Administration policies

[Mad Hatter]

This post is especially directed towards LOAF, and let me start by saying that I don`t care what you do about it, I just wanted everyone to see it.

One of the reasons I have stopped posting on a regular basis here, even though I do have more time on my hands now, is that, frankly, I am sick and tired of the way things are handled here in the CZ by the administration and the moderators. You can`t start a discussion unless the majority agrees with you. 90% of the more intersting topics, here, are taboo, and are not allowed to be discussed. The administration`s policy, for example, concerning the mere talk about abandonware or warez is rediculous.

Another example is the recent closing of "freespace vs. WCP sales" topic. Most of the flaming there came from LOAF himself, calling Pedro "fucking stupid". Might I add that in this case, Pedro is absolutly correct. I have never heared any two things being compared exponentially, since there is no real meaning to it.

Topics are being closed down as if the world itself was coming to an end. You are all forgeting that in the last year, there has been a huge increase in the number of members, and that most of them haven`t been around to witness or participate in discussions that are not allowed to be spoken of anymore.

People come here to talk about WC, but along the way they start to make friends here, and sometimes wish to talk about things other than that: To share feelings and experiences that are not only WC related. This is usually, lately in particular, looked upon without a great deal of tolerence.
I don`t undestand what you`re trying to create here. I can name at least one other game related message board that, although having only a quarter of the number of members here, has no problem discussing anything and everything, and it`s really a pleasant and cozy place to talk to other people. There`s no flaming, everyone is civilized, and tolerence is of the highest values.

Whenever I come here I get the feeling I have entered some 3rd world dictatorship, and it sickens me to the stomach.

Now, you can do whatever you want with this topic. Most likely you`ll simply erase it or tell me that if I have reservations on administrative policies I should email someone, but I just want this to come out in the open, and not be laughed at in some mailbag update.

 

[Ghost]

Yes, you made valid points, i agree with you in the most part of your post.

 

[Jezzerr]

Originally posted by Ghost
Yes, you made valid points, i agree with you in the most part of your post.

I'm afraid to say that I too agree with most points raised by Mad Hatter.

The degeneration of the "wc fans not liking freespace" thread was not only childish (e.g. LOAF's rant at the end) but gave me a headache with the math

Now I don't propose to tell anyone how too run this board, however a little more tolerance wouldn't go amiss??

 

[Napoleon]

Ya know at the risk of loosing all my posts, again for that matter, or being banned, once again again, i must agree as well, it is not that I do not like the admins, cuz i have nothing against them, but they have gone overboard on numerous occasions.

 

[Skyfire]

Having read this, I can see where your coming from, and it is nice to see it laid out in a format that is both intelligent, as well as professional. However, I can't honestly say that I'm one to side with you on this one.

In concern to the topic of warez and the like, the Admin has a good reason to keep talk of it isolated, or to remove it. After all, most of these programs ARE illegal, and the site doesn't want to be reknown as advocating the use/advertisement of such programs.

As for LOAF's comments, while it is true that I do see how it was harsher than it should have been, one must also give LOAF the credit of expressing his own opinion (even if, I'll guess, it was based more upon frustration than anything else). I read all the WC/Freespace topic, and I too admit that it...degenerated...from what it could have been. Yet, these things happen when you have people who are advocates of a certain point-of-view, and is not going to change. If you have complaints over a person's actions, just remember that I'm sure there are some to yours as well. It's something that happens to everyone. (I know I was ripped on at least half a dozen times in my first day, let alone my first week!) ~And I do think that a personalized e-mail would have been more effective, but I can understand your point in trying to get this out in the open~

*Try to remember that Rule # 3 was made in specific referance to things such as the Freespace/WC thread. ~Although I do think LOAF violated rule # 5. ~

I come to the site a couple times a day for new topics, and I've not seen a myriad come to a close. If they have, the ones I've seen, have been for legal reasons. (The one where it was simply an attempt to bash on LOAF and say that "wing commander sucks because I'm using LOAF's brain", I believe is what was said. That's simply blatantly pointless, as per rule # 10)

As for the other boards/tyranny of this one. I do hate to say it, but the Admins have the right to do their job as they see fit, even if there are times when we don't like the way they perform it. (I know I sure don't, at times.) But I don't see this as some form of oppressive regime. (They did close the thread after LOAF's outburst, thus proving that even they're not immune.) I see it as them doing their jobs as they see fit, and not having too many-nor outrageous-rules for their board. Thus moving to the obvious quote of "if you don't like the way things are run, don't involve yourself with it". However, if you like the WC universe enough to still involve yourself, I ask you to please, still do. Consult the Admins, try to work things out, then-if it doesn't work-make your decision on how to proceed. This thread wasn't a bad idea, but I certainly hope you e-mailed them as well, it's a better way to try to make your voice heard when doing a person-to-person explination.

 

[KrisV]

Originally posted by Mad Hatter
One of the reasons I have stopped posting on a regular basis here, even though I do have more time on my hands now, is that, frankly, I am sick and tired of the way things are handled here in the CZ by the administration and the moderators. You can`t start a discussion unless the majority agrees with you. 90% of the more intersting topics, here, are taboo, and are not allowed to be discussed. The administration`s policy, for example, concerning the mere talk about abandonware or warez is rediculous.

(Obligatory "The Zoners are revolting!" joke goes here)

Our policy on warez is clearly stated in the Rules & Regulations, and you have to read and accept those when you sign up. New rules are always publically announced, so they're hard to miss. If you disagree with them so passionately that you can't live by them, you simply shouldn't be posting here. Those are the rules we choose to uphold. You're free to disagree with them, as long as you respect them and don't complain about them publically.

As for your other points, if you have a problem with an individual, you should first try to sort things out individually. Either by e-mailing the person, or by e-mailing all of the administration at chatzone@. If that doesn't help or has an averse effect, you can still run the risk of having an outburst on the board.

 

[No Regret]

I'll have to agree with Mad Hatter here. It's much the same reason that I have stopped actively participating in the discussions here.

 

[Cpl Hades]

One of the reasons I have stopped posting on a regular basis here, even though I do have more time on my hands now, is that, frankly, I am sick and tired of the way things are handled here in the CZ by the administration and the moderators. You can`t start a discussion unless the majority agrees with you. 90% of the more intersting topics, here, are taboo, and are not allowed to be discussed. The administration`s policy, for example, concerning the mere talk about abandonware or warez is rediculous.

If the majority doesn't agree with you on a subject, then the whole thread quickly turns in to a mass of insults and general stupidity. The Freespace thread is a prime example of this. Abandonware and warez are the exact same thing, and are illegal. We don't have some amazing hosting contract that allows us to do whatever we like, we have to keep things legal. Besides that, illegal copies of games have been hampering Wing Commander since day one. We could very well be sitting waiting for another WC game to be released now if EA knew how many people are interested, and they *would* know if every copy in existance was bought.

Another example is the recent closing of "freespace vs. WCP sales" topic. Most of the flaming there came from LOAF himself, calling Pedro "fucking stupid". Might I add that in this case, Pedro is absolutly correct. I have never heared any two things being compared exponentially, since there is no real meaning to it.

Since your problem here is with LOAF, I suggest you take it to personal email here, but I would like to point out that LOAF apologised to the starter of that thread privately.

Topics are being closed down as if the world itself was coming to an end. You are all forgeting that in the last year, there has been a huge increase in the number of members, and that most of them haven`t been around to witness or participate in discussions that are not allowed to be spoken of anymore.

This is funny. Of the most recent *40* threads, only *4* have been closed. Two had degenerated in to stupidity, one was related to warez, and one was a blatent attempt at starting a flamewar.

People come here to talk about WC, but along the way they start to make friends here, and sometimes wish to talk about things other than that: To share feelings and experiences that are not only WC related. This is usually, lately in particular, looked upon without a great deal of tolerence.

It is normal for threads to drift off-topic. That's fine. But when they start getting abusive or just a lot of fooling around, we close them. We'd love to have a lot of pointless crap floating around, but people forget that we don't have an infinite amount of bandwidth and bandwidth isn't cheap.

Whenever I come here I get the feeling I have entered some 3rd world dictatorship, and it sickens me to the stomach.

If you come here to post nonsense, find somewhere else. If you come here to chat about Wing Commander, there isn't a problem.

Now, you can do whatever you want with this topic. Most likely you`ll simply erase it or tell me that if I have reservations on administrative policies I should email someone, but I just want this to come out in the open, and not be laughed at in some mailbag update.

This thread *does* break the rules and so we'd be well within our rights to close it. I don't enforce the rules as strictly as some of my fellow administrators, and when that Freespace thread was posted, against my better judgement, I left it open. I now regret it. Once again, against my better judgement, for now I'll leave this thread open. *Don't* make me regret this one.

 

[NoRemorse]

Peace, guys...
In my opinion, LOAF (and the others) are moderators... I have to accept what he and they do, that's all... or it will be an actual mess...

 

[Bandit LOAF]

First, a fact -- we don't ban people much. We yell at them, we change their ranks, we do whatever, but we don't ban them.

Now allow me to get this completely straight.

Your problem is that, by posting regularly, you *might* get *made fun of*? And you think that the *best* way to get treated nicely at the CZ is, instead of just to be a normal, sane poster is to BREAK THE RULES AND TROLL THE BOARD? The logic part of your brain is missing, people.

If you don't want to be made fun of, do one of the following:

A) Do not post at all. Do not visit the CZ. This will save us money, and we will be happy because we can buy more tubes of monkeys.

B) Do not post anything stupid. It can't be *that* hard. An example of 'something stupid' would be *EVERYTHING IN THIS THREAD*. Including my post, for taking this seriously.

Mind you that none of these things will help keep you from being made fun of -- the best thing you can do to avoid this is to turn off your computer and stay the hell away from the internet. 98% of concent on the internet is people making fun of eachother. The CZ is far below the curve.

It's a chat board about a series of video games and does not, in any way shape or form, merit such complaints.

 

[Mad Hatter]

To begin with, aside from a minor incident over a year ago, I haven`t had any personal bad experience with anyone on this board, and if anyone cares to run a scan through all my posts in the last year and a half you`ll not find a single post that`s nonesense or suffers from lack of intelligence.

Second, I don`t mind being laughed at every now and again, although what has been done to Mav in recent posts by members like LeHah is nothing more than pure character assasination. I was simply reflecting on the way the mailbag update works:
Someone sends a letter and then all the admins combine forces and disect the letter sentence by sentence until there`s nothing left of it, all the while making the guy who wrote it look like a complete idiot. Way to go guys.

The mere fact that people here have to begin a post using words like: "I`m afraid I have to agree with..." and "I`ll probably be banned for this..." and posting subjects like "this might be a stupid question..." proves my point on lack of tolerence.

I`m not telling you how to run this CZ. It`s your prerogative to make up any rules you want and enforce them however the hell you choose. I`m talking about the simple fact that the atmosphere of this place resembles a 3rd world dictatorship.
People are simply afraid to post their true feelings about things, not from fear of being laughed at, but from being banned.
You may not ban a whole lot of people, but how do you explain the constant talk about it? Even if you`re only joking, it`s really not that funny to begin with.

As for warez and abandonware, this was simply an example, and I will not go into my views on the subject. Talking about it, except for posting URLs, doesn`t mean anything illegal is being done in the same way that talk about drugs, which appears on the board every now and then, doesn`t mean anyone is going to go out and buy -or worse yet, sell- any. I will not talk of this again, I just wanted to get my point across.

Notice how both my posts have been civilized. It`s not that hard to talk about something in a civilized way, even if it`s an extremely controversial topic. All you need to do is set an example like Quarto used to do in the old days. No need to intimidate everybody all the time.

 

[KrisV]

Originally posted by Mad Hatter
I was simply reflecting on the way the mailbag update works:
Someone sends a letter and then all the admins combine forces and disect the letter sentence by sentence until there`s nothing left of it, all the while making the guy who wrote it look like a complete idiot. Way to go guys.

Yeah, the mailbag is a lot of fun. But what does that have to do with our Chat Zone policies? Can you point out a mailbag item that was a serious e-mail to the CZ Administration? I don't think so. I you want to complain about the Mailbag, complain about the mailbag.

The mere fact that people here have to begin a post using words like: "I`m afraid I have to agree with..." and "I`ll probably be banned for this..." and posting subjects like "this might be a stupid question..." proves my point on lack of tolerence.

It's not at all uncommon for CZ or Usenet posts to begin "This might be a stupid question". Aside from the occasional twit hardly anyone is ever banned. There are currently 19 banned accounts, shared by about 6 people. It's not our fault that people imagine things.

I`m not telling you how to run this CZ. It`s your prerogative to make up any rules you want and enforce them however the hell you choose. I`m talking about the simple fact that the atmosphere of this place resembles a 3rd world dictatorship.
People are simply afraid to post their true feelings about things, not from fear of being laughed at, but from being banned.
You may not ban a whole lot of people, but how do you explain the constant talk about it? Even if you`re only joking, it`s really not that funny to begin with.

Again, it's not our fault that some people have an over-active imagination.

As for warez and abandonware, this was simply an example, and I will not go into my views on the subject. Talking about it, except for posting URLs, doesn`t mean anything illegal is being done in the same way that talk about drugs, which appears on the board every now and then, doesn`t mean anyone is going to go out and buy -or worse yet, sell- any. I will not talk of this again, I just wanted to get my point across.

That rule has to be that strict because otherwise things might get out of hand before a moderator or administrator has a chance to step in.

Notice how both my posts have been civilized.

You still should have e-mailed.

 

[LeHah]

Originally posted by Mad Hatter
Second, I don`t mind being laughed at every now and again, although what has been done to Mav in recent posts by members like LeHah is nothing more than pure character assasination.

Hardly. Mav walks into the room of stupidity on his own. I meerly point it out to him and, thusly, point him to the door of NO STUPIDITY.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Second, I don`t mind being laughed at every now and again, although what has been done to Mav in recent posts by members like LeHah is nothing more than pure character assasination.

You should e-mail me about this -- contrary to popular belief, I don't read every post. In fact, if a post isn't blatantly trolling, a request for help or a post about the Wing Commander universe I generally ignore it. That includes all those 'in-joke' type threads among regulars (and, quite honestly, I ignore just about everything LeHah posts)... if people are character assasinating eachother in an uninteresting thread, I probably don't know about it.

Someone sends a letter and then all the admins combine forces and disect the letter sentence by sentence until there`s nothing left of it, all the while making the guy who wrote it look like a complete idiot. Way to go guys.

This tactic is reserved only for e-mails that are really, really stupid to begin with -- not serious complaints. On the rare occasion that people bother to follow the rules and e-mail the admins, I treat them very kindly and respectfully. When someone e-mails me that they're going to WRIP MY AS OFF!!!!!, I'll make fun of it <G> This system works allright, in my opinion.

The mere fact that people here have to begin a post using words like: "I`m afraid I have to agree with..." and "I`ll probably be banned for this..." and posting subjects like "this might be a stupid question..." proves my point on lack of tolerence.

That is, in all fairness, a pretty petty complaint -- I think a precursory examination will reveal that such openers are a staple of every online community <G> You'll find them at any board or newsgroup -- even places like AGWC (or here, frankly) where you can't be banned. It's a 'cute' way of starting a post.

I`m not telling you how to run this CZ. It`s your prerogative to make up any rules you want and enforce them however the hell you choose. I`m talking about the simple fact that the atmosphere of this place resembles a 3rd world dictatorship.
People are simply afraid to post their true feelings about things, not from fear of being laughed at, but from being banned.
You may not ban a whole lot of people, but how do you explain the constant talk about it? Even if you`re only joking, it`s really not that funny to begin with.

Again, if people are afraid of something, they need to *TELL* us -- in private. From my perspective, it's very, very, very (very) difficult to tell what people want... if the majority don't speak out, it will always seem like some disgruntled freak who's complaining. (Because we have those -- someone will e-mail us saying they hate us because we moved their fan project thread to the fan project zone or somesuch).

Notice how both my posts have been civilized. It`s not that hard to talk about something in a civilized way, even if it`s an extremely controversial topic. All you need to do is set an example like Quarto used to do in the old days. No need to intimidate everybody all the time.

I would disagree on the first -- polite, but not civlized, since civilization involves following the rules <G>

 

[Unforgiven]

I you think the CZ is bad, you should visit alt.startrek. Upon your return here, you'll think the CZ is heaven.
The great advantage of messageboards like this one still is that the real trolls, the people who only bash the subject, can't find it!

 

[Zim]

People,

Mad Hatter,

I may have understood this all wrong, and I hope this isn't a stupid reply, and I hope I won't be banned for this (<g>, sorry),

but...

posting on and visiting a lot of different messageboards, with different topics and rules, I think the WC CIC CZ is, next to the SWRPG BBS one of the most neatly moderated MessageBoards I know.

On other messageboards, flamewars were easily started, n00bs were instantly scolded upon when asking a 'stupid' question, and often there were a lot of "did not - did too" 'discussions' .

So, you may have a problem with the CZ. Good. Write down your complaints and e-mail them to the moderators. I understand partially that you want to show all of the visitors what you think of it, but I doubt it would help. People would go write down their opinions and discuss about it, and the moderators would write why things can't or won't be done, and why several rules exist,
but I think, if you really want it to become a democrating thingy, make a POLL.

This way, people can post their opinion.

I myself think this is unnecessary, because I have been visiting the CZ for some time now, and it is, as I complimented earlier, very well moderated. Newbies are welcomed, questions are answered, even questions like "Who is maniac?" (For instance) people are only banned as last resort, and flamewars are mostly stopped right after the fire has been lit.

There could be people who are afraid to post things because they will be afraid of being laughed at.
They can write a private message if they want, or simply refer to the mods.

Any way, I congratulate the moderators with their CZ 'management' .


Regards,

Zim

 

[LeHah]

The CZ is one of the very few boards I post at, and is usually my first stop when I log on the internet. It's very well moderated and has a fairly good sense of humor. Even a jackass like me hasn't been banned yet (though I have to refrain from pop-culture jabs for the most part, cutting my humor vocabulary down to fart jokes) so you have to try REALLY hard to get that special prize.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I agree with everything here, from the CZ being fairly tame compared to other such boards to the fact that LeHah's a jackass...

I think the problem is that people take admins too seriously -- at heart, we want to be regular posters... and something like changing a rank or... making fun of LeHah... is a joke, *not* a threat.

 

[Saturnyne]

I used to frequent another board that had its 'council' of admins... As in this case, they were quite lenient (I think the only post of mine deleted here was when I asked something about WinXP), but then again, I'm not a rule breaking um... mutineer.

Anyway, I've seen what some boards are like. Once I asked why people would use one OS over another for gaming, and a flame war started out of nowhere! People began calling me stupid and assumed I didn't know what an OS was, etc.

Around here, I'm pretty much unknown... I talk to people, but I guess my posts are just kind of 'there'. A certain degree of anonymity is kinda cool.

In any case, I know that being an admin is a hard and thankless job. I was never one myself, but I have had close friends who have had such a position. Hatter can say what he wants to... it's not hard to follow rules, and if you find rules that encroaching on your freedom, then what's the point of going online in the first place? I'm just glad that there are 'police' here to keep things in check. I've seen what happens when people on message boards get out of hand.

 

[Bhaktadil]

One thing is clear, there are many boards worse than the CIC. Does this boards have its faults...of course. All boards have their faults. I won't comment either way about this, but as far as game related boards go there are a lot of worse ones. And at least stupid threads do get closed here. I have seen some boards that are literally flooded with stupidity and the mods are essentially non-existent. When you think about it, there has not been a real troll here for awhile.
I really do not see what the problem of that Freespace thread was as the poster did not come across as overly stupid to me. He was simply stating his opinions (although I do think that Freespace is plagiaristic and unoriginal and that Star Trek has also degenerated into a plagiaristic piece of junk, as well, but that has nothing to do with the thread and...nevermind). Regardless, it is possible to post here decently. I have been posting here without problems, although not to often (Rgistered in June and still a cadet ). So I think that even if the the administration seems a bit hard it is still infinitely preferred over a very lenient but stupid filled warzone. Besides does anyone really want to this place to degenerate back into the silly Voltron era.