The Landreich "Republic" vs. The Union of Border Worlds

The bottom of the map at CIC.

You are correct in stating that the Carrier would only be able to project power in one system, but Loaf clearly stated that only a few - one or two - border systems would be in dispute in such a war. Using a fleet carrier to project power in one of those systems would be a serious thing, that's nearly 50% of the battle field you control.

Logic dictates that such systems would have to be near each other (Lanreich owns a realtively small piece of space, thus there is a small border) which allows the carrier to travel, possibly quite quickly between the two systems.

While you may say that it requires Escorts to run properly, I point to the first pages of False Colors in which the damage carrier takes out two Confederation Cruisers without any escorts.

The Carrier in question is also considerably larger, more powerful, and more modern then anything the BW fleet is likely to have in it. Coupled with the other ships in the Landreich fleet, I think it easily swings the tide of the war in favor of the Landreich.
 
You are correct in stating that the Carrier would only be able to project power in one system, but Loaf clearly stated that only a few - one or two - border systems would be in dispute in such a war. Using a fleet carrier to project power in one of those systems would be a serious thing, that's nearly 50% of the battle field you control.

That's exactly what I said, though - they don't have the ability to fight a war for more than one or two star systems.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
That's exactly what I said, though - they don't have the ability to fight a war for more than one or two star systems.

Gah.....*Bangs head on table for stupidty*

Do we have a formal ORBAT for Landreich like Bob extraplated for the UBW?
 
Jason_Ryock said:
You are correct in stating that the Carrier would only be able to project power in one system, but Loaf clearly stated that only a few - one or two - border systems would be in dispute in such a war. Using a fleet carrier to project power in one of those systems would be a serious thing, that's nearly 50% of the battle field you control.

Logic dictates that such systems would have to be near each other (Lanreich owns a realtively small piece of space, thus there is a small border) which allows the carrier to travel, possibly quite quickly between the two systems.


If war is only about fighting in the systems you want to control... then why the hell did Kilrathi raid behind the lines, charge all across the border, and generally go after Confed's inner worlds? The answer to this is simple; it's not about just one world, but smashing the other side's ability or will to resist. This means destroying their industries, their defenses, or their government and control systems.

In other words, the Landreich would have to go after not just the system they wanted, but also the Border Worlds' defenses nearby along with any other force capable of hurting it with a retaliative raid or counterstrike. If there are forces in the next system over that could hit them while they were fortifying the world after conquest, then the original invasion was a wasted effort along with all the ships and fighters and supplies that were expended. If the Border Worlds can marshall a fleet to smash the Landreich's homeworlds after said invasion (in other words, if the Landreich does not finish the war it's begun), then it's even worse. In other words - you need more than one carrier to prosecute a war, if only because you have to fight in more than one area... and power projection means remaining somewhere, if only so that it has some credible defenses, or to avoid having your conquest undone.

You don't control space with fighters alone - you control space by having a fleet that can project force in a region, defending it from all comers.


Jason_Ryock said:
While you may say that it requires Escorts to run properly, I point to the first pages of False Colors in which the damage carrier takes out two Confederation Cruisers without any escorts.

Problem: Yes, the carrier took on two cruisers and smashed them - BUT it died in the process, which meant that it was still a net loss for the Kilrathi when it happened. Remember that it only took two cruisers to cripple the Kilrathi ship once it had no fighter support, and its sole surviving destroyer escort crashed into the nearby planet. This is NOT an optimal solution - the carrier is not meant to fight at close ranges with a pair of cruisers, and they only pursued because the Karga was already seriously hurt with both launch bays out of commission. Against even a pair of escort carriers and a normal battle group with destroyers and cruisers, the Karga by itself would get its ass handed to it - the escort carriers' fighters would deal with the defending fighters, while destroyers and cruisers could charge in and take down the Karga since she has no torpedoes or capship defenses outside of 3 or so turrets.

If there had been so much as ONE small escort carrier with the two Confed cruisers, the Karga would've been torped and lost with all hands - and the cruisers would probably have survived the engagement. Sending a carrier out alone begs for death, even if the carrier's heavily armed - the Tiger's Claw depended on stealth in order to survive alone behind enemy lines in Operation: Thor's Hammer, and even then they nearly got smashed more times than I care to remember, by just FIGHTERS. If they'd brought in so much as a single destroyer to shoot at the Tiger's Claw with torps, it would've been all over but the fireworks. Thankfully the game engine didn't allow this sort of thing to happen. :D

Jason_Ryock said:
The Carrier in question is also considerably larger, more powerful, and more modern then anything the BW fleet is likely to have in it. Coupled with the other ships in the Landreich fleet, I think it easily swings the tide of the war in favor of the Landreich.

Remember that it only takes one or two torps to take down a carrier; while it takes a whole battle group to engage its escorts, a single fighter wing is all you really need to kill a carrier... though two would be better. As modern and powerful as a Bhanktara may be, it's not a Kilrathi dreadnought - it doesn't have that much in the way of defenses, and if you match its fighter wing with another one of equal size and strength (something that the Border Worlds might be able to manage, given that they've apparently enough salvaged or rebuilt fighters, plus any stolen from Confed in WC4), then the carrier is dead if it's by itself - because you can guarantee that the Border Worlds would bring in as many ships as needed to kill the only heavy carrier platform that the Landreich had, if it was a war.
 
Haesslich said:
If war is only about fighting in the systems you want to control... then why the hell did Kilrathi raid behind the lines, charge all across the border, and generally go after Confed's inner worlds? The answer to this is simple; it's not about just one world, but smashing the other side's ability or will to resist. This means destroying their industries, their defenses, or their government and control systems.
You mean, like what Britain did to Argentina during the Falklands war, right?
No? Well, maybe you mean like what Prussia did to France in the 1870 war? Hmm, no, guess not. I guess maybe you need to rethink your statement :p.
 
Just something else to throw into the debate: technology. The Border Worlds probably have a technological edge (apart from their fighter craft) which would go someway towards neutralising the Landreich's bigger military. Things like leech gun technology, their (limited) ability to cloak bombers, and being able to send non-jump capable craft through jump points. (TPOF novel.)

Best, Raptor
 
Bandit LOAF said:
The Lexington isn't a derelict - it was just left unable to launch fighters. She could (and presumably did) limp back to drydock (and according to the WCP web site, Confed eventually turns her into a monument/museum).

For what purpose though? as a monument to the UBW conflict?
 
[quote="Raptor]Just something else to throw into the debate: technology. The Border Worlds probably have a technological edge (apart from their fighter craft) which would go someway towards neutralising the Landreich's bigger military. Things like leech gun technology, their (limited) ability to cloak bombers, and being able to send non-jump capable craft through jump points. (TPOF novel.)
[/quote]

Hmm, good point. However, we don't hear about the Landreich after the war, so for all we know their technology has evolved and modernized as well. In fact, I'd think they would be more likely to have a technological edge given their militaristic nature.
 
Dundradal said:
For what purpose though? as a monument to the UBW conflict?
It's a Concordia-class carrier. There ain't that many around, and they were somewhat involved in the entire length of the Kilrathi War - surely, that's worth preserving? :p

(plus, the Lexington herself participated in the Battle of Earth)
 
Haesslich said:
If war is only about fighting in the systems you want to control... then why the hell did Kilrathi raid behind the lines, charge all across the border, and generally go after Confed's inner worlds?
The Kilrathi didn't want just a few systems, like this conflict would be, they wanted the obliteration of the Terran Confederation.
 
Quarto said:
It's a Concordia-class carrier. There ain't that many around, and they were somewhat involved in the entire length of the Kilrathi War - surely, that's worth preserving? :p

(plus, the Lexington herself participated in the Battle of Earth)

Wasn't that Lexington a newer-fleet-carrier-whose-name-I-can't-recall? And wasn't she trashed thouroughly, and later repaired, refitted, and sent into WC: Armada? :confused:
 
At BoT the Lex got pretty well romped. It suffered massive internal damage and was basically a floating hulk. Confed refitted her out and sent her through an uncharted jump point...and she was never heard from again...
 
Differant Lexington. :) The TPOF novel specifically mentions that the Lex we see in WC4 was the one that gets gutted in the BoT.

Best, Raptor
 
...Exactly. Heck, even without the WC4 novel specifically saying so, it's still pretty obvious that the Armada Lexington is a different ship - the time gap between BoT and Armada was far too small to repair a ship as badly damaged as the Lexington.
 
Your thread reading skills are top notch. Go ask for some SO episodes in the stuck thread about those.
 
well, in the novels they're crappy compared to apparantly "new" hellcats

and yes, I've played SO, I don't get your point...
 
dacis2 said:
Hmm...

so does the UBW have shitty WC1/2 fighters, or cool Banshees, Vindicators and Avengers?

They've got everything from Scimitars to Kilrathi Vaktoth heavy fighters, plus a fair few Raptors, Hornets, Rapiers and so on.

IOW, if Confed's not using it, Max Kruger's bought it. :D
 
Starwind said:
They've got everything from Scimitars to Kilrathi Vaktoth heavy fighters, plus a fair few Raptors, Hornets, Rapiers and so on.

IOW, if Confed's not using it, Max Kruger's bought it. :D

For the FRLN, the UBW looks like its going the same path, they are buying whatever they can from FRL or where ever they can find them.
 
Dundradal said:
For the FRLN, the UBW looks like its going the same path, they are buying whatever they can from FRL or where ever they can find them.

Yeah, I realised that not long after making that post. I thought dacis was asking about the FRLN, not the UBW. :p

And IIRC the UBW uses the newer WC3 era fighters, whereas the Landreich are using ships that're WC1/2 era, mostly.
 
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