Please contact Michelle

I think arrogance is a pretty important part of leadership -- a leader has to believe in the project and the vision.

Edit: Nor do I think it's some sort of childish grab at power. I'm specifically replying to Spirit's request that someone take charge of the project...
 
Confidence is what you need to inspire -- and I think it's best expressed with over the top arrogance. People like to follow a character.

(Edit -- look at Chris Roberts. He's not a great designer, he's not a great coder and he's not a great writer... but he's an over the top, arrogant character.)

Though I do have full confidence in my claims. I am the person best suited for the job, and I can tell you why. I'm not asking for your support, though... I have the support of the best community in the world. I'm just asking Spirit to directly respond to me instead of tiptoeing around with incredible weirdness.
 
Okay, here's the deal, i'll break it down real easy and clear like...

LOAF since the get go (and myself) have been going around and giving our suggestion and WC knowledge (LOAF does know more than me by the way) where we feel it should be applied, what has happened when we've done this? It's been ignored and shrugged away. Also, I would think you all would appreciate the more diplomatic approach LOAF has been taking. He's trying to give Spirit a chance to prove herself, or step down. Since she is the de-facto head of the project (guilt by association would apply here) he decided it best NOT to just flat out usurp her authoriy. It's not a matter of begging, he's merely trying to be diplomatic. Spirit thus far has given us a run around of sorts loaded with bad ideas, the biggest so far wanting to bring in someone who is unknown to lead a project they know nothing about. My biggest deal with this, spirit rooms with this person, has the ear of this person. I can't help but think that this would be a severe disadavantage to those who are trying to ensure some form of qaulity control. My role in this has been to ensure that accurate and really exceptional pieces of work are done, that's my job. I know it well. I've made my suggestions, i've pointed out where things can improve, i've cited stuff, what it comes down to is that people need to do a bit of researching on their, especially our oh so glorious de-facto leader person. If I had my way, i'd have usurped, purged, and re-organized on a massive scale, people be damned. Does this make me a rude, insensitive person? No. It means i'm all hellfired up to ensure that something which Origin/EA and the creators of the overall Wing Commander Franchise over the years would be proud of. I think the root of mine and LOAF's deal is that we don't want this god awful blight of a project to loom large in the eyes of guys who are more than thoroughly dejected to see their great work smeared with all kinds of crap. You want to make a good WCU? Go read the Privateer Online Design Document, read the Privateer 3 Design Document. You want links? Here are your links...


ftp://ftp.wcnews.com/files/documents/Priv3_Design_High.zip <-- P3 design doc

ftp://ftp.wcnews.com/files/documents/POL_Design_High.zip <-- Privateer Online Design doc.

Also, when someone DOES suggest what be fixed, don't get indignant. Also, if you do work that isn't acceptable, don't expect it to be used until its fixed. Lets do something coherent and organized. If you need some help with designing, let me know, I'll be more than happy to get the ball rolling in that department.
 
Sorry for bothering everyone with this thing about Michelle :( she's been out of a job for months and I'm trying to get her involved in SOMEthing, she's been getting very very apathetic and that's not healthy... anyway... never mind i guess... as i said trying to help her is my duty and i've not been doing a great job at it. This said, sorry for not replying sooner but I kinda collapsed today.
 
*chuckles*

Well hello mister fancy-pants!

charlieg said:
The current leader is not a person, but a concept; meritocracy, since those who do the work (Spirit and thehawk) are deciding the current direction
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I got news for you pal, I ain't leadin' but two things right now. Jack. And sh*t. Jack left town.

*grins*

-thehawk
 
spiritplumber said:
Sorry for bothering everyone with this thing about Michelle :( she's been out of a job for months and I'm trying to get her involved in SOMEthing, she's been getting very very apathetic and that's not healthy... anyway... never mind i guess... as i said trying to help her is my duty and i've not been doing a great job at it. This said, sorry for not replying sooner but I kinda collapsed today.
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See, again, though, you didn't really address any of my points. (Other than to further bring into question why anyone should have any interest in following your roomate whom we still haven't met.)
 
I'm sorry LOAF, but it's true what others have been saying. I've kept out of this discussion as much as possible, but it make's me despressed knowing where this project may end up if you are in charge.

The problem is:

You ( and BradMick also for a part ) both have a vast knowhow of the WC universe, and this is in reality blinding you. Becouse you have this knowhow, you both dont like it that people add things that arent 100% accurate. I mean come on ... spiritplumber added the wrong base for the Kilrathi Super Base ... no biggy ... she added it becouse it looked like a Kilrathi base ( shape wise ). Responce's like "man, do some research or something....." are uncalled for.

spiritplumber sugested a girl she knows how is good for community management. In a few seconds time the sugestion was shot down by you LOAF. And yet at the same time, your yelling orders how things need to be done, how you are the better person for the job. Did you even give Michelle a chance? No you dident. What we see is your positioning yourself in a commanding spot. And people here dont like it. Does it surprise you that people are refusing to work with you & een call you arogant, dispite your efforts.

In my opinion, Michelle being a WC noob, may be the best person for the job. Why? Becouse she isent obsest by the WC Universe, this way, she can keep a open mind & not point the project to what she thinks WC Universe needs to be. Also, in general, women tend to be the better one's when it come's down to communicating.

LOAF, based from a neutral point of view, your best job becouse of your knowhow, is Q&A. You see something that isent right, point it out. But, that's where it needs to end. If spiritplumber add's something, and she feels adiment that it needs to stay that way ( dispite being in contract with the WC universe ), its her right.

So, if she wants to bring in Michelle, give her the chance to proof herself.

spiritplumber is in charge. She is a great coder, and a diplomate at the same time ( something that most programmers dont have ), and she sidesteps the landmine's lots of times already. The fact that most people support here is proof enouf that she is fit for the job. So what she sais or does, goes.

There is no use in this constant power grabbing attempts. Let the project do what's it doing now, slowly building up it's resource's, supporters etc. If you dont agree with the direction spiritplumber is taking WC:Universe, then there is a easy answer to this. Then fork the WC:p project, start your own project with yourself, BradMick in charge. You can still work with the WCU, share models etc, but stop this daim power discussions. The project is starting to get siderailed by it, and it hate to see spiritplumber quit becouse of it.
 
well personaly I think that LOAF is the best candidate for taking up the lead of the project. His knowledge of the Wing Commander, characters, history and so on makes him perfect candidate + he is willing to take up the responsobility. Also do not forget that it does not shrinks Spirit's power. Spirit is the main coder/scripter for the project, the main developer. But the real coordinator of the project should be LOAF, he is the guy who may help to understand how the things should work and lok like.

the prefix Wing Commander before the word "UNIVERSE" makes the game to obey to the rules of Wing Commander series and do not deviate from the original concept, cause do not forget that events take place between wc2 and wc3. So this leaves us with pretty well known rules for the game, cause we know how wc2 and wc3 looked liked and what technologies were there and what things happened and so on...

So if you ask for the credits that would look like this:

CREDITS

Coder / Scripter / AI Programmer
Spiritplumber

Project Coordinator
LOAF

The Rest
.......




do not mix the word leader and coordinator in that case. Coordinator is the person who monitors the things to be going in the right way, the way it should be in order to reflect the reality of the series. LOAF is the guy!

Wing Commander Universe should be a wing commander game, very (almost at 100%) close to the original series. That's my point of view.


But it's up to Spirit to decide the way it should be done, so I think she should give LOAF (and few of us as well) the direct answer on LOAF's question.

Cyb
 
You ( and BradMick also for a part ) both have a vast knowhow of the WC universe, and this is in reality blinding you. Becouse you have this knowhow, you both dont like it that people add things that arent 100% accurate. I mean come on ... spiritplumber added the wrong base for the Kilrathi Super Base ... no biggy ... she added it becouse it looked like a Kilrathi base ( shape wise ). Responce's like "man, do some research or something....." are uncalled for.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure you're putting words in my mouth -- I've never posted anything about a Kilrathi base (to the WCU thread, anyway. I was debating Kilrathi star post design with the boys just last night).

You are assuming that I think a certain way because I know Wing Commander - I argued against this several posts ago.

spiritplumber sugested a girl she knows how is good for community management. In a few seconds time the sugestion was shot down by you LOAF. And yet at the same time, your yelling orders how things need to be done, how you are the better person for the job. Did you even give Michelle a chance? No you dident. What we see is your positioning yourself in a commanding spot. And people here dont like it. Does it surprise you that people are refusing to work with you & een call you arogant, dispite your efforts.

In my opinion, Michelle being a WC noob, may be the best person for the job. Why? Becouse she isent obsest by the WC Universe, this way, she can keep a open mind & not point the project to what she thinks WC Universe needs to be. Also, in general, women tend to be the better one's when it come's down to communicating.
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That's kind of a bizarre, grasping-at-straws defense of someone who's NEVER POSTED HERE OR INTERACTED WITH ANYONE. Do you get that this is an incredibly weird situation? Spirit spends months ranting that people should take her job -- and when someone offers, we're told we should ask someone who has nothing to do with the community, nothing to do with Wing Commander, who we've never met, who through debate on the issue we've *still* never met... And now you're defending someone you've never interacted with based solely on the theoretical shape of their genitals? That's weak.

LOAF, based from a neutral point of view, your best job becouse of your knowhow, is Q&A. You see something that isent right, point it out. But, that's where it needs to end. If spiritplumber add's something, and she feels adiment that it needs to stay that way ( dispite being in contract with the WC universe ), its her right.
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That's not what Q&A is in game development, though. That is my nominal role, and it has been ignored in a blanket, unthinking manner -- as I pointed out above. WHat are you replying to?

spiritplumber is in charge. She is a great coder, and a diplomate at the same time ( something that most programmers dont have ), and she sidesteps the landmine's lots of times already. The fact that most people support here is proof enouf that she is fit for the job. So what she sais or does, goes.
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People who are in charge can answer questions instead of making up meandering stories about roomates to keep their positions. I'm only responding to his request that someone replace him.

There is no use in this constant power grabbing attempts. Let the project do what's it doing now, slowly building up it's resource's, supporters etc. If you dont agree with the direction spiritplumber is taking WC:Universe, then there is a easy answer to this. Then fork the WC:p project, start your own project with yourself, BradMick in charge. You can still work with the WCU, share models etc, but stop this daim power discussions. The project is starting to get siderailed by it, and it hate to see spiritplumber quit becouse of it.
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If Spiritplumber quits because I've answered his own request for a leader, then... eh, I can't even think of a good crazy analogy. If I did, though, rest assured it'd be zany.
 
*sigh*

What a bunch of over-reactive bullshit.

1. Get the facts right. Spirit did not try to make Michelle a leader, just wanted to involve her in the project. Do you want Spirit to apologise for trying to get another person involved in development? Oh, wait, she already has apologised (I certainly wouldn't have).

2. Stop being so sensitive! (Especially LOAF and BradMick.) To work as a team you have to be able to accept a little bit of criticism from time to time. I think you can't deny it's fairly valid criticism that you guys are a little stuck in your WC ways. This isn't a bad thing, because it means you bring a ton of WC experience and knowledge to the table. But it isn't always a good thing because you seem to think that your opinions are far more important than those of others. That's the arrogance and, given how much more work other people are doing on WCU, that's what is rubbing people up the wrong way.

3. Patience is a virtue. Have you done any tangible WCU work, LOAF? I know BradMick works on the models although primarily for Privateer Remake, and that you are the WC oracle. Being an expert affords you respect. It does not afford you decision making. You have to be constructive and patient. Nobody is rejecting your suggestions, it just takes time to do things. Given that the developers do so voluntarily, it's only fair to accept they work on the things that they desire. They will do so in a manner that is as WC-like as possible because *shock, horror* WCU developers are WC fans. Your advice is invaluable.

4. There is no leader. However, that doesn't mean there can't be cooperation. If LOAF continues to assert his WC knowledge, it will heavily influence the development. If Spirit and thehawk continue to code, the game will progress. If BradMick and Cyberion continue (to oversee) modelling, the content will improve. Why does somebody need to be a leader?

5. Remain civil. Flame wars benefit nobody.

6. Nobody wants to push LOAF and BradMick away. My understanding is simply that we just don't want to be steamrollered over by you two, which you seem to do without really knowing it. Being assertive is different to just waltzing in and pushing others aside, kittie style. People want you guys to be involved. They just don't want to be ordered about. Treat others with humility and respect and you will get it back in kind.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
It's just frustrating. I've raised a million legitimate design issues -- I've fully explained wholly legitimate theories on gameplay and how it works and should be developed. The only response I've recieved from the current "team" is snarky comments about how crazy it is that I'd believe a Wing Commander fan project might somehow reference Wing Commander.
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If you believe that, you're deluded. Nobody wholly objected nor was particularly snarky. There might have been slight debate, but nothing more.

Nobody, NOBODY, wishes to eschew Wing Commander from a game called Wing Commander Universe.

You need to sit back, take a deep breath, and think objectively for a little before you continue to incite this flame fest.

Spirit, please lock this thread. You have the power, use it!
 
I agree with LOAF and Brad on this one. I don't think this is some petty power grab by either of them as many of you people seem to think. LOAF, Brad, and others are constantly pointing out inconsistencies in various fan projects, but their input is largely ignored simply because its more convenient to be wrong. Something as simple as calling the WC3 destroyer by its correct name instead of the Sheffield class has become a large issue. Why? Because the members of the project decided that it was easier.

This is the mindset I think the community needs to stay away from. To go against WC canon just because you are lazy is a horrible way to go about making a WC mod. Adding things never before seen in WC is fine as well, as long as you follow the continuity of the series. Look at Standoff for instance, an excellent game to play. They created a story based on a WC novel, modded a WC game, added their own things, and created a wonderful game to play. All the while keeping with the continuity of the series. Its not that hard to do.

All in all, while it remains to be seen who is best suited to run this project, LOAF and Brad have done nothing but try to help the WC community. Yet you people not only ignore their advice, you attack them for giving it. That is a piss poor attitude all around.
 
3. Patience is a virtue. Have you done any tangible WCU work, LOAF? I know BradMick works on the models although primarily for Privateer Remake, and that you are the WC oracle. Being an expert affords you respect. It does not afford you decision making. You have to be constructive and patient. Nobody is rejecting your suggestions, it just takes time to do things. Given that the developers do so voluntarily, it's only fair to accept they work on the things that they desire. They will do so in a manner that is as WC-like as possible because *shock, horror* WCU developers are WC fans. Your advice is invaluable.
Click to expand...

People *are* rejecting my suggestions, though, which was the premise for the dashed post you're replying to -- my legitimate design issues are being ignored and insulted based upon the laughably ignorant reasoning that I must have some kind of secret "canon" agenda because I like Wing Commander. That's just wrong for the 'Wing Commander Universe' project. Spirit has deliberately created this culture, which is one of the reasons I already cited that we need a change in management.

I am responding to a very specific request from Spirit -- he has said time and time again that he'd like someone to take over the project. As I have said over and over again, it's not an attempt to "grab power". Painting it as such will not work. Nothing is as simple as 'us versus them'. I think the project should be better run and I can do it - I am happy to remain a simple critic if Spirit was not serious about that request... but we need to have a clear response on his part.

(As for what I've done for the project so far... well, I designed the universe map -- which, per my understanding, is one of the only things that's been implemented so far.)
 
charlieg said:
4. There is no leader. However, that doesn't mean there can't be cooperation. If LOAF continues to assert his WC knowledge, it will heavily influence the development. If Spirit and thehawk continue to code, the game will progress. If BradMick and Cyberion continue (to oversee) modelling, the content will improve. Why does somebody need to be a leader?
Click to expand...


I have to disagree here. The project need the core. The person who is responsible for gathering and providing the information about the project, keep the track of the things need to be done, creating the list of the desired elements, supervising the work, kicks some butts and get kicked by the fans. ;)

teh person who may create the database, the control command for the project. That way the project will get the full support of the community. You think I did the website, tried to gather the info, made the status (progress) file, cause i had nothing to do? No i did that cause i saw that those are the things that need to be done at the first place. Working together means working in the right way. After all that's Spiritplumber who will get the main credits ;) something like "A Spiritplumber Game" in the first second of the intro i'm doing.


Also that would be cool to name the team somehow. WCU developer team or something other?
 
Yes! No fan project has used the community properly yet -- I think this one could. Once we have a firm goal, we can promote it through the CIC's front page and the regular forums. Make the team believe in an objective and the fans believe that it's possible and you'll have a strong project all around.
 
Bandit I think what is pissing people off most is your defensiveness. You have to stop it. You cannot as a good leader post emotionaly. As a leader you must measure all your words and speak only to promote a goal (in public). On some occations I have seen you do this. On most I have not. And the only time you can be arrogant is if your that damn good and the people you are in charge of are getting paid. You are not that good, and I don't see any paychecks being handed out. This is a FOSS project, you MUST treat it like a FOSS project. I have never ever, seen Linus Torvalds act arrogant, he is just so damn good at his job that he dosn't have to. RMS was arrogant and now we dont even bother calling it GNU/Linux anymore.
 
People love bigger than life characters -- why do we remember who The Fatman but not Nenad Vugrinec? The Privateer music is probably technically much better than the music in the original game -- but Fatman is a bigger than life, arrogant character.

Why do you know Richard Garriott and not Scott Phillips? Same reason -- Garriott was a crazy character who owned a castle and talked about how amazing Ultima was.
 
"A leader is someone who inspires others to accomplish the impossible."

I can't remember where I heard that...
Probably when I was in the military.

One of the outfits I was in had a motto:
"LEAD!
If you can't lead:
FOLLOW!
If you can't follow:
GET OUT OF THE WAY!
'Cause I'm coming through!"

Which is also a cute way of saying that a leader is one who takes charge, and gets things done.
As far as this project goes, IMHO, that's spiritplumber.
 
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