WC: Top Gun

overmortal

overmortal

Bearded Person
First off, let me say that I realize that the Saga team is incredibly busy getting the prologue ready. But, it was the beta of the prologue that I played so so long ago that gave me this idea which the Saga team may find useful at some later date.

The AI in the WC games has never been truely phenomenal. Sure, there have been plenty of tough battles, but I'd never say that the AI was really equal or superior to the player. I've played some other flight sims (non space combat) where the AI was top notch, and even with my understanding of modern combat maneuvers and tactics, I got my ass whooped. So, the tougher AI in that Saga prologue beta got me to thinking . . .

What if there were a WC game that focused on ACM (and I'm stealing directly from Top Gun on that one). Not so much the helter-skelter turn-and-burn tactics that most of us use to take down waves after waves of enemies, but rather an extremely challenging one-on-one dogfighting scenario where the enemy knows and uses every move, maneuver, and trick in the book to keep you off his tail and in his gunsights.

The reason I'm presenting this to the Saga team specifically is that I know from observation the extremely high standard of quality you guys hold yourselves to. I know you've actually tweaked the AI to be more like wc3, and already have a very solid existing game to build upon, and the knowledge, will, and drive to take everything to the next step.

I've rambled on far too much in this post, but, if any of you are interested in this little side-venture, please contact me. Thanks.
 
I've had similar thoughts myself, Overmortal, although it sounds like your piloting skills and knowledge exceed mine by quite a bit. :) Due to the amount of work we are putting into Saga, I don't know that any of us have the time or resources to put into that venture right now (but I can only speak for myself). Still, I will say that the idea definitely has merit, and I think that playing Saga on it's hardest level will really challenge even the most talented pilots among us. It's enough to even make Tolwyn sweat, and that's saying something! It makes you earn every kill, and you won't get very many of them. Hopefully, it will help to satisfy a little of the desire you are describing.

So, part of what I am saying is that if you wait just a bit, you can compare our hardest level with what you want, and see how closely they match up.

Then, if that doesn't quite match what you were thinking, flesh out your idea a bit more. I will say that I think what you are describing would be very interesting, and could possibly even be implemented into the FS2 engine. It would certainly require some very careful mission balancing, I think, and programming talents beyond my own (heck, I'm not a programmer, really). Perhaps the first place to start may be approaching the folks in charge of the FS2 Source Code Project. They are the wizard AI programmers and may be the right ones to pitch your idea to.

Once Saga is released, people will be able to use the FRED2 program to create their own missions and campaigns. I see this as an excellent opportunity for you to pursue this idea of yours if what we are creating does not quite capture the experience you are describing. So, my suggestion would be to flesh it out a bit more, pitch it to the guys who do the Source Code Project, and then see where it takes you from there.
 
Actually, Sphynx, what I had in mind was not exactly a campaign or much, but rather a tutorial of sorts, but possibly with some sort of payoff for good marks. Take, for example, the moves given in Claw Marks. The player would see these moves demonstrated early on, shown how to do them, up through a series of missions similar to the "This is how you do it" mission in Saga. Then, you're pitted up against an opponent with a very very talented AI. Then, just for kicks, maybe an actual mission where you have an objective to accomplish, and multiple enhanced AI targets will make the mission extremely difficult. All this in preparation for playing Saga on the hardest setting.

Make any sense?
 
Makes perfect sense. A series of intense training sets like this could possibly be worked in to the simulator aspect of the FS2 engine (single-player single missions). I don't know how to script the instructor doing each specific move, but I'm sure that there is someone who could make it happen.

I like the idea. Like I said, go ahead and pursue it. Check in with the SCP guys to see if they know how to script certain maneuvers for the instructor.
 
People talk smack on the AI in WC3, yet fighting at the top difficulty level was quite challenging. The Vaktoths especially were very good at closing range. Once they do, see how easy it is to stay on their tail, if you get there at all.
 
It's because AI is an entirely generic, inoffensive word people can latch onto -- it's like "plot".
 
I dunno, Dragon. I remember rather vividly being thirteen and playing the 'asteroid base' mission in WC3 on the hardest setting, and smoking every last Vaktoth without my wingman's help. It was usually a dralthi that got me, if anyone, with a missile right up the nose.

But, then again, I did very little other than play WC back in those days.
 
You can't be expected to keep up with the jargon that professional military men like Psych and overmortal use.
 
Dragon1 said:
People talk smack on the AI in WC3, yet fighting at the top difficulty level was quite challenging. The Vaktoths especially were very good at closing range. Once they do, see how easy it is to stay on their tail, if you get there at all.
Click to expand...

Yeah, most people that complain about the AI play at low difficulty levels. I find WC3 and WC4 the hardest WC games around. I could just cruise by waves of enemy ships on WCP and SO at the hardest level, but it was as simple on those two. WC4 missile damage made every single enemy dangerous.
 
@d3r3k,

I believe ACM stands for Air Combat Maneuvers.

@ Everyone

And, to be clear, I am certainly not complaining about the AI in WC (Vaktoths could give me the willies sometimes). At higher difficulty levels, it is more than challenging enough for me (especially since I had an injury that cut down on my fine motor coordination in my joystick hand... grumble), and I was never dissapointed.

I think what Overmortal is saying is that even the best AI cannot completely mimick a living, breathing, professionally trained pilot, although they still provide a great challenge.

What I really like is the idea of missions that would train you in specific combat maneuvers and that help you recognize tactical situations in which you would use specific maneuvers. This would be similar to the way Air Force pilots are trained today. You would learn when to use a barrel role, afterburner slide, turn and burn, etc... I can see some value in that.

And, since this is in the Saga forum and Delance was talking about the missile damage aspect, I want to say that in Saga you will learn to have a very, very healthy amount of respect (if not fear) for hostile missiles which I believe has captured the same feeling that WC4 was able to produce. Even a lone Darket can spell instant doom if it gets a lock and you don't manage to shake it. You will also learn to treasure your own missiles and use them at strategically wise moments.

(You will also learn-- or revisit-- a healthy fear of cap ships, IMO).
 
Maj.Striker said:
Sounds like good stuff...so again, when are we getting a demo? :)
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Current status of the demo is as follows:

Models

100%

Textures

100%

Missions

100%

Interface

100%

Effects

100%

Movies

60%

Sounds

100%

Voice

100%

Music

100%
 
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