TCS Agamemnon???

frostytheplebe

Seventh Part of the Seal
Don't worry, this thread is not about debating whether this ship is the Confed class dreadnought or if it's the ship on the cover of the game. This is more what I would qualify as a rather curious choice of names for a ship.

For starters, ships that are named after characters or people, are usually named after people who are considered heroic or at least positive. (You don't see a TCS Hitler or a TCS Benedict Arnold).

So why would they name a ship after a character who is portrayed as a villain in two different stories?

The character Agamemnon desecrated Apollo's temple at Troy, taking the daughter of one of their priests as a slave and due to his own greed, nearly lost the war for the Ageans when he refused to give her back. Backed into a corner with protests from his own men, he gave her back, but then took the slave of the hero Achilles, which made him mad. So now thanks to Agamemnon, the Ageans are losing the Trojan war, and they have lost their best warrior.

On top of that, he sacrificed his own child in order to gain favor with the God's to get to Troy... not exactly the most heroic person to name a ship after.

Any thoughts?
 

Zelvik

Rear Admiral
Perhaps because there is a tradition in English speaking navies to name their ships after Greek mythologic and historical personalities and Agamemnon seems to be quite popular at that wheter its one of the 4 HMS Agamemnons or the USS Agamemnon. And as Wing Commander draws most of its naming tradition from these navies Id say you have your reason. Its natural with the Authors of WC canon beeing most familiar with the naval traditions of their history. Its the same reason why you wont find a TCS Viribus Unitis a TCS Garibaldi or a TCS Jiangwei.
 

frostytheplebe

Seventh Part of the Seal
Perhaps because there is a tradition in English speaking navies to name their ships Agamemnon wheter its one of the 4 HMS Agamemnons or the USS Agamemnon. And as Wing Commander draws most of its naming tradition from these navies Id say you have your reason.

Which then begs the question to why would these navies do it? You have the British who name their ships Victorious, Glorious, Indomitable, Lord Nelson, and the like, and the Americans who name their ships after important people, battles, cities, etc. Why would either name a ship after him?
 

Zelvik

Rear Admiral
Firstly the list that you give is not realy exhaustive. As I pointed out there is a tendency that probably started with the repopularization of antiquity to name things after Greek and Roman mythology and history. Even our solar system follows such a naming convention, and that also spilled over into quite a few navies at the time (and then was continued out of tradition and the enduring importance of education about the ancient era within the higher schooling systems of European powers). Also dont forget that especially the Royal navy not only named their ships after "positive" things but also used names that conjured up thoughts of power and ruthlessness (Dominator, Conqueror, Titan you name it, there are plenty of such namings throughout the history of British and other countries military equipment). And Agamemnons name stands for military prowess and endurance - two perfectly valid virtues to be represented by a ship of his majesties fleet.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
So why would they name a ship after a character who is portrayed as a villain in two different stories?

That's the ultra modern treatment of the character. For hundreds and hundreds of years (well, thousands, I guess) he was a great king was tragically cursed. The two stories you describe were supposed to be examples of his being faced with a choice and opting to suffer himself instead of burdening his people.

The previous poster is correct that there is a history of warships being named Agamemnon... although this particular case is probably just as much of a classics joke, as the only reference to the thing is a mention in the WC4 novel that she's the TCS Achilles' sister ship (and that together they're the fleet's two most powerful cruisers).

The really odd one is the TCS Dornier, also from the Wing Commander 4 novelization.

(And the TCS Manassas, from the Confederate name for a battle!)

Its natural with the Authors of WC canon beeing most familiar with the naval traditions of their history. Its the same reason why you wont find a TCS Viribus Unitis a TCS Garibaldi or a TCS Jiangwei.

There are some exceptions--Dr. Forstchen liked to mix in usually-World-War-II-oriented Russian, German and Japanese names for ships on occasion.

... whereas all of Peter Telep's names are things in Florida. :)
 

Prometheus

Spaceman
To provide my two cents, a USS Agamemnon is also mentioned in a Star Trek episode.

Memory Alpha said:
In late 2369, the Agamemnon was part of Admiral Nechayev's task force assembled to defend Federation colonies from an anticipated second Borg invasion. (TNG: "Descent")
 

Bob McDob

Better Health Through Less Flavor
I think I stopped worrying too much about symbolism in Confed when I saw in Fleet Action that they'd seen fit to name a carrier TCS Verdun. :)

(There's also a US guided missile cruiser named USS Chancellorsville).
 

TCS-Concordia

Rear Admiral
Yes, I have a fondness for B5's omega class destroyers.. Seeing them smash something is the only thing that comes close to Concordia PTCing that Kilrathi Capship in WCII. I will never forget the awesome feeling seeing that WCII animation for the first time.. Jaw dropping..
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
It's interesting how quickly Babylon 5 left the group consciousness. We all sort of just agreed never to speak of it again.
 

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
It's interesting how quickly Babylon 5 left the group consciousness. We all sort of just agreed never to speak of it again.

Heh isn't that weird....I just got this email from the B5 script site the other day....

B5 said:
This month marks our 5 year anniversary of printing directly to fans.

We have something special for the occasion that will be announced via email and
B5books.com on Wednesday, October 20 at 10am Pacific.



Captain Jaclyn
B5 Books Team
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
'We' as in the community? Because it seems to have popped up quite a few times since I joined.

No, in general--back in the mid-1990s it was *the* heavily praised alternative to Star Trek for sci-fi geeks and it was recognized by mainstream audiences... and now it's just nowhere.
 

Prometheus

Spaceman
Maybe because the CGI effects, though propably innovative for the time, haven't aged well at all. "Looks like a videogame"...
 

Flashpoint

Rear Admiral
I still watch B5 from time to time.
I watch it sparingly, so it never gets old, as it is my all time favourite TV show and universe.
While the comments about the CGI are probably valiv when viewed episodically, I always feel that as you get immersed in a story, you get used to the look of it and after a few episodes of an entire rewatch, you soon forget about dated graphics.

I wonder if JMS has ever considered doing a Lucas and going back and updating the grapics at all.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I still spin the DVDs--it doesn't hold up quite as well in a post-Lord of the Rings movies world, but it still has its moments.

I think it may be that all the secondary stuff died with the show--no novels or comic books or bath towels keeping the franchise in our minds like we see with Star Trek/Wars/Gate. As far as I know it's owned by Warner Brothers and not JMS outright... so I'm not sure why that happened.
 

Prometheus

Spaceman
While the comments about the CGI are probably valiv when viewed episodically, I always feel that as you get immersed in a story, you get used to the look of it and after a few episodes of an entire rewatch, you soon forget about dated graphics.

I agree. However, "mainstream audiences" tend to care a lot more about stuff like that, and whine about being it "too ugly to even look at" and similar things...
 

Dyret

Super Carrot!
I agree. However, "mainstream audiences" tend to care a lot more about stuff like that, and whine about being it "too ugly to even look at" and similar things...

I'm positive the 'mainstream reaction' to a 16 year old show doesn't have anything to do with us nerds not talking about it anymore. :)

Bandit LOAF said:
I think it may be that all the secondary stuff died with the show--no novels or comic books or bath towels keeping the franchise in our minds like we see with Star Trek/Wars/Gate. As far as I know it's owned by Warner Brothers and not JMS outright... so I'm not sure why that happened.

There is also something about the way the show works. It ultimately a tight, self contained four season story about the crew and occupants of Babylon 5 and after that... not even the show knew what to do with itself... and there really isn't a lot left of what made B5 awesome in the first place. G'Kar and Franklin are gone, Sheridan has a boring job now, Babylon 5 itself lost all it's interesting characters and exploded, and so on. I'm sure there are still awesome stories to be told in the universe, but until then, there really isn't a lot more to be said. Babylon 5 has told it's story.

Trek on the other hand is what, 40 years of (fun and less fun) adventure after adventure in a universe specifically to throw a new and exciting story at you every week. Remember how Kirk and Picard got caught in the space-hole thing outside of time and space and had to join forces to stop Malcolm McDowell from blowing up the universe? It came out of nowhere, and I have no idea how it connects with anything else in the universe, but it was fun... I want more of that!
 

TCSTigersClaw

Greek Special Forces B' Company "Naoussa" 2007-200
D
So why would they name a ship after a character who is portrayed as a villain in two different stories?

The character Agamemnon desecrated Apollo's temple at Troy, taking the daughter of one of their priests as a slave and due to his own greed, nearly lost the war for the Ageans when he refused to give her back. Backed into a corner with protests from his own men, he gave her back, but then took the slave of the hero Achilles, which made him mad. So now thanks to Agamemnon, the Ageans are losing the Trojan war, and they have lost their best warrior.

On top of that, he sacrificed his own child in order to gain favor with the God's to get to Troy... not exactly the most heroic person to name a ship after.

Any thoughts?












Eeem , about Agamemnon (Αγαμέμνων in my native language :)) ....why did you say he was a villain ?

He was a one of the greatest General`s in his age , he managed to gather a huge army against Troy (Τροία).United Greece against the common foe. He was King of Mycenae (Μυκήνες) and Argos (Άργος) and was a great ruler.

He exists both in greek history but also in greek mythology (Homer-Όμηρος)

He is one of the MANY characters from both greek history and mythology that was not portraited right ,in movies ,games etc.


Also he never REALLY murdered his daughter but with the blessing of Artemis (Άρτεμις) a deer.....
 
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