeling. And I'm quite certain you'd be willing to defend the movie on that count - either by dismissing this flaw as petty, or by suggesting possible reasons why a fighter in the WC universe might reasonably dip at the end of the runway)

I'm pretty sure I'm willing to attack the movie on that point, for exactly the opposite reason - having the fighters fall off the flight deck makes sense in the setting, but it was a very poor choice for a mass audience. It was a case of the movie being *so* into its concept (World War II in space) that it forgot regular people were watchingit.

The sequence we're talking about in BSG is the opposite - everything goes to slow motion and Irish music suddenly playing to tell us to be sad. That's breaking away from the show's conceptual reality in order to force the viewer to have the desired emotional reaction. It's not something built towards in the show. My complaint is that it's a microcosm of exactly what's wrong with the show - it uses very cheap, very unoriginal tricks in order to convince the audience that it's especially smart and emotional.

 

[Quarto]

Wait... so you *don't* know the particular instance we're talking about, but you're still completely willing to jump in and defend it as an artistic choice for some reason? And you're surprised that LeHah is angry at you?

Yes, on both counts - yes, I'm surprised LeHah is angry at me, because he's getting angry trying to argue with me over a subject that I never even touched. And yes, I'm willing to jump in and defend it without knowing the particular instance, because I just don't think it's a big deal, regardless of the circumstances. I mean it happened in one of the episodes that I did watch - so if I didn't notice it, it can't possibly have been as jarring or universe-breaking as you make it out to be.

The sequence we're talking about in BSG is the opposite - everything goes to slow motion and Irish music suddenly playing to tell us to be sad. That's breaking away from the show's conceptual reality in order to force the viewer to have the desired emotional reaction. It's not something built towards in the show. My complaint is that it's a microcosm of exactly what's wrong with the show - it uses very cheap, very unoriginal tricks in order to convince the audience that it's especially smart and emotional.

Well, yes, BSG certainly is all that (though I wonder, to what degree is it the show's creators that are pushing it as a "smart" show, and to what degree is it fans trying to read too much into it? This isn't a rhetorical question, mind you, I really am wondering - not being in the US, I've been able to watch BSG in an isolated way, without ever being subjected to any of the hype surrounding the show, so I don't how what its creators have to say about it). But, the show as a whole is not the subject here. Even if the Irish music, as you argue, is representative of hundreds of other similarly cheap tricks, I have a hard time seeing why this particular, rather insignificant trick should bother anyone, no matter how bad the show as a whole gets. As I said, I didn't even notice it... and given that I've only ever seen a few people here at the CZ complaining about it (the rest of the CZ's BSG watchers seeming oblivious to it), I don't think I'm an exception. It's just not a big deal - to be honest, I get the impression you're being extra-hard on this show just because of the way its fans treat it.

 

[LeHah]

Yes, on both counts - yes, I'm surprised LeHah is angry at me, because he's getting angry trying to argue with me over a subject that I never even touched.

And much like the punch line to the joke about the guy who prays every day at the Kotel - "Its like talking to a wall".

And yes, I'm willing to jump in and defend it without knowing the particular instance, because I just don't think it's a big deal

It sounds to me you're arguing for arguement's sake then. (I'm not sure if thats trolling or not?)

to be honest, I get the impression you're being extra-hard on this show just because of the way its fans treat it.

Well, to be fair, LOAF responds to stupid people of every type, creed and color.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Yes, on both counts - yes, I'm surprised LeHah is angry at me, because he's getting angry trying to argue with me over a subject that I never even touched.

The fact of the matter is that you joined a thread that was discussing whether or not the different musical styles in BattleStar Galactica were positive or negative... *without having ever noticed them*. For all his faults, the view from here is that you were specifically trying to pick a fight with LeHah. You can't possibly feign much surprise that he (especially) reacted negatively when you interrupted his holding court to offer... no informd insight at all.

And yes, I'm willing to jump in and defend it without knowing the particular instance, because I just don't think it's a big deal, regardless of the circumstances. I mean it happened in one of the episodes that I did watch - so if I didn't notice it, it can't possibly have been as jarring or universe-breaking as you make it out to be.

It can't possibly be jarring? Because everyone has to have the same reaction to everything? Because you're somehow a completely perfect critic while no one else posting to this thread is? The things you're saying don't make sense.

Well, yes, BSG certainly is all that (though I wonder, to what degree is it the show's creators that are pushing it as a "smart" show, and to what degree is it fans trying to read too much into it? This isn't a rhetorical question, mind you, I really am wondering - not being in the US, I've been able to watch BSG in an isolated way, without ever being subjected to any of the hype surrounding the show, so I don't how what its creators have to say about it).

The 'hype' around the show is very much hand fed to the masses by the creators - they built an entire network of podcasts, downloadable commentaries, pre-aire interviews and so forth dedicated to convincing everyone that the show was edgy and intelligent instead of stupid and obvious. (To their credit, the fans aren't really buying this anymore - more than I've seen in similar situations before people have turned against the show for being pretentious in the recent season or two...)

But, the show as a whole is not the subject here. Even if the Irish music, as you argue, is representative of hundreds of other similarly cheap tricks, I have a hard time seeing why this particular, rather insignificant trick should bother anyone, no matter how bad the show as a whole gets.

Because it was an *example* which related to the subject we were discussing (the show's music). If we were talking about the show's politics we could talk about the nonsensical and pained Iraq allegory, if we were talking about its special effects we could talk about the shakeycam that stops you from ever seeing space combat, if we were talking about what an excellent drama it is we could talk about how every single twist is that another main character is a space robot... but we were discussing *music*. It's one of many things that stands out as cheap about the show to me. Your post doesn't even make sense here - something can only be entirely good or entirely bad, never have specific flawed or excellent elements? That would be an odd restructuring of debate itself.

As I said, I didn't even notice it... and given that I've only ever seen a few people here at the CZ complaining about it (the rest of the CZ's BSG watchers seeming oblivious to it), I don't think I'm an exception.

That's incredibly poor logic - you can't possibly know whether or not other CZers know what we're talking about and you can't possibly assume that their not posting to this specific thread at this specific time means they automatically agree with you. (Everyone else discussing the topic right know has made reference to the sequence - LeHah, Bob, Toast, myself... so I'm not sure who these oblivious masses are, in the context of the CZ.)

It's just not a big deal - to be honest, I get the impression you're being extra-hard on this show just because of the way its fans treat it.

Then you have the wrong impression - a quick look back at our history should show that I was being extra-hard on the show the night the pilot movie aired before it had any fans. The show and what it means to the future of science fiction fandom does bother me for all sorts of reasons... but most of those are outside whether or not the music is flawed.

 

[AD]

I've seen every episode so far and can't say I care about the music one way or another. The music, even if it does have a lot of variation, I don't hear it, and it tends to seem repetitive to me, as if they recycle the same songs for every episode. As for changeing styles, I really don't remember any irish funeral music but I might notice it if I had a reference to which episode. I tend to not try and remember.

I actually thought the show was the worst from about halfway through season two untill they finally left "new caprica" in season three. From there it almost felt like the show was trying to be entertaining again, but the season finalle which seems to be the focus of this discussion was terrible, and mostly *because* of that song.

I've heard fans speculating about how it's not a activation signal but rather maybe some subtle (or not so) clue about how close they are to earth and that they are however many lightyears away from earth at present time that that song is old, But that's still all bullshit to me, and I'll tell you why.

If it's somehow radio, why are they hearing the same song, or even the same song over and over and over? No song I know of gets that kind of play time. Why would it lead them into the same room at the end of the episode? So it is some kind of activation (unless they only *think* they are cylons) I wouldn't put it past the producers that this "twist" isn't the actual twist and they aren't cylons but then why the song and dance (hehe)? What's the point? The song no matter how you view it was done entirely wrong. When you figure out which song it is it certainly isn't some amazing reveal it's just plain painfull. And if it's really true, then what the hell was the point of the first three seasons? WOW, a human-like Cylon was Fucking another Human-Like Cylon!!!! Any point those early scenes had are now completely lost. You would think they would be able to tell.

 

[Quarto]

The fact of the matter is that you joined a thread that was discussing whether or not the different musical styles in BattleStar Galactica were positive or negative... *without having ever noticed them*. For all his faults, the view from here is that you were specifically trying to pick a fight with LeHah. You can't possibly feign much surprise that he (especially) reacted negatively when you interrupted his holding court to offer... no informd insight at all.

But... I only discussed that one specific point you made. I never even touched the specific stuff LeHah was talking about - and not because I was trying to ignore him, but because I had nothing to disagree with there. Heck, even if I had for some reason been ignoring LeHah on purpose, though I certainly wasn't... it boggles me that anybody could possibly come to the conclusion that not talking to somebody could be interpreted as trying to pick a fight with him. Nor did I interrupt anything - how could my post addressed to you ever affect LeHah's own ongoing conversation? Many, many threads involve multiple conversations that have no bearing on each other...

It can't possibly be jarring? Because everyone has to have the same reaction to everything? Because you're somehow a completely perfect critic while no one else posting to this thread is? The things you're saying don't make sense.

Please don't misinterpret what I say just to make me out into some egotistical maniac . I said it can't possibly be as jarring as you make it out to be. I'm not a completely perfect critic, and I certainly don't think my point of view is more valuable than yours or LeHah's or anybody else's - but if I watched a show, and I didn't even notice at all something that you seemed to imply was some huge hole in the show's logic... then I can only conclude it can't have been as huge as you claim. Not because my particular failure to notice is somehow hugely important, but because if it was a problem as big as you seemed to suggest, then everyone would have noticed.

Your post doesn't even make sense here - something can only be entirely good or entirely bad, never have specific flawed or excellent elements? That would be an odd restructuring of debate itself.

No... what I was getting at is that you appear to be suggesting that the Irish music is especially terrible because of the hundreds of other flaws that add up to make BSG an irritating show. In other words, that the Irish music wouldn't bother you as much if it was in an otherwise good show, but because it was in BSG on top of all those other things, then somehow it becomes excruciatingly painful.

That's incredibly poor logic - you can't possibly know whether or not other CZers know what we're talking about and you can't possibly assume that their not posting to this specific thread at this specific time means they automatically agree with you. (Everyone else discussing the topic right know has made reference to the sequence - LeHah, Bob, Toast, myself... so I'm not sure who these oblivious masses are, in the context of the CZ.)

I certainly can know, based on previous threads discussing this subject. This isn't the first time you're complaining about BSG's music, you know .