Hawk's Background

Farbourne

Rear Admiral
Hey all. I'm new to this site, but people here seem pretty interesting and well read. I have a question about a seeming inconsistency in the games that's always bugged me. It has to do with Hawk (Jacob Manley).

The question: Where and when (and on what ship) did Hawk serve with Iceman and Blair?

We know that Hawk served with both Iceman and Blair, and that he was serving with both of them at the time of Iceman's death (from WCP). Iceman was alive at the end of SM2 but dead by the beginning of WC2 (he is not included as a survivor of the Tiger's Claw either at the Piano-bar scene near the beginning of WC2 nor by Jazz on his list of people from the Claw to kill).

However, Hawk is also not mentioned as a survivor of the Claw in WC2, which implies that he never served on the Claw. The fact that Jazz doesn't include him on his vendetta list definitely implies that he was not on the Claw at the time of Thor's hammer, and he couldn't have served on the Claw earlier and been transferred off, because Iceman was still alive at that time. It's possible that he could have been transferred to the Claw after Thor's hammer, like Doomsday, but then why wouldn't Doomsday include him as a "Claw Survivor", as he does himself?

But if Hawk was never on the Claw, when did he serve with Blair and Iceman, since Blair was courtmarshalled and assigned to Caernarvon shortly after the Claw was destroyed, and Iceman was dead by the time Blair got off Caernarvon?

My best guess is that Hawk was on the Austin, and that Blair and Iceman flew off the Austin (presumably while it was escaping from K'Tithrak Mang) for a few days/weeks before the court marshall, and that's when Iceman bought it. Does anyone else have any thoughts?
 

Mace

Vice Admiral
AFAIK, he served on the tiger's claw. blair only served on the claw before his demotion after the tiger's claw destruction.

in WC4, blair pointed out both panther and hawk, and was not referring to the tiger's claw.

in prophecy, there is mention of bringing iceman's pod in, and hawk also claims to be a pilot, as he was in distress and his wing commander, iceman, had to "kill a clan of kats" to keep him alive.

the correct this: the tiger's claw had a 104 fighter compliment, you only meet ten pilots, but there were a lot more.
 

Farbourne

Rear Admiral
Except, if Hawk was on the Tiger's claw, why doesn't WC2 include him as a "survivor" of the Claw.

In an early WC2 scene, Blair enters the rec-room and meets Angel, Spirit, Jazz, and Doomsday. Spirit? makes a comment about them being the "survivors of the Tiger's Claw", and Doomsday adds that "all the need is Paladin and Maniac, so they can all die together". Later in the game, when Jazz is gloating to Angel, he says "I swore I'd kill everyone on that damn ship (referring to the Claw). Spirit was so easy. I just had you, Blair, Paladin, and Maniac..." (He presumably omits Doomsday because Doomsday and he transferred to the Claw during the Firekkan Crusade, after Thor's hammer). These two passages clearly imply that the ONLY people who had served on the Claw (at least at the time of K'Tithrak Mang and the destruction of Goddard, when Iceman was still alive) that were still alive at the time of WC2 were Blair, Spirit, Angel, Paladin, Maniac, and Jazz and Doomsday.
 

Mace

Vice Admiral
in the battle with jazz, on the losing path, he lists even a larger number of casualties, these also not include hawk. or any other crew member serving on the claw.

by the canon, hawk was on the tiger's claw, prophecy confirms on multiple occasions,
if you are trying to find some reason he could not be on the tiger's claw. well, the writers say he was, so he was.
 

DyNaMiX

Spaceman
Farbourne said:
Except, if Hawk was on the Tiger's claw, why doesn't WC2 include him as a "survivor" of the Claw.

In an early WC2 scene, Blair enters the rec-room and meets Angel, Spirit, Jazz, and Doomsday. Spirit? makes a comment about them being the "survivors of the Tiger's Claw", and Doomsday adds that "all the need is Paladin and Maniac, so they can all die together". Later in the game, when Jazz is gloating to Angel, he says "I swore I'd kill everyone on that damn ship (referring to the Claw). Spirit was so easy. I just had you, Blair, Paladin, and Maniac..." (He presumably omits Doomsday because Doomsday and he transferred to the Claw during the Firekkan Crusade, after Thor's hammer). These two passages clearly imply that the ONLY people who had served on the Claw (at least at the time of K'Tithrak Mang and the destruction of Goddard, when Iceman was still alive) that were still alive at the time of WC2 were Blair, Spirit, Angel, Paladin, Maniac, and Jazz and Doomsday.


Don't quote me exactly but I'm POSITIVE someone said that Hawk was working in the comm room or the 'tower' on the flight deck or something like that. So Jazz would have omitted him since he wasn't a pilot at the time.
 

Mace

Vice Admiral
Well, hawk did fly, he was iceman's wingman at a given time.

Actually, since he has been around that long he would have the same age as maniac or blair.
 

Sarty

Rear Admiral
Just because he wasn't in Jazz's list doesn't mean he wasn't on the Tiger's Claw. Hunter isn't in the list either, and as per Fleet Action, was transferred off on a 2 week furlough only 1 day before the TC got hit. Hawk could have been transferred off sometime in between Goddard and K'Tithrak Mang as well.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
This has been done a lot of times since 1998. You could try to dig out old debates on alt.games.wing-commander.
 

Ijuin

Admiral
I think it's a retcon problem. Hawk wasn't written in as a character until WC4, so naturally there is not going to be any mention of him in materials published before that.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
The question: Where and when (and on what ship) did Hawk serve with Iceman and Blair?

Whew, haven't had to think about this one in a while.

First, note that Hawk doesn't actually claim to have served with Blair and he doesn't actually claim to have served on the Tiger's Claw.

Now, that said, the latter is true: he *did* serve on the Tiger's Claw, according to Origin's Official Guide to Wing Commander Prophecy (the former is also true, of course, since they were both on the Intrepid in 2673). Hawk enlisted in the Space Force in the early 2650s - his first assignment was as a Communications Tech onboard the Tiger's Claw. Iceman took note of Hawk's dedication and reccomended him for Officer Candidacy School. Hawk left the Tiger's Claw for OCS and then Flight School. From this point on, Hawk and Iceman were good friends who maintained a regular correspondance.

Hawk did not return to the Tiger's Claw as a pilot and Iceman did not die there at K'tithrak Mang. Iceman appears as one of the survivors in the Wing Commander I & II Ultimate Strategy Guide, leading surviving fighters to the TCS Austin. His son's biography in the Prophecy Guide bears this out, putting his death around April or May 2656 (the Tiger's Claw was destroyed in February).

This is the point where he flies with a newly minted 2nd Lt. Manley. We know that the Tiger's Claw survivors flew for a brief period onboard the TCS Austin before being reassigned... in all likelyhood, that's where Hawk's "first mission" story comes in:

Hawk: Blair. You're still blaming yourself for what happened. It's tearing you up inside. I can see it. Are you having nightmares about him yet? Sit down, Lieutenant. You know, on one of my first missions in the last war, I lost three wingmen, including two bunk mates. I was ready to sign for a psych discharge. I was a wreck. Couldn't sleep. Couldn't eat. Just kept seeing their faces every time I closed my eyes. This Major took me aside. He said, 'They're dead and you're not. Get used to it.'

Casey: Yeah, easy for him to say!

Hawk: Yeah. But not so easy for him to sign on as my wingman. Which he did! Next mission out, he's got my six. I'm not in the groove yet. He had to kill a clan of Cats until I got myself together.

Casey: Who was it? Blair?

Hawk: Your father.

Iceman is then reassigned to another station -- one that has him flying "deep space patrol in the B'shriss system" several months later. Hawk is *not* serving with him when he dies... he isn't actually involved in the story he tells about Blair finding the body (the specifics of which are unknown, given Blair's non combat position at that point in the timeline).


We know that Hawk served with both Iceman and Blair, and that he was serving with both of them at the time of Iceman's death (from WCP). Iceman was alive at the end of SM2 but dead by the beginning of WC2 (he is not included as a survivor of the Tiger's Claw either at the Piano-bar scene near the beginning of WC2 nor by Jazz on his list of people from the Claw to kill).

However, Hawk is also not mentioned as a survivor of the Claw in WC2, which implies that he never served on the Claw. The fact that Jazz doesn't include him on his vendetta list definitely implies that he was not on the Claw at the time of Thor's hammer, and he couldn't have served on the Claw earlier and been transferred off, because Iceman was still alive at that time. It's possible that he could have been transferred to the Claw after Thor's hammer, like Doomsday, but then why wouldn't Doomsday include him as a "Claw Survivor", as he does himself?

Hawk was a lowly communications tech on the Tiger's Claw several years before it was involved in Jazz's brother's death. Jazz was interested mainly in the pilots he knew from the ship -- not everyone who ever served there... he never talked about going after Tolwyn, Doomsday, Sparks, etc. even though they were all assigned to the Tiger's Claw at *some* point in her history.

Jazz seems, in fact, to be targeting the people who managed to survive his treachery at K'Tithrak Mang rather than those people who were on the carrier at Goddard. He makes no mention of Hunter or Vanderman, both of whom would have been on the carrier at Goddard but were not there for the stealth fighter attack...
 

Farbourne

Rear Admiral
Hmmm, thanks for clearing that up. It had always bugged me. What sources are all those data from? I don't own the Ultimate Strategy Guides--did it all come from those?

I never figured Jazz was after every single tech who had ever served on the Claw. I always assumed he was after just the personnell who were on board at the time of the destruction of Goddard--but that he can't possibly have kept track of every person who was or wasn't, so he was mainly interested in killing the people he knew personally that had been on board at the time (i.e. the Pilots, along with Col. Halcyon). I wasn't under the impression that Tolwyn was on the Claw at the time, because some piece of fiction that came with SM1 mentioned a communique from then-Vice Admiral Tolwyn to the Tiger's Claw, unless I'm mis-remembering.

I always figured that the reason why he never mentioned Hunter was that Hunter was dead by the time that WC2 unfolds, and that Jazz didn't have anything to do with his death. (I don't know the specifics of how Hunter died, but friends who have read the novels have told me it happened in one of them, during the rebellion of Ghorar Khar, which definitely occurred before WC2).

Thanks for the info.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Hmmm, thanks for clearing that up. It had always bugged me. What sources are all those data from? I don't own the Ultimate Strategy Guides--did it all come from those?

For the most part -- Wing Commander I & II: The Ultimate Strategy Guide (Harrison) is written in prose just like a novel... and it details the events surrounding the actual destruction of the Tiger's Claw in that manner. Origin's Official Guide to Wing Commander Prophecy (McCubbin) is an ordinary strategy guide, but it also includes fairly detailed biographies for the characters from that game that bring up a lot of little bits and pieces of their early lives/careers.

There's some bits and pieces of Hawk's life story in the Wing Commander IV novelization, too.

I never figured Jazz was after every single tech who had ever served on the Claw. I always assumed he was after just the personnell who were on board at the time of the destruction of Goddard--but that he can't possibly have kept track of every person who was or wasn't, so he was mainly interested in killing the people he knew personally that had been on board at the time (i.e. the Pilots, along with Col. Halcyon). I wasn't under the impression that Tolwyn was on the Claw at the time, because some piece of fiction that came with SM1 mentioned a communique from then-Vice Admiral Tolwyn to the Tiger's Claw, unless I'm mis-remembering.

You're correct that Tolwyn was not aboard for The Secret Missions... he left the carrier immediately before Operation Thor's Hammer started (possibly *because* the ship was going off on a suicide mission).

The communique you're thinking of is for Secret Missions 2, though -- the Tolwyn character hadn't been created yet when the original addon was developed. The communique (space e-mail?) included with the original Secret Missions was signed "Adm. Deke Stover".

I always figured that the reason why he never mentioned Hunter was that Hunter was dead by the time that WC2 unfolds, and that Jazz didn't have anything to do with his death. (I don't know the specifics of how Hunter died, but friends who have read the novels have told me it happened in one of them, during the rebellion of Ghorar Khar, which definitely occurred before WC2).

Hunter actually dies about a year after Wing Commander 2 ends, in 2668 immediately before the Battle of Earth (if you've played the fan game Standoff, it's an element of that same campaign).

By the way, I never thought Sparks served on the Claw. The chief tech there was definitely male...

Sparks served on the 'Claw briefly during Secret Missions 2, replacing another technician (Jimmy Cafrelli) whose expertise with Kilrathi technology was being used on the defected Fralthi. Sparks was fresh out of technician school at that point, though, and not a Chief Technician yet (This is detailed in the first novel, Freedom Flight).

The technician who greets you when you return to the 'Claw in Wing Commander I is male... but the only person ever identified as being the carrier's Chief Tech was female -- Maya McEdence from Wing Commander Academy.
 

Mace

Vice Admiral
correct me if i'm wrong, but in the losing path of WC2, didn't blair include hunter on the casualties list when he gunned jazz down and confronted him with his actions?
 

Iceblade

Admiral
But you do have to consider that most games keep to one track being the actually track to continue the franchise from. I don't know, though, about WC1 and 2.

eg:
Warcraft- orcs win Azeroth falls
Warcraft 2- continues from the fall of Azeroth and ends with the humans winning and following the orcs to their homeworld
etc.
 

AD

Finder of things, Doer of stuff
Iceblade said:
But you do have to consider that most games keep to one track being the actually track to continue the franchise from. I don't know, though, about WC1 and 2.

eg:
Warcraft- orcs win Azeroth falls
Warcraft 2- continues from the fall of Azeroth and ends with the humans winning and following the orcs to their homeworld
etc.


Hehehe. Odd you bringing up the other "WC1,2" and all.


Stiil, I don't understand what you're getting at. Wing commander 2 picks up shortly after the end of wc1-sm1. It starts with the Tiger's Claw getting iced by stealth fighters and then Blair getting court-martialed. There isnt enough evidence to convict blair so he gets assigned to a desk for most of ten years and eventially makes he way back to a pilot for the ISS on Caernavon at the beginging of the main part of WC2.


How is this important to the discussion of Hawk? WC 1 and 2 were obviously made before 3 ,4. infact wc1 through secret ops were all pretty much chronological. The exceptions are the tv show and the movie which were both prequels, and some of the novels. Note that none of those are games, so you don't really have a point here. Even the Privateer 3 script is set after Secret ops
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
How is this important to the discussion of Hawk? WC 1 and 2 were obviously made before 3 ,4. infact wc1 through secret ops were all pretty much chronological. The exceptions are the tv show and the movie which were both prequels, and some of the novels. Note that none of those are games, so you don't really have a point here. Even the Privateer 3 script is set after Secret ops

I think he's referring specifically to the sub-discussion about Hunter being explicitly listed as killed in the losing path to Wing Commander II.
 

Don

Rear Admiral
"The question: Where and when (and on what ship) did Hawk serve with Iceman and Blair?"


I swear Hawk is from the borderworlds and that he never fought in the Terran confed military...
 

Sarty

Rear Admiral
Hawk is from the border worlds, Mylon 2 to be precise, but the Union of Border Worlds wasn't a sovereign nation until after the Kilrathi War. He fought alongside Iceman and Blair on the Tiger's Claw as stated above, and he even rejoined Confed at one point hence his posting on the Midway.
 
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