Hakagas

Farbourne

Rear Admiral
Just finished reading Fleet Action. Good book.

Anyway, it brings to mind a question. The Kilrathi constructed twelve Hakaga-class supercarriers. Only five were involved in the Battle of Earth (the other seven either weren't completed or didn't have enough pilots in time to launch the assault). Of those five, three were destroyed, and two retreated heavily damaged (albeit at the cost of most of their fighter wings).

The Cats also had, according to Fleet Action, something like a dozen other fleet carriers (presumably Snakeirs or something like that) and their normal scores of cruisers and destroyers.

Post-battle, Confed had a grand total of two fleet carriers operational (at least in the vicinity of Earth...I guess they may have had others in far-flung reaches that couldn't get there in time)...both heavily damaged (indeed, one, the Concordia, would be lost shortly thereafter). Also, they presumably had a number of lighter carriers (escort carriers and light carriers...Yorktowns and such).

Still, it seems that post battle, the Kilrathi still had an overwhelming advantage. Why didn't the nine surviving Hakagas simply decend on Confed and end the war within the year, once their fighters had been restocked (which Thrakhath implied in the book would take about a year)? I assume this is part of the rationale why things are so bad for Confed in WC3, but it seems like it should never even have gotten that far? Was there a major revolution in technology that negated the Hakagas and drew the war on? Did the "stealth dreadnoughts" that Tolwyn mentions (I assume he didn't mean the Behemoth) stave off the Hakagas? Did the Kilrathi take too long recovering the pilot losses? Did Confed manage to bring a bunch of new ships online quickly and miraculously?

Is there any further mention in the canonical material as to what happened to the other nine Hakagas, and how they factored into the subsequent war?
 
Recycled into Hvar'kann parts?

I'm guessing that the fact that they were crushed despite massive superiority during the assault to Earth made them less than worthy in the eyes of Kilrathi fleet leaders. In a culture where defeat=death it might make since to scrap a ship type after a defeat writ large (especially if there weren't any servicable at the time the decision was made).
 
Anyway, it brings to mind a question. The Kilrathi constructed twelve Hakaga-class supercarriers. Only five were involved in the Battle of Earth (the other seven either weren't completed or didn't have enough pilots in time to launch the assault). Of those five, three were destroyed, and two retreated heavily damaged (albeit at the cost of most of their fighter wings).

The Cats also had, according to Fleet Action, something like a dozen other fleet carriers (presumably Snakeirs or something like that) and their normal scores of cruisers and destroyers.

The first part is partial correct. They didn't have enough pilots to stock both the Hakaga fleet and most of the normal carriers. They had roughly twenty "standard" carriers at the time of BOT (even though in WCPedia we decided to go with Battle of Earth since that's what the sources tell us). 10 took part in the Kilrathi offensive (4 with the 2nd fleet that went with the Hakagas, 3 with the 4th fleet going to the Landreich and 3 with the 1st fleet in reserve). The other ~10 had been stripped of pilots to man the Hakagas and thus took no part in the actions.

Post-battle, Confed had a grand total of two fleet carriers operational (at least in the vicinity of Earth...I guess they may have had others in far-flung reaches that couldn't get there in time)...both heavily damaged (indeed, one, the Concordia, would be lost shortly thereafter). Also, they presumably had a number of lighter carriers (escort carriers and light carriers...Yorktowns and such).

There were still some others that had been unable to be made ready for battle. As well as hulls that would have still been on the slips and those in shakedown.

Still, it seems that post battle, the Kilrathi still had an overwhelming advantage. Why didn't the nine surviving Hakagas simply decend on Confed and end the war within the year, once their fighters had been restocked (which Thrakhath implied in the book would take about a year)? I assume this is part of the rationale why things are so bad for Confed in WC3, but it seems like it should never even have gotten that far? Was there a major revolution in technology that negated the Hakagas and drew the war on? Did the "stealth dreadnoughts" that Tolwyn mentions (I assume he didn't mean the Behemoth) stave off the Hakagas? Did the Kilrathi take too long recovering the pilot losses? Did Confed manage to bring a bunch of new ships online quickly and miraculously?

The Kilrathi had failed twice to break Confed with a direct attack on Sol system. (2654 and 2668) The Kilrathi Grand Fleet (the massive armada we see during WC3...a while back we actually tried to count the number of ships we saw in the video it's a thread somewhere...) was prepared to strike at Sol a third time when Blair and the Temblor bomb showed up.

The Grand Fleet was either destroyed, later surrendered and scrapped or fled. The seven other Hakagas are not mentioned again in the canon, but one would like to think they were in Kilrah orbit when the t-bomb went off.

I think early-2669 can be likened to 1943 in the Pacific in WWII. Both sides had exerted their prewar strength in the battles of 1942. The USN didn't have a major offensive action until the invasion of Tarawa and Makin Atolls in November 1943. Both sides needed time to rebuild their strength, although in WC Tolwyn wanted to follow BOT with strikes into Kilrathi space with remaining forces to catch them off balance but that was nixed by HQ.

Is there any further mention in the canonical material as to what happened to the other nine Hakagas, and how they factored into the subsequent war?

5 to Earth, 7 under construction. 12 in total. Nothing mentions them again. The best we can assume is they were commissioned and were either lost or surrendered at Kilrah.
 
Good thread!

Still, it seems that post battle, the Kilrathi still had an overwhelming advantage. Why didn't the nine surviving Hakagas simply decend on Confed and end the war within the year, once their fighters had been restocked (which Thrakhath implied in the book would take about a year)? I assume this is part of the rationale why things are so bad for Confed in WC3, but it seems like it should never even have gotten that far? Was there a major revolution in technology that negated the Hakagas and drew the war on? Did the "stealth dreadnoughts" that Tolwyn mentions (I assume he didn't mean the Behemoth) stave off the Hakagas? Did the Kilrathi take too long recovering the pilot losses? Did Confed manage to bring a bunch of new ships online quickly and miraculously?

The current timelines* put Fleet Action in late 2668, possibly going as far as through the first days of 2669. That means that the war is actually over before the rest of the Hakaga fleet was supposed to be ready (an additional eleven months, per Jukaga's last estimate). That also rules out Tolwyn's "Omega" ships, which were a year to eighteen months away from being ready.

So--my guess is that what we're seeing at the end of Wing Commander III *is* the Kilrathi getting ready to launch a second force that includes the second wave of Hakagas (and the new dreadnaughts).

* - Which we should talk about. I believe when we last put together a Fleet Action timeline based on when the Sivar-Eshrad is suspected to be and to allow enough time for the year after End Run... which unfortunately ignores a big reference in the Armada manual. Could there be a better way?

Is there any further mention in the canonical material as to what happened to the other nine Hakagas, and how they factored into the subsequent war?

Not *really*--the fact that they exist is acknowledged a few times (in Voices of War and False Colors), but we never hear the story of what happens to them specifically.

Both sides needed time to rebuild their strength, although in WC Tolwyn wanted to follow BOT with strikes into Kilrathi space with remaining forces to catch them off balance but that was nixed by HQ.

We're told at one point (WC3 novel, I think) that the Confederation is building new ships but that they're all being kept to defend the homeworld. Presumably that makes Earth a tougher nut to crack (Thrakhath in 2669 would need to plan his campaign with a stronger force than the one that faild the year earlier as he now lacks surprise... and he wants to be sure he finishes the action with forces available to fight the Mantu).
 
We're told at one point (WC3 novel, I think) that the Confederation is building new ships but that they're all being kept to defend the homeworld.

I always fanonised that this was a reference to the Vesuvius-class which we eventually see in 2672. Logically, after the war ended in 2669, the production of new ships mentioned in Heart Of The Tiger would be less rushed, especially with the reduction in forces and services cuts mentioned in WC4.

Hence it would make sense that the Vesuvius class carriers were a wartime project, too near to completion to scrap given the victory over the Kilrathi. Why would it make sense to cut thousands of Confed personell, and then introduce a pair of brand new supercarriers?

Either that or, of course, the theory that this was all part of Tolwyn's vision of a streamlined, hi-tech military with fewer, but much better trained (and eventually genetically modified) service personell. Maybe the Vesuvius project was a product of a cuts, rather than a contradition to them. A new, more efficient direction for the Confederation, based upon fewer, but more elite soldiers.

I prefer to think the Vesuvius class was made for use on the Cats.
 
We're told at one point (WC3 novel, I think) that the Confederation is building new ships but that they're all being kept to defend the homeworld.

I think the same. We all know that the Lexington Class Heavy Carrier goes in Production, the ships names after American Presidents. On page 11 of the Victory Streak you see a few names of ships we never see in action but know they there:

TCS Lexington (Lexington Class)
TCS Centurion (Waterloo Class) - Source : WC2 Cutscene
TCS Armageddon (Confederation Class) Source Fansites, also the TCS Apocalypse
TCS Kennedy (Lexington Class)
TCS Saratoga (think its a Concordia Class - we know the name from Fleet Actions
TCS Lincoln (Lexington Class)

all these ships are not in the frontline - they are the Last Line of Defence for Earth :)
In the Cutscene of Hyperion we see at least around 15 Carriers (Yorktowns and Concordia Classes marked red in the pic), but we didn't see any Waterloo, Bengal, Confederation or Lexington Class in that scene. Edit: missed 2 more left but they are very little :/ look at the engines/hull that they are not South Hamptons or Tallahassee

And danr I think you are right. Building a capital ship takes several years. And a 1,5km long supercarrier takes more time that the Yorktowns or Concordia Classes. Perhaps the construction startet shortly after the Battle of Earth.
 

Attachments

  • cfleet.png
    cfleet.png
    1.7 MB · Views: 145
I always fanonised that this was a reference to the Vesuvius-class which we eventually see in 2672. Logically, after the war ended in 2669, the production of new ships mentioned in Heart Of The Tiger would be less rushed, especially with the reduction in forces and services cuts mentioned in WC4.

It's one of those things that's a good thought but doesn't really match either the descriptions of "Omega" (a stealth battleship with a rumored super weapon) or the history of the Vesuvii (built at L5 with machinery that should have been rebuilding wartorn planets and based on captured Kilrathi technology).

If the Omega reference is based on anything, it's likely some early concept for the Behemoth that likely came from Dr. Forstchen's late-1993/early-1994 conversation with Origin about the future of the series. But then it doesn't really match Behemoth-as-published, either...

I think the same. We all know that the Lexington Class Heavy Carrier goes in Production, the ships names after American Presidents.

I don't know, I think some of this is fan stuff going too far. All we really know is that the special carrier in Armada is the TCS Lexington and that it's called a heavy carrier. (... and just the fact that the one we know about is named the *Lexington* kind of suggests they aren't named after American Presidents :)).

On page 11 of the Victory Streak you see a few names of ships we never see in action but know they there:

TCS Lexington (Lexington Class)
TCS Centurion (Waterloo Class) - Source : WC2 Cutscene
TCS Armageddon (Confederation Class) Source Fansites, also the TCS Apocalypse
TCS Kennedy (Lexington Class)
TCS Saratoga (think its a Concordia Class - we know the name from Fleet Actions
TCS Lincoln (Lexington Class)

For most of these I think we just don't know the classes--they could be anything. (Pre Star*Soldier I did a cited list of what ships we absolutely know the classes of -- https://www.wcnews.com/articles/art22-2.shtml)

all these ships are not in the frontline - they are the Last Line of Defence for Earth
In the Cutscene of Hyperion we see at least around 15 Carriers (Yorktowns and Concordia Classes marked red in the pic), but we didn't see any Waterloo, Bengal, Confederation or Lexington Class in that scene. Edit: missed 2 more left but they are very little :/ look at the engines/hull that they are not South Hamptons or Tallahassee

It's a retcon to say there are Concordia classes in the picture though, since the ship didn't exist when the scene was created in 1994--what you're looking at is the one carrier model they had for Wing Commander III cutscenes, the Yorktown.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The current timelines* put Fleet Action in late 2668, possibly going as far as through the first days of 2669. That means that the war is actually over before the rest of the Hakaga fleet was supposed to be ready (an additional eleven months, per Jukaga's last estimate). That also rules out Tolwyn's "Omega" ships, which were a year to eighteen months away from being ready.

So--my guess is that what we're seeing at the end of Wing Commander III *is* the Kilrathi getting ready to launch a second force that includes the second wave of Hakagas (and the new dreadnaughts).

* - Which we should talk about. I believe when we last put together a Fleet Action timeline based on when the Sivar-Eshrad is suspected to be and to allow enough time for the year after End Run... which unfortunately ignores a big reference in the Armada manual. Could there be a better way?

What were you thinking as a starting point for trying to reexamine the timeline?
 
What were you thinking as a starting point for trying to reexamine the timeline?

Well, here's the problem with the current timeline--the first "Commander's Log" in Voices of War:

Commander's Log--2668.330
After the tense months leading up to the destruction of the secretly produced Haraka carrier force, this last assignment was anti-climactic, to say the least. The Concordia was growing rather rickety after years of abuse, and she'd been placed on indefinite patrol status, Code 4. What this translated into was running routine "safe" sector patrols. So I did just that, flying sortie after sortie in clear, open space. For eight months straight.

... which seems to say that not only should Fleet Action be done by 2668.330 but also that *eight months* (or more) should have passed (which moves it back to around March, 2668 instead of December).

So where do we go from there?
 
Well, here's the problem with the current timeline--the first "Commander's Log" in Voices of War:



... which seems to say that not only should Fleet Action be done by 2668.330 but also that *eight months* (or more) should have passed (which moves it back to around March, 2668 instead of December).

So where do we go from there?

Yikes. I'd forgotten about that log entry.

So we have to get ER, the follow ops, Munro then a year of "peace" with a few week lead up to BOT? And have it end around March 2668?

I've always thought the last two years of the war were a jam-packed period, but this makes it even more so with those 8 months cut away.

What's the next major event we have a definitive date for?
 
I don't know that we have a year of peace--the official timeline describes it as "months" and I think we can get a more exact number by scouring Fleet Action.

The big problem is the year needed between End Run and Fleet Action, which Jukaga spends in exile. I don't think it's possible to fit it all in, but we can at least map out exactly what's wrong...
 
Back
Top