Origins of the Banshee II?

WCX

Rear Admiral
I was looking over my collection of ship pictures again and I noticed something rather interesting:

Look at the UBW Banshee II fighter.
wc4banshee.png


Now, if you remove the side pylons from the wings, and replace the lower pylon with a gatling neutron cannon, you almost have a CF-117 Rapier.

greenrapier2.gif


greenrapier1.jpg



The Rapier was a solid enough design to serve the Confederation for 127 years, so could the Union of Border Worlds have been inspired by Confed’s funny-looking but sturdy (and probably inexpensive) fighter when they needed original designs, or could the Banshee IIs be little more than overhauled and modified Rapiers?
 

RogueBanshee

Rear Admiral
Maybe we have the Banshee I and Banshee II mixed up. I don't know if there's anything offical that states that the UBW Banshee is the Banshee II so perhaps the UBW Banshee is the actually Banshee I and the Armada Banshee is actually the Banshee II. If so the Banshee I and Rapier I could be from the same era.
 

Eder

Mr. Standoff
Looking at higher res Banshee art, you will see that the cockpit region is built completely different. All they have in common is the overall shape from top biew, after you remove some of the Banshee's pylons.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Maybe we have the Banshee I and Banshee II mixed up. I don't know if there's anything offical that states that the UBW Banshee is the Banshee II so perhaps the UBW Banshee is the actually Banshee I and the Armada Banshee is actually the Banshee II. If so the Banshee I and Rapier I could be from the same era.

The Armada Banshee is certainly newer... but there's also no indication that either one gets a numeral. The ships the Border Worlds flies are called Banshees by a completely different nation. We know nothing about their history and the only thing that ever suggests their use by the Confederation military is their appearance as trainers in the 'good' ending.

(As for the image comparison... I think it's kind of a stretch.)
 

Farbourne

Rear Admiral
Also, remember, similar appearances do not necessarily imply that something is based on the same design. To (approximately) quote C.S. Lewis from Out of the Silent Planet:

He was reassured to see that the [alien] boat looked much like a terrestrial boat, but on further reflections wondered "What else could a boat be shaped like?"

The contemporary F-15, F-14, FA-18, Mig-29, etc. all have similar appearances--twin engines mounted below and beside the cockpit, more or less delta-shaped wings, conical nose with a bubble canopy, and a twin tail--and yet these are completely different designs by different nations. None was merely an "overhaul" of another. They have that shape because it is the best shape for a fighter jet that our current technology is able to identify and build.

And to cite a counter-example from Wing Commander--look at the WC1 and WC2 variants of the Rapier II. These craft, while based on the same frame, have some striking differences in appearance--yet this is a case of one fighter just being an overhaul of another.

That said, certain technologies do require certain shapes of components. See the above example of contemporary jet fighters. For another example, all WWII era radial engine fighters had a certain shape of nose (P-47, FW-190), while V- and inline engine fighters (P-40, P-51, Me-109) had a different shaped nose. So maybe the similarities you've pointed out between the Banshee and the old Rapier, especially around the engine region, imply that they may have used similar sorts of technology for their power plant, that was different from technology used for many other fighters. Certainly if that technology was very reliable, I could see the BW being interested. Of course, this is mere speculation.

We know nothing about their history and the only thing that ever suggests their use by the Confederation military is their appearance as trainers in the 'good' ending.

Is that even the Confed military that is using them as trainers? I didn't pay that much attention when I first played through the game (well, the second time I played through...the first time I got the bad ending...stupid Hawk), but I assumed that they were trainers for the Border Worlds military. I didn't figure that Blair, Panther, Maniac, et. al would just have been welcomed back into Confed after "betraying them" and especially shooting down Confed pilots, even after being vindicated at Tolwyn's trial. And after all they'd been through, I didn't figure Blair, Panther, etc. would really want to live out their restful retirements flying for Confed.

On the other hand, we know that Blair and Hawk do end up back with Confed (from Prophecy) eventually, so maybe I just wasn't thinking clearly.

Does the UBW get absorbed back into Confed after WC4, or do they retain their independence?
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
The Union of Border Worlds remained independant; they're listed as a separate political entity on the 2680 Wing Commander Universe Map.

The instructor scene does seem to indicate that all the characters present returned to Confederation service -- they're all wearing Confederation uniforms (and the Intrepid is orbiting Jupiter.)
 

frostytheplebe

Seventh Part of the Seal
Kudos to you sir. Your findings were quite interesting... that being said, I took the Banshee apart and did a side by side, even tried to fire a design of the Gatling Neutron in place and... I have to agree with Loaf that its way too much of a strech.

The Cockpit is different, and unlike other gun mounting, I don't see the Gatling Neutron as being interchangable, more likely it made up a good portion of the hull of the Rapier.

Finally, who would have refit and rebuilt this fighter?

Confed? Why, they had newer fighters well on the way to replacing the old Rapiers? Also to rebuild all of these surplus rapiers would take time, money, and construction facilities that would be better used elswhere.

BWS? That really doesn't make sense. If they got thier hands on the old Rapiers, they probably would have just used them as is with a few small additions they made themselves. But to completely overhaul the fighter with a new loadout, different weapon systems, is something the BWS had niether time nor money for.

So while your idea is quite interesting, I'm afraid it falls flat when logistics come into play... sorry! :p
 

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WCX

Rear Admiral
Eh, wasn’t trying to move mountains. :rolleyes:
I suppose I was merely putting forth the idea that they might share some design linage, such as the case with the Hellcat and the Tigershark.
 

NinjaLA

Alex Von T.
Its at least possible that they come from the same ship manufacturer or a pair of competing manufacturers, but since there is no verifiable source for either of these ships.. its sort of a question with no answer.
 

Kevin Caccamo

Rear Admiral
Kudos to you sir. Your findings were quite interesting... that being said, I took the Banshee apart and did a side by side, even tried to fire a design of the Gatling Neutron in place and... I have to agree with Loaf that its way too much of a strech.

The Cockpit is different, and unlike other gun mounting, I don't see the Gatling Neutron as being interchangable, more likely it made up a good portion of the hull of the Rapier.

Finally, who would have refit and rebuilt this fighter?

Confed? Why, they had newer fighters well on the way to replacing the old Rapiers? Also to rebuild all of these surplus rapiers would take time, money, and construction facilities that would be better used elswhere.

BWS? That really doesn't make sense. If they got thier hands on the old Rapiers, they probably would have just used them as is with a few small additions they made themselves. But to completely overhaul the fighter with a new loadout, different weapon systems, is something the BWS had niether time nor money for.

So while your idea is quite interesting, I'm afraid it falls flat when logistics come into play... sorry! :p

Hey, where did you get that green and white Rapier from? One of the ports of the Wing Commander games?

WCX said:
I was looking over my collection of ship pictures again and I noticed something rather interesting:

Look at the UBW Banshee II fighter.

Now, if you remove the side pylons from the wings, and replace the lower pylon with a gatling neutron cannon, you almost have a CF-117 Rapier.

The Rapier was a solid enough design to serve the Confederation for 127 years, so could the Union of Border Worlds have been inspired by Confed’s funny-looking but sturdy (and probably inexpensive) fighter when they needed original designs, or could the Banshee IIs be little more than overhauled and modified Rapiers?

Hehe, nice find. :)
 

WCX

Rear Admiral
I joke which (in my opinion) makes the movie’s design more palatable. I could definitely see these guys flying around in my old copy of WC1.

While on the topic, Mr. Eder, could I challenge you to make a similar model of the KF-100 Dralthi?

(Head start included)
KF-100.jpg
 

frostytheplebe

Seventh Part of the Seal
I joke which (in my opinion) makes the movie’s design more palatable. I could definitely see these guys flying around in my old copy of WC1.

While on the topic, Mr. Eder, could I challenge you to make a similar model of the KF-100 Dralthi?

(Head start included)
KF-100.jpg

Perhaps thats what the Rapier I looked like BEFORE they got "beat to hell."
 

WCX

Rear Admiral
What I was subtlety and politely trying to ask was could the creator of this image:
greenrapier2.gif


Please make a similar one with the KF-100 (whose design is all kinds of kick-ass). :rolleyes:
 

Eder

Mr. Standoff
That would involve making a whole new model and such, I mean, I had a good excuse for making a Rapier I model (the CIC's birthday) then I just did a quick retexture of it... making a whole new Dralthi is kind of not in my plans for the moment, I'm afraid. Maybe when I have a good excuse for it again :p
 
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