Tolwyn and the Nephilim

Interesting topic here, Monsterfurby, and one I myself have considered, especially after playing WC4 after Prophecy...even if Tolwyn was referring to races like the Mantu at the end, it still seemed almost foreboding of what was to come in Prophecy.

As for Tolwyn himself, I could take him or leave him. I agree with Maj. Striker that he was like the WC equivalent of Patton. I have mixed feelings, though, probably because we didn't play Tolwyn in the games...the victories won were tributed as much to Blair and other pilots' intervention as much as they were to any high-ranking military mastermind like Tolwyn. Through the games, I almost got the sense that there was a continual love-hate relationship between Blair and Tolwyn; they almost always clashed, but you kind of got the feeling that the reason things worked out in the end was because of the involvements of both. They always seemed to mutually respect and despise one another which was always an effective plot element in the series, I thought.

At any rate...against the Nephilim, would Tolwyn have done a better job? That's a hard one to say...that depends on your definition of "better." In my opinion, I think the Confederation would've benefitted from having him around to fight the new threat. Of course, the argument people are putting forth - that the fleet was in a continuing transition from a war-time powerhouse of fleets stretching as far as the eye could see to a peace-time collection of vigilant patrols moving about in small clusters to make sure all was quiet - makes a lot of sense to me. The Midway herself seemed like a wise investment for this purpose, though a very pricey one and very risky should a war start and you're stuck with one awesome capital ship that can't be in multiple places at once. So the whole concept of Tolwyn having a huge armada at his disposal just wouldn't hold water...unless the real question here is if the ending events of WC4 had been different and the whole Darwinism policy supported by Tolwyn had come to fruition so that maintaining a massive fleet would be Confed's top priority. But without another enemy to fight in the interim to make such an investment worthwhile, that policy wouldn't last...unless we're talking about a military anarchy with ships attacking each other or something (which again, probably wouldn't last).

So let's replace Wilford with Tolwyn on the Midway, to put him in the ideal spot that he'd likely be in (or force his way into) come the events of Prophecy. Do I think he would've done a better job? The answer's yes. Even though Tolwyn soon became the evil puppetmaster everyone loved to hate that validated their disgust for him in all the games prior to WC4, and he didn't seem overly loved by any people serving under him...the fact remains that the man commanded an aura about him. Things would be going to hell and everybody would be frantically looking around for a suggestion, and there Tolwyn would be with a determined face and an idea he planned to impliment and follow through on, whether the idea was right or wrong. He was the kind of character who would talk and others would listen, even if he was just going off on some kind of tirade or verbally abusing you for negligence. Sure, he was the kind of unlovable character who would watch comrades die without batting an eye and just carry on about his business, completely confident in his decisions...that's why he was hated, and that's also ironically why he was respected.

Wilford, by contrast, seems to be more of a lovable fatherly type ready to take everyone under his wing. There were some scenes in Prophecy that I thought were almost going to turn into a group hug. :D Tolwyn was cold, calculating, and egotistical, but even those of us who hated him somewhat admired his tenacity and effectiveness (whether it was leading a group of people or just being himself). Onboard the Concordia in WC2 or the Victory for a time in WC3, you knew exactly who was running the show. In Prophecy, it just doesn't have that tight a feel to it...you feel like you have more allegiance to the CAG than the Captain, and I don't remember ever seeing her out there in the thick of it with her pilots!

So anyway...I think the Confederation would've benefitted from Tolwyn in Prophecy, sure. Of course if he was present and in charge, it probably would've screwed up the works a bit. The whole concept of everyone on the Midway not knowing what to do and feeling their way around in the darkness made the Nephilim a scarier enemy to fight against. Had Tolwyn in all his confidence been present, he would've had an opinion, stuck with it, and kept everybody in line...he probably would've shot down all the religious mumbo-jumbo tied in to the Nephilim, and kept everyone focused on the task at hand rather than speculating the how and why of everything, and getting wrapped up in the potential futility of it all.

Long story short, I think he probably would've run a tighter ship, and thus kept everyone a lot more level-headed. For that alone, his presence would've been a significant asset in Prophecy, even if he's not in fact the brilliant tactician and military mastermind some would make him out to be.

So here's to not missing and yet still missing Tolwyn. :)

- FireFalcon ~};^
 
X_FIREFALCON said:
Wilford, by contrast, seems to be more of a lovable fatherly type ready to take everyone under his wing. There were some scenes in Prophecy that I thought were almost going to turn into a group hug. :D
Yeah, especially that one scene with Wilford after you kill the cats. Why, it almost seemed like they were ready to hug you to death.
 
Tolwyn was a hard taskmaster and in the case of leading a wing of newbies and facing an unknown threat he might've decided to stand fast againt the bug horde and been overwhelmed and destroyed when and if any of his pilots broke under combat stress.

Also are we talking about Tolwyn in the strict battlefield sense (i.e. him commanding the midway) or as Tolwyn as supreme leader of the 'reengineered' militaristic confed?
 
Even though Tolwyn soon became the evil puppetmaster everyone loved to hate that validated their disgust for him in all the games prior to WC4, and he didn't seem overly loved by any people serving under him...

If you're going by the "evil admiral asshole" Tolwyn in the games WC3/4, no, but there's a lot more to him than that, particularly in the non-game novels.

Casting Tolwin as "evil admiral asshole" seems, to me, to be at least partly laziness on the part of the writers, who either didn't research Tolwyn as portrayed in the books, or ignored the results of that research if they made it, up to WC3's initial scripting.
 
TC said:
That's a reference to the Mantu who aren't a threat in the least.

My understanding from Fleet Action was that the Kilrathi were unable to defeat the Mantu during their war until the Mantu pulled back to face another unknown threat on the far side of their own empire, which took priority over the Kilrathi conflict. Maybe the Nephilim?

Action Stations has the Kilrathi expressing concern over a dangerous all consuming force that was still years away and had only been discovered by their extreme long range probes. Maybe the Nephilim?
 
Confed won twice against surprise attacks from the bugs, so it seems it was prepared enought.
 
My understanding is that Tolwyn live for one purpose, duty, honor, responsibilty and sacrifice. But during the time of the Black Lance/Border World Crisis his priority change to what he thought was in the best interest.
If Tolwyn would have lived instead of committing suicide at the end of WCIV things may have been different. Confed may have release him and seek his advice/help given the account that the Confed High Court had charge him against several crimes and was sentence to the death penalty.
This is a very good debate but a hard decision to think over.
If the High Court change the sentence and gave him a life sentence instead of the dealth penalty it might have been different.
If Tolwyn live through those years in prison and was recalled to help against the Nephilim he would have make sure he would not make the same mistake twice.
I don't know what to think at the moment, Tolwyn and Blair could have team up and worked together and that would be an interesting notion, with Manic, Coriolis, Hawk and Wilford onboard the Midway should be an interesting show, might as well bring Taggart out of military retirement and get him on board and you have the happy campers all together for one last hurrah.
I would have to think this over carefully, but at the moment this is what I can think of....damn interesting discussion
 
I think Tolwyn was scheduled for a speedy termination, so even if he didn't kill himself there wasn't much chance that he would have been around for the new invasion.

If by chance he was sitting in a cell when the Nephilim came, it would have just confirmed to him that the whole Black Lance thing really was a good idea.
 
Tolwyn like Patton was a man for war. Without it he pretty much had no purpose and ultimately destroyed himself. Tolwyn was not always like he was before WCIV he was a man of honor and risked himself and the Concordia to save a very capable captain and crew aboard the CVE Tarawa. Out of all the characters in Wing Commander Tolwyn has been my favorite. The books framed his as a hero the games framed him as a traitor, but the forces at work trying to end the war by taking over the civilian govnt eventually won over Tolwyn. I would like to think he joined the Black Lance at first to try and save ConFed by using his influence from the inside. I believe that he thought he was doing a good thing, but in the end he was currupted. If circumstances would to have been different I believe that Tolwyn would have ultimately been a great leader and would have cleaned the clocks of any bugs to come our way. Sadly this was not meant to be. In Tolwyn's state during WCIV if he was not removed and the Black Lance destroyed the outcome of the bugs woudl be the same as said above, but the freedoms of the people under ConFed would be in a state i donnot wish to discuss. Anyways enough of my babble.


Tolwyn = good *if there was never a black lance
Tolwyn = Bad at our current state of being
Blair = he was accaully my 3rd fav character I really dont think he had much to do besides self sacrifice in the fight against the bugs
 
McGruff said:
I think Tolwyn was scheduled for a speedy termination, so even if he didn't kill himself there wasn't much chance that he would have been around for the new invasion.

He was due to be executed the next day, in fact. Apparently Confed justice moves fast.

Quarto said:
Yeah, especially that one scene with Wilford after you kill the cats. Why, it almost seemed like they were ready to hug you to death.

What, you've never had a screaming match with your father? You see, he wasn't so much angry as Casey as disappointed in him. :)

Tolwyn vs the Nephilim is a hard one to predict. I think Confed would certainly have been more militarised and better equipped. On the other hand, it would have been suffering the after-effects of the widespread use of the Gen-Select, and possibly involved in one of those brushfire wars Tolwyn was planning on starting, so the Midway and Eisen may not have been in the right place to counter the invasion.

Best, Raptor
 
True
But then it would have been a while before Confed would have the next military genius. But then you would look at the previous officers from all the factions, Banbridge, Turner, Richards, Horatio, Grecko, Wilford, Eisen and Kruger there would not be as many would have done so much in their career.
The decision about the TCS Midway and Eisen not have been at the right place will not be known. We never knew how it would have turn out if the Eisen battle group would have done much.
Does anyone know what ships was in the Eisen Carrier/Battle Group??
 
McGruff said:
My understanding from Fleet Action was that the Kilrathi were unable to defeat the Mantu during their war until the Mantu pulled back to face another unknown threat on the far side of their own empire, which took priority over the Kilrathi conflict. Maybe the Nephilim?

Action Stations has the Kilrathi expressing concern over a dangerous all consuming force that was still years away and had only been discovered by their extreme long range probes. Maybe the Nephilim?

No, the force referred to in AS was also the Mantu.

As for who the Mantu pulled back to address, instead of the Kilrathi, for all we know it could've been a horde of pink fluffy bunnies. :p Not only has it never been said who the Mantu's other enemy was, we don't even know where the Nephilim came from.
 
Death said:
No, the force referred to in AS was also the Mantu.
Actually, LOAF has said a few times that this "force" mention was added in AS at Origin's request, because they were working on WCP at the time, so it was indeed supposed to regard the Nephilim... though I don't feel like searching through the CZ archives to find a quote, and in any case I don't know if he has any proof to back up this claim.
 
The answer is no, because it would not even be Confed anymore, and, in fact, when Confed heard of what Tolwyn was planning to do, Confed decided to stop it. Confed is more than a bunch of ships & men flying around, it's also an idea. In this sense the Black Lance was as much of a threat as the Kilrathi and the Bugs. That's also why, you know, all those were the bad guys on the games. Had Tolwyn’s faction won, whatever Confed protected would’ve already been lost.

It was not Blair or the Border Wold that stopped Tolwyn, it was the Confed Senate. Blair simply told them what was going on. Confed made an informed decision not that Tolwyn was unable to defend them, but that the whole things was harmful and evil.

Anyway, I think if the Bugs got to confed in the midst of a brutal civil war with the use of bioweapons things could’ve been far worse.
 
Oh, come on, Delance. No faction with weapons as cool as the Dragon and the flashpak could possibly be considered evil.
 
for philosphic reason...

what if during the WCA-cartoon time the claw would have encountered the nephilim,
under tolwyn, with blair and maniac on the flight roster...

this, in my opinion, would be the situation some folks here want to visualize.

also, the claw, and the midway appear to be more affective when attacked then the Concordia or the victory... they can deploy fighter's at higher rate through launch tubes, don't have a fly-through hull..
 
I am still of the opinion that Tolwyn only acted like he did because of the entire desperation of the post-Battle of Earth Kilrathi war.

Thanks to him Earth barely managed to repel the Kilrathi invasion fleet brought upon by the civilian government agreeing to the armistace. Then the Behemoth failed. Then the Temblor bomb depended upon the suicide mission of saving a mad doctor, not to mention the slim chance of getting a pilot close enough to Kilrah to deliver it.

Humanity won thanks to a series of miracles, and Tolwyn was saying "We can't expect to rely on miracles. I need to do something to ensure the ultimate superiority of mankind."

I don't agree with Tolwyn did, but I can see what caused him to become that.
 
But Confed didn't win thanks to a series of miracles. They almost lost thanks to one stupid decision - but apart from that, they managed to recover from a near-total defeat at the start of the war, and overcome a superior enemy. Remember, the main reason why they gave the Kilrathi offer any consideration is because they knew they were winning the war. Tolwyn's actions make no sense in any context - they're simply the actions of a character turned into a stereotypical supervillain by the WC4 scriptwriters. And no matter how much the novel writers try to retcon some logic into WC4 Tolwyn, ultimately the character and his actions still make no sense unless you realise that the writers were simply looking for a new bad guy.
 
I dunno. It was *really* easy to screw up the war effort entirely towards the end of WC3. If the Victory doesn't push forward with the T Bomb, Earth falls. That sure gave me the impression of how vital the Victory's position was. Destroy Kilrah or humanity falls.
 
Confed were running out of resourses where they?
Their fleet was dwindling and they did not have much ships left?
Does anyone roughly how many ships were left at the end of the Kilrathi War just prior to the Temblor Bomb Attack?
 
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