Talk:Operation Back Lash - 2667

LOAF and my chat on August 21, 2010 about Confed/Kilrathi carriers in the 2665-2668 period. This has a great breakdown of carrier/fighter losses for the 2667-68 period.

[21:19] <+Dundradal> how many carriers lost in 2666? [21:20] <@LOAFB> That depends on what your definition of is is... [21:20] <@LOAFB> Lets see what we can figure out though [21:21] <+Dundradal> destroyed and crippled [21:21] <+Dundradal> isn't it 4 destroyed and 2 laid up? [21:22] <@LOAFB> The problem is that End Run has a different concept of carriers [21:22] <+Dundradal> true [21:22] <+Dundradal> ok [21:22] <+Dundradal> found the Bear rant to Lonewolf [21:22] <@LOAFB> There are heavy and medium carriers... and they're much bigger than aything else we hear about. [21:22] <+Dundradal> We lost a third of our carriers in the last three [21:22] <+Dundradal> months standard, half of our fleet in the last nine months. I know that's classified information, but you [21:22] <+Dundradal> might as well know the truth now. That's three carriers in just the last two actions, with full compliment of [21:22] <+Dundradal> five hundred spacecraft, six hundred pilots, and ten thousand crew. [21:23] <@LOAFB> Hehe, yeah, that [21:23] * @KrisV (kris@d515385D0.access.telenet.be) Quit (Ping timeout�) [21:24] <@LOAFB> We're just barely hanging on. You are right, if we lose four more fleet [21:24] <@LOAFB> carriers, half of all we've got left, the war is lost. [21:24] <@LOAFB> So eight in the year before End Run, according to End Run [21:25] <+Dundradal> "I don't know what production is like back home, but I never did trust the promises of all those new [21:25] <+Dundradal> ships we kept hearing about. Sir, as far as I know we simply don't have any more reserves. We've lost [21:25] <+Dundradal> half our fleet carriers in the last year. We lose four more in a single action and those furballs will be at [21:25] <+Dundradal> Earth's front door." [21:25] <@LOAFB> But it's problematic because somehow those amazing giant carriers include the Concordia, a Bengall and a heavy cruiser. [21:25] <+Dundradal> yeah [21:25] <+Dundradal> damn you Gettysburg [21:26] <+Dundradal> here's the big one [21:26] <+Dundradal> "I'm talking about the survival of the Confederation, Geoffrey. I didn't like sending those kids out any [21:26] <+Dundradal> more than you did. But, by God, Geof, we're on the ropes and fighting for survival. Our carriers are the [21:26] <+Dundradal> thin line between tens of billions of people and the vengeance of the Kilrathi. We have a grand total of [21:26] <+Dundradal> seven fleet carriers left to cover the entire front, Geof; we've lost nine in the last year and it'll be another [21:26] <+Dundradal> year before they finish repairing Austerlitz and our new heavy carriers come on line. They have at least [21:26] <+Dundradal> twenty and God knows how many more coming into the fleet." [21:26] <+Dundradal> that bumps it up to 9 destroyed [21:26] <+Dundradal> and Austerlitz in repairs [21:30] <@LOAFB> "We won Vukar by the skin of our teeth. We lost the Trafalgar , and Gettysburg will be in dry dock for [21:30] <@LOAFB> a year. That just leaves Wolfhound and Concordia for this entire sector and you take half of our assets [21:30] <@LOAFB> and go gallivanting off. Damn it, man, you almost took our victory and turned it into a disaster." [21:30] <@LOAFB> And then that from the end [21:30] <+Dundradal> yeah [21:31] <+Dundradal> so 5 heavy/medium carriers left at the end of 2667 [21:31] <+Dundradal> and 10 CVEs [21:31] <+Dundradal> until we lose 2 CVEs later [21:31] <@LOAFB> Nine CVEs [21:31] <@LOAFB> And a medium carrier might be a separate thing [21:32] <+Dundradal> true [21:32] <+Dundradal> and I miscounted [21:32] <+Dundradal> forgot austerlitz [21:33] <@LOAFB> "Seventy three billion and some change," Jamison continued, not giving [21:33] <@LOAFB> Tolwyn a chance to interject. "A full compliment of fighters another ten [21:33] <@LOAFB> billion. In the last three years we've lost over one and a half trillion [21:33] <@LOAFB> dollars worth of carriers and fighters." [21:34] <@LOAFB> Let us do that math [21:34] <+Dundradal> I suck at math [21:35] <@LOAFB> 18-19 carriers [21:35] <@LOAFB> (1,500,000,000,000 / 83,000,000,000) [21:35] <+Dundradal> hmm [21:36] <@LOAFB> I guess it's over that amount, so 19 carriers between 2665 and 2668. [21:36] <+Dundradal> damn [21:36] <+Dundradal> although [21:36] <+Dundradal> I'd expect there to be high fighter losses [21:37] <+Dundradal> so maybe we can lose a few carriers in there [21:37] <@LOAFB> Yeah that's true [21:38] <+Dundradal> thinking of 1942 carrier wing attrition rates [21:38] <+Dundradal> and not just losses but damaged planes [21:39] <+Dundradal> so if you think of it that way [21:39] <+Dundradal> it's actually reasonable [21:39] <@LOAFB> In the last [21:39] <@LOAFB> standard year we can be certain that we have destroyed seven of their escort [21:39] <@LOAFB> carriers, two fleet carriers and seven eights of other ships. [21:39] <+Dundradal> hmm [21:39] <+Dundradal> 7 CVEs? [21:39] <@LOAFB> Two fleet carriers between End Run and Fleet Action [21:40] <+Dundradal> although this list is my own doing and is probably wrong in regards for some of them.... [21:40] <+Dundradal> http://www.wcnews.com/wcpedia/Wake-Class_Escort_Carrier [21:40] <@LOAFB> I think the thing is nobody ever wants to think there's more than the first nine fors ome reason [21:40] <@LOAFB> But they were a huge success and easy to built, Confed must have made more. [21:40] <+Dundradal> yeah [21:41] <@LOAFB> I believe we also have ten names for them anyway [21:41] <+Dundradal> transports would have far more construction slips that military ships [21:41] <+Dundradal> than [21:41] <@LOAFB> The Kilrathi destroyed seven CVEs between End Run and Fleet Action and Confed is launching Red Three with eight CVEs [21:42] <+Dundradal> the new class of CVEs is mentioned in FA? [21:42] <+Dundradal> 15 CVEs is impressive [21:42] <+Dundradal> in basically a year and a half [21:43] <@LOAFB> It isn't mentioned in Fleet Action, it's from WC3 [21:43] <@LOAFB> or the WC3 book [21:43] <+Dundradal> there's not another one besides the Eagle? [21:43] <+Dundradal> I thoguht it was a CVL [21:43] <@LOAFB> I think they call the Eagle an escort carrier [21:44] <@LOAFB> Banbridge says in Action Stations that the Kilrathi outnumber then nearly two to one in carriers, and we know the Kilrathi have twenty carriers exactly. [21:44] <+Dundradal> yeah I rememebr that remark [21:44] <@LOAFB> Although I guess we don't know if Confed knows that [21:45] <@LOAFB> We do outnumber the human confederation in total number of carriers, [21:45] <@LOAFB> fighters of all classes, and heavy cruisers. However, as you can see by the [21:45] <@LOAFB> charts projected, we will see no new replacement of carriers of standard [21:45] <@LOAFB> design for the next three of eighty days. In the meantime it is projected by [21:45] <@LOAFB> my intelligence staff that the humans will have four of their new fleet [21:45] <@LOAFB> carriers coming into operations, thus enabling them to form an entire new [21:45] <@LOAFB> task force and reach a rough parity with our own carrier forces for the [21:46] <@LOAFB> first time in this war. [21:47] <+Dundradal> hmm [21:48] <+Dundradal> well you can thank Forstchen at least for adhering sort of to the USN PAC-10 carrier doctrine [21:49] <+Dundradal> 4 carriers would normally constitute a task group with screen [21:49] <@LOAFB> Oh, okay, Confed intel knows about 19 Kilrathi carriers in Fleet Action [21:49] <@LOAFB> It's mentioned later [21:49] <+Dundradal> 19 after losses? [21:50] <@LOAFB> The Kilrathi actually have twenty fleet carriers, we see when Thrakhath and the Emperor are dividing up the fleets [21:50] <+Dundradal> hmm [21:50] <+Dundradal> but wouldn't that give them like 28 carriers in 2667? [21:50] <@LOAFB> But then when Tolwyn is talking abotu what they're facing, they know there are 'at least 19' standard carriers [21:51] <@LOAFB> So Confed in Fleet Action must have just over half of 19 fleet carriers. [21:52] <+Dundradal> hmm [21:52] <@LOAFB> (So, ten I guess) [21:52] <@LOAFB> With four more coming online in 2668-9 [21:53] <+Dundradal> the Kilrathi lose what 8 in 2667? [21:53] <+Dundradal> during Back Lash [21:53] <+Dundradal> not including the ones on Largzka [21:54] <+Dundradal> I should probably start editing this article [21:55] <@LOAFB> We see ten Kilrathi carriers in End Run, not counting the ones on the moon... five to six are destroyed. [21:56] <+Dundradal> was one of Thrakhat's 3 damaged? [21:56] <@LOAFB> Another one that as at Vukar was crippled [21:56] <+Dundradal> maybe that's what I was thinking of [21:57] <@LOAFB> Oh wait, better numbers come from Thrakhath [21:57] <@LOAFB> Five lost at Vukar, two crippled [21:58] * @TrelaneL (mcgallag@c-24-34-228-190.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout�) [21:58] <+Dundradal> half the home fleet lost and 2 crippled... [21:59] <+Dundradal> it's amazing how fast they are able to burn through carriers [21:59] <+Dundradal> both sides [21:59] <+Dundradal> and even with a weaker shipyard ability Confed does ok for itself [21:59] <+Dundradal> but pilot's would have been difficult to continually replace at that rate [22:01] <@LOAFB> 40,000 Kilrathi ground troops killed at Vukar, five carriers destroyed and two knocked out of action for a year, twenty warships and a dozen support ships destroyed. [22:02] <@LOAFB> Confed loses one carrier, another is crippled... seven escort ships and 96 pilots. [22:02] <@LOAFB> The Kilrathi carriers in End Run carry 120 fighters each [22:03] <+Dundradal> I might just copy and paste this chat into the Back Lash article [22:04] <@LOAFB> So 840 Kilrathi pilots engaged... and only two crippled carriers survive, so only a very limited number of those must have made it. [22:04] <+Dundradal> for reference [22:04] <+Dundradal> since we've done this a few times and I know I space it later [22:04] <@LOAFB> It's too bad we don't really get to see this battle. [22:04] <+Dundradal> yeah [22:04] <+Dundradal> it would be a nice mini-campaign/mod [22:05] <+Dundradal> although [22:05] <+Dundradal> where the hell does the Svestapol go? [22:05] <@LOAFB> Since space-Midway sounds like it would be a bit more interesting than THE TARAWA CAN DO EVERYTHING. [22:05] <+Dundradal> hehehe [22:05] <+Dundradal> yeah [22:05] <+Dundradal> Bondarevsky and the Tarawa are untouchable [22:06] <+Dundradal> it should have been destroyed [22:06] <+Dundradal> in 2669 [22:06] <@LOAFB> It doesn't follow them to Niven to meet with the rest of the fleet