Flyable ships?

LOAF I respect you for your contributions to the continuity of WC. Your opinoin is both important and needed when expressed reasonably. But when you insult, a contributing develeper that has said on many occasion that she is just doing the best she can. That she admits to maybe not being the best person for the job. That wants another more skilled persont to take over. I think you're just being an asshat. Get over your obsesson, go outside once and a while and aquire some perspective.

Spiritplumber has done a LOT for all of us, when there has not been any others jumping to pick up the project. I think she gets a lot of silly ideas now and then but she is open to sugestion. A lot of good discussion has come from her ideas, both when they work and when they don't, and what hasn't worked has been, or will be changed. I for one think that Spiritplumber has been doing a wonderful job and has put in a LOT of hard work.

Since it seems you like tough love. I suggest you stop acting like a dork living in his parents basement, throwing fits at canon inconsistancys.
 
Do you guys actually -read- what Spiritplumber posts? She is 'in charge' simply by virtue of being about the only person working on the project. She has said more than once that she is only running things until someone better/more important/something comes along, and for anyone who wants it is more than welcome to the job

If someone more critical comes along later who wants to stick line-by-line to every facet of the original universe, then it is -far- easier to change a few lines of code for a ship rather than to code in the whole thing, right?

LOAF- I would say that you have a little more than 'working knowledge' of the WC universe. With that in mind, I would also say that you would do better in a fact-checking/QA sort of a role, better than running the whole project.

My two cents.

-thehawk
 
LOAF I respect you for your contributions to the continuity of WC. Your opinoin is both important and needed when expressed reasonably. But when you insult, a contributing develeper that has said on many occasion that she is just doing the best she can. That she admits to maybe not being the best person for the job. That wants another more skilled persont to take over. I think you're just being an asshat. Get over your obsesson, go outside once and a while and aquire some perspective.

Well, that's the issue here -- I would be very happy if "Why aren't you being more true to Wing Commander?" *were* an insult. To me, it seems like it isn't right now. As it stands, Wing Commander is just a convenient tool so this project can avoid having to design its own artwork and enjoy the support of a pre-existing community. I do not mean this as an insult, I would be happy to be proven wrong.

Spiritplumber has done a LOT for all of us, when there has not been any others jumping to pick up the project. I think she gets a lot of silly ideas now and then but she is open to sugestion. A lot of good discussion has come from her ideas, both when they work and when they don't, and what hasn't worked has been, or will be changed. I for one think that Spiritplumber has been doing a wonderful job and has put in a LOT of hard work.

I don't see how any of this could ever make someone immune to criticism. Great job on your paper -- it was horribly flawed, but you clearly spent time typing it, so, we'll overlook anything wrong. The *purpose* of criticism is to improve the final project - if we're not here to criticize development, what are we here to do? I don't exist to stroke peoples egos.

Since it seems you like tough love. I suggest you stop acting like a dork living in his parents basement, throwing fits at canon inconsistancys.

Everyone who doesn't understand what the word "canon" means should probably stop using it. Lets just say 'continuity'.

Do you guys actually -read- what Spiritplumber posts? She is 'in charge' simply by virtue of being about the only person working on the project. She has said more than once that she is only running things until someone better/more important/something comes along, and for anyone who wants it is more than welcome to the job

Great, and I was serious, I'll do it. There's a million WC fans who'll help out.

If someone more critical comes along later who wants to stick line-by-line to every facet of the original universe, then it is -far- easier to change a few lines of code for a ship rather than to code in the whole thing, right?

I disagree. From a design standpoint, the idea should be to make the game *fun* while staying true to the original universe... which means altering how it plays in order to support new experiences. As I said in another thread, if you want to pilot big merchant ships there should be a system of hiring gunners and ecorts and joining convoys and whatnot established... to provide a unique new experience rather than to simply make the game about having the biggest ship with the most guns.

I think all sorts of ships should be in the game -- but as a reward system rather than as Pokemon (gotta catch 'em all). Write storylines that let you fly a hot military fighter for a few missions rather than ones that give you a pile of freeform stuff for no reason.

I also don't think the game should be about just expanding Privateer to more sectors... lets make Gemini the "newbee" area -- master Privateer and Righteous Fire and you're just getting started on the much harsher realities of the sectors where the war is being fought.

Stuff like that -- expand the experience rather than just make it wider.

LOAF- I would say that you have a little more than 'working knowledge' of the WC universe. With that in mind, I would also say that you would do better in a fact-checking/QA sort of a role, better than running the whole project.

I agree - I'm not a great coder and I certainly can't do 3D artwork... but we'd need a development team organized to allow me to criticize the game without the Forlarrens of the universe deciding that I'm trying to offend someone. (Which I am not.)
 
If you are going to put together a team to work on this project, there are three things you -must- do, or you are going to end up ripping things apart, starting over in places, recreating a lot of work that is already done, and generally being frustrated.

First, put together your core group (obviously I am talking about an overall group of many people, but that is always the hope when you are putting together a project, right?). One 'lead' from each 'department', and the overall person-in-charge. The department 'lead' person is not necessarily the best at what (s)he does, but rather is good at communicating, is willing to put in the extra time, and has an eye for the details. Kind of the way I would see things as departments: Progarmming, Art, Plot/Stories, Universe, QA. A person, if (s)he has the time and inclination, can certainly be part of more than one department. In the ideal world, QA would not be part of any other department, and the project lead would not have specific responsibilities that fall within any department, however I have yet to see that happen in real life. If you want to get -really- fancy, you also have a communications department, who handles the public web space, and all that entails.

Everyone needs to realize a couple of things about the group as a whole. The project lead (if (s)he is worth anything as a project lead) does not play favorites. The project lead takes input from everyone, but in the end, has final say. QA is not 'the bad guys'. If QA tells you something is wrong, there is probably a reason for it, and it is almost never 'because they hate you'. Everyone working on the project is an adult, and doing the best work they can, and there is no reason at all for anyone to be treated any different. Doing otherwise, and allowing people to do otherwise can tank a project faster than about anything except slashing the budget, and we all work for free, so keep that in mind.

Number two, you (you meaning your core group) need to sit down (metaphorically speaking) with Spiritplumber (as the current project lead, and not as the current lead programmer) and talk. Talk about where she is going with the project, and what her goals are. Talk about what work has been completed, and what is next in the short term. Talk about what is next in the long term. Where goals are concerned, talk about general -and- specifics.

Number three. The core group sits down and discusses. Of most importance of these discussions is a mission statement, which should outline the project scope. What are you trying to accomplish? How? Why? (I never include 'when' except where absolutely necessary- it is too easy to irritate people when you do not meet deadlines exactly when or before you said you would).

Try to be as specific as possible. This not only gives you a more clear direction to go, but it helps to minimize 'scope creep'. Scope creep happens in -every- project, and I have yet to find a way to make it -not- happen, so the goal is to keep it down. Especially in a project like this, things are going to come up on a regular basis to the tune of "hey, let's do this too" and "you guys really need to put this in". Each and every item like this needs to be discussed and see where it falls in your mission statement. If it falls outside, then it usually needs to be put in the 'for later' bucket. You can always revise your mission statement, but the idea is to keep it fairly static. Once you reach the goals you have outlined there, then it is time for a) a party, and 2) sit down and decide on new goals.

Take your mission statement and post that on your web space too. It is not only for you, but for public consumption as well.

Anyway, two more of my cents.

-thehawk
 
A short while ago, I actually wanted to suggest LOAF to get involved in the project, then realized I was out of line. But I certainly think if there's one man to make this game truly Wing Commander, it's LOAF. Go LOAF!
 
I said canon I meant canon. I was saying you sound like those dorks that go to conventions and bug actors about why Klingons looked diffrent from orginal Trek and TNG. I was attempting to point out your obsessiveness over a alpha build of a project that hasn't even decided its long term goals yet.

Thank you for a more thougt out post this time though.

BanditLOAF said:
I disagree. From a design standpoint, the idea should be to make the game *fun* while staying true to the original universe... which means altering how it plays in order to support new experiences. As I said in another thread, if you want to pilot big merchant ships there should be a system of hiring gunners and ecorts and joining convoys and whatnot established... to provide a unique new experience rather than to simply make the game about having the biggest ship with the most guns.

I think all sorts of ships should be in the game -- but as a reward system rather than as Pokemon (gotta catch 'em all). Write storylines that let you fly a hot military fighter for a few missions rather than ones that give you a pile of freeform stuff for no reason.

I also don't think the game should be about just expanding Privateer to more sectors... lets make Gemini the "newbee" area -- master Privateer and Righteous Fire and you're just getting started on the much harsher realities of the sectors where the war is being fought.

Stuff like that -- expand the experience rather than just make it wider.

Maybe you should read Spirits posts, because all the threads I have been involved with I have never heard her say that any of that is a bad idea. I know because I have been a vocal supporter of a balanced expanded experence. But Spirtit has also said that she is adding everything she can so we all have the tools to do this. Your opinion of her and the rest of our opinions about her seem to differ. Try offering suggestions instead of insults and you may get better results.
 
I agree with what you've said, Hawk. The first step in such a massive project should be to basically integrate everything you've touched on into a design document. Pattern it after the ones found in the CIC Archive for Privateer Online or Wing Commander Prophecy -- what are we trying to accomplish, why are we doing it, how will we make it work within the context of the project, etc.

Allowances have to be made for a fan project - on one hand, we wouldn't be limited by professional deadlines... but we also wouldn't have an automatic pool of paid labor. Fans need to feel like they're involved in the project, so we'd need to work out a system by which they could feel useful and rewarded within the context of the end goal.

I must stress, however, that this is Spirit's project right now. I've certainly opined that I wish someone else could take over my projects before without really meaning it -- so whether or not we go through with this is entirely at Spirit's discretion. I offering to take the job if that's really what she wants... but I'm not willing to steal it just because I feel I'm qualified.
 
I said canon I meant canon. I was saying you sound like those dorks that go to conventions and bug actors about why Klingons looked diffrent from orginal Trek and TNG. I was attempting to point out your obsessiveness over a alpha build of a project that hasn't even decided its long term goals yet.

Thank you for a more thougt out post this time though.

Eh, when it comes to Wing Commander I am one of those dorks. I don't think I can apologize or feel bad about knowing my material... on the other hand, I also feel that I would make a reasonable game designer. I may understand the logic surrounding references to Kilrathi life spans, but I also understand why Privateer worked as a game and Privateer 2 didn't.

(I disagree with the specific example, though -- I've always felt that Deep Space Nine's humorous approach to the Klingon subject was fitting... Enterprise's fan inspired retcon this season was too much. I think this way of thinking applies to a Wing Commander project, too... understand the continuity, understand why the game works but also appreciate when vauge touch is more important than a deft one.)

(Sorry, forgot to address the 'canon' issue. "Canon" is a noun, not an adjective. Wing Commander exceptionalism trumps common internet usage - something is part of the canon or a canon... not just "is canon".)

Maybe you should read Spirits posts, because all the threads I have been involved with I have never heard her say that any of that is a bad idea. I know because I have been a vocal supporter of a balanced expanded experence. But Spirtit has also said that she is adding everything she can so we all have the tools to do this. Your opinion of her and the rest of our opinions about her seem to differ. Try offering suggestions instead of insults and you may get better results.

I don't think I've insulted anyone -- I'm not slinging names or anything of the sort... and I've *certainly* offered some suggestions in this thread. Why the negative reaction?
 
*nods* And most of what I talked about is done -before- you write your project definition document. Again, if you want to get really fancy, you write the one with all the specifics that is more of an internal document that gets changed as things progress, and a 'higher level' type document that you post to the web space once in a while.

As a note, my project definition documents change pretty regularly to incorporate whatever is going on at the time, what has been completed, what new issues have come up, but I get touchy about people wanting to change my mission statements. When someone wants to change that, we always have to sit down and talk about changing the amount of money involved, and that is my least favorite part.

*wanders off to go look-see if he can find the mentioned design documents in the CIC Archive*

-thehawk
 
BanditLOAF said:
Then I'm at a complete loss as to why you're in charge of the *Wing Commander* Universe project.

I dont take dirregarding peoples contributions lightly. Without Spirit their would be no WCU (or at the very best, it would just be starting), without you, the project would be less WCish.

I do not think you would make a good team leader. Not that your not qualified to do the work, but you lack respectable leadership skills (mostly communication and stubborness). While Spirit hasn't taken the bull by the horns (and dosn't want to) she has gotten us this far and that is worth quite a bit.

Ohh and your a grammar nazi. :p Thats ok though, just don't get too caried away. Somebody needs to care about language, just not be a dick about it.
 
That is pretty standard project documentation. No need to specifically pattern the WCU documentation after it, that is one (I guess 'industry standard') way of doing it. Swiping the table of contents from the 'Privateer Online' document might not be a bad idea tho, and working from there when you have your discussions.

Personally (I have been doing that a lot lately), I like to split things up a little bit more, giving an overview in the project summary (like the executive summary, but written for the people actually working on the project- more on that in a bit), then putting each other piece in its own document to be referenced by the project summary. Unless your project is fairly small, then having everything in one document gets too unweidly too quickly, and requires too many people to resonably coordinate in order to update the document.

The 'executive summary' is often also seperate document, and that is what is usually given to the upper management people who do not want or need to know what is really going on in the guts of the project. That is the part I had in mind for giving to the public- the general idea of what is going on, and the progress, but not the specifics that only the people on the project usually care about anyway.

-thehawk
 
I dont take dirregarding peoples contributions lightly. Without Spirit their would be no WCU (or at the very best, it would just be starting), without you, the project would be less WCish.

I don't really think I've made any claims contrary to this, though. You seem offended by something you've decided I said rather than something I actually did.

I do not think you would make a good team leader. Not that your not qualified to do the work, but you lack respectable leadership skills (mostly communication and stubborness). While Spirit hasn't taken the bull by the horns (and dosn't want to) she has gotten us this far and that is worth quite a bit.

I'm not clear on how you've reached this decision -- I have, afterall, been defacto head of the hub of the community for ten years now. My role at this message board is simply the critic... it involves no inherent respect (but, of course, it should not be taken to mean any disrespect at all).

I think that respect is a very important issue in terms of this project, though.

Frankly, someone needs to play McClellan and turn this mod from a ramshackle collection of donated parts into a serious, concerted effort. The design document I spoke of above is a start - we should get everyone together to come up with a singular goal that everyone can work towards. We need to organize a formal team, though. Let the BradMicks and the LOAFs of the world put the brass letters WCU on their chest and they'll be more interested in actually improving the mod instead of simply talking about what's wrong with it.

In a fan project, we need to treat respect as something that is (and can be) earned. It is *not* a given. If we respect everyone for everything we will never improve. If someone makes a crummy model, the lead needs to be able to tell them to redo it. We should respect the effort and the desire... but respecting the work needs to be something that's earned (and, by team members, sought for).

I think I'm smart enough to understand how to motivate people, but also to force them to do good work. The Wing Commander community has proved my methods right for quite a while now (of course, the first step towards being a good leader is surrounding yourself with smart people -- and that is why the CIC works).

Ohh and your a grammar nazi. :p Thats ok though, just don't get too caried away. Somebody needs to care about language, just not be a dick about it.

Yup. I think Wing Commander fans should be (and in general are) smarter than other groups. We should endeavour to do things right to show the rest of the world how great we are. "That's canon!" and "That's not canon" has become prevalent in these little blue forums... we should clean it up.

--

*nods* And most of what I talked about is done -before- you write your project definition document. Again, if you want to get really fancy, you write the one with all the specifics that is more of an internal document that gets changed as things progress, and a 'higher level' type document that you post to the web space once in a while.

As a note, my project definition documents change pretty regularly to incorporate whatever is going on at the time, what has been completed, what new issues have come up, but I get touchy about people wanting to change my mission statements. When someone wants to change that, we always have to sit down and talk about changing the amount of money involved, and that is my least favorite part.

Absolutely - I think we should get everyone interested in the project to sit down in a conference (on IRC, I suppose) to discuss goals and abilities as soon as possible. From that we would draw up a design document that outlines what we want and how we want to do it...

There's some good stuff that we can do at that point that a for-profit game can't. We aren't bound by financial limitations and we're not forced to ship by Christmas...

We can also use our design goals to inspire the team and the public. If everyone knows what we are working towards, they will be excited and more willing to contribute their talents. Similarly, it will build a sense of team... and it will give critics a true base off of which to let us know how we need to improve.

That's all just my theory, of course.
 
My, my, my so another mod sits in jeopardy of a public and potentially embarassing argument? Let it rest, Farlarren, take any issues you may have to PM. It'll save your face in the long run...
 
Maj.Striker said:
My, my, my so another mod sits in jeopardy of a public and potentially embarassing argument? Let it rest, Farlarren, take any issues you may have to PM. It'll save your face in the long run...

I don't think it's really an argument. I don't think he understands my role as critic and he's angry because he thinks I'm attacking the project. I truly am not - I think that this project has the potential to be huge and that Spirit has done a lot to move it towards reality.
 
What's needed is the following:

Human Resource's:

- Project Manager
- Lead Programmer
- Programers
- Lead Graphics & Model designer
- Graphics & Model designers
- Sound developer
- Beta Testers

General:

- All the project's goals written down. Task's assigned to the developers based on these goals.
- All functions, variable's written down, with descriptions & available to all the developers & possible mission writers on the website ( This is usefull for external script accepting ).
- a Forum with the following subsections:
-- Public Forum
-- Private Forum for the developers
-- Private Forum for developers & beta testers

With these condictions met, some order in a possible chaos can be true. The moment more then 1 person is programming on a project, things turn to a chambles ( i know from experiance ).

Bandit LOAF said:
In my experience, harsh and rude is a good way to get to the truth of the matter.

I think it's a very valid question - what is the point of having a Wing Commander Universe mod that isn't trying to simulate the setting of Wing Commander (the "Wing Commander universe"?

Why pay lip service to Wing Commander? Just render a bunch of generic sci fi ships and ignore gameplay and balancing alltogether.

There's not the exacting requirements that something like the Remake should have held itself to... WCU shouldn't have to play just like some other game -- but on the same card, I don't see how one can ignore big elements of Wing Commander when pursuing such a project.

That's the *point* of having an existing universe to set your fan fiction in... having a framework of rules and fiction that you create within the context of.

Bandit LOAF said:
Well, that's the issue here -- I would be very happy if "Why aren't you being more true to Wing Commander?" *were* an insult. To me, it seems like it isn't right now. As it stands, Wing Commander is just a convenient tool so this project can avoid having to design its own artwork and enjoy the support of a pre-existing community. I do not mean this as an insult, I would be happy to be proven wrong.

The problem is not, "Why aren't you being more true to Wing Commander?", the problem is, why are some people so obsesed. I just cant understand the logic. example: Developers: "O we want to add xxx rockets". WC Holy Police: "you cant do that, it doesent exist in the WC Universe, so it's forbidden". No offence, but that's the attitude amongst some.

There truely are 2 groups. One's who want to stay so true to the original universe, that it is almost like a choke hold. And those that are in between, who want to stay true to the WC game, but who also like to expand into new things, things that no other wc game has touched.

So what if xxx ship from WC X needs to have more/less guns/turrets whatever for balance purpase. This may be a small example, but i can see things like this consume the developers, fanbase, and even break up the project ( some project's have broken up on far less ). Already there have been several battle's between the lovingly called retro's & the rest of the people here. Even something as silly as ship class designation become battle zone's. Becouse it not know, nothing can be made up to replace the lack information. jikes ...

At time's, i wonder if spiritplumber isent better off, just restarting the project under a differend name, and using only a vague referance to wing commander. Then if any person come's complaining that it's not true to there Wing Commander's Bible, it can be pointed out, it's not Wing Commander.
 
LOAF- I would be willing to sit down in such a conference, heh, if it is between work and school. I do not know Wing Commander outside the games so well (*chuckles* I also suck at artistry, generally avoid programming, and have no idea where to start for writing plots), but I do know just a bit about what is required in managing a project.

-thehawk
 
The problem is not, "Why aren't you being more true to Wing Commander?", the problem is, why are some people so obsesed. I just cant understand the logic. example: Developers: "O we want to add xxx rockets". WC Holy Police: "you cant do that, it doesent exist in the WC Universe, so it's forbidden". No offence, but that's the attitude amongst some.

There truely are 2 groups. One's who want to stay so true to the original universe, that it is almost like a choke hold. And those that are in between, who want to stay true to the WC game, but who also like to expand into new things, things that no other wc game has touched.

I think it goes deeper than that. People see changing the 'background' as indicative of a problem with game design.

Take the Tarsus, discussed recently: it exists in Privateer as the lovable loser ship. It has an emotional attachment, but is purposefully limited in its ability. In the game, you must make a decision whether or not to trade it in forever for a better ship. By *changing* this -- making it a better ship and giving you access to it after you switch to a newer ship, you are hurting the gameplay. The player is *supposed* to make a decision, not be free to do anything with no consequences. Neil Young once explained to me that you cannot design a game based around the suggestions of fans - because fans do not know what makes a game work properly. As players, we would all like to fly a super-Tarsus... as game designers, we must understand why we should not.

Now, there is certainly an element that wants to stick to continuity simply for the sake of having continuity -- and I cannot fault them. For better or for worse, the nature of the modern Wing Commander community is that fans spend their time discussing the ins and outs of the canon rather than playing new games. A game designed to appeal to these seven-years-later fans needs to be one that respects that fact - otherwise, it will recieve undue criticism, regardless of ability.

Lastly, it provides a skeleton. You make a Wing Commander game because you enjoy the setting, not because you want to radically alter it. In picking up the pre-designed complex universe map, you also need to understand that there are other requirements that go with it. The Kilrathi do X in this year, the Border Worlds come into existence in this year, the ships act like this, etc.

None of this is against any sort of "expansion" -- it's just saying that new stories should be told within the contraints of what has gone before. Wing Commander means you have a massive universe to build off of... and you lose a small amount of freedom in taking advantage of that.


So what if xxx ship from WC X needs to have more/less guns/turrets whatever for balance purpase. This may be a small example, but i can see things like this consume the developers, fanbase, and even break up the project ( some project's have broken up on far less ). Already there have been several battle's between the lovingly called retro's & the rest of the people here. Even something as silly as ship class designation become battle zone's. Becouse it not know, nothing can be made up to replace the lack information. jikes ...

Well, again, it's not a balance issue. It's a desire issue. Spirit recently complained that she didn't think the game should have hundreds of indentical ships... and it shouldn't. It should have ships that suck and ships that are great and ships that it's nearly impossible to get... and it should have ships that fly like fighters and ships that involve wholly different methods and reasonings to control.

At time's, i wonder if spiritplumber isent better off, just restarting the project under a differend name, and using only a vague referance to wing commander. Then if any person come's complaining that it's not true to there Wing Commander's Bible, it can be pointed out, it's not Wing Commander.

That would, perhaps, be a reasonable decision for those who are interested in a space game rather than a Wing Commander game. I personally think that the framework of Wing Commander can be used to make an amazing space game.

LOAF- I would be willing to sit down in such a conference, heh, if it is between work and school. I do not know Wing Commander outside the games so well (*chuckles* I also suck at artistry, generally avoid programming, and have no idea where to start for writing plots), but I do know just a bit about what is required in managing a project.

Well, it's all theory right now. Lets see what Spirit says... because this is her project. If this goes somewhere, I would be honored to have you (and anyone who cares enough to post to this thread - from people who hate me to people who love me) in such a conference.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Well, it's all theory right now. Lets see what Spirit says... because this is her project. If this goes somewhere, I would be honored to have you (and anyone who cares enough to post to this thread - from people who hate me to people who love me) in such a conference.

Absolutely. Any plan of a conference to further the WCU project, or to transition it to a new 'governing body' is made with the assumption that Spiritplumber is part of that process. Since she pretty much -is- the project at this point (whether or not she is willing to admit that point) and should be 'running things' until such a turnover takes place, I cannot say I would be willing to proceed without her.

-thehawk
 
I agree completely - I would not be willing to work on the project without her approval. I certainly hope she doesn't read this thread as some sort of insult, as the other poster did.

Well, we'll see what happens -- I suppose most people are off having Easter dinner right now.
 
I'm still giving some thought to lending my services to WC:U, but from personal experience as an artist working within boundaries, I'd say that the Wing Commander materials could easily provide more than enough info to create a living world. On the issue of maintaining consitency, I think it would be fun to have some deviations from the central line, but should we (as in fans) create anything for the WC:U, it should be done so that it would coexist within the canon or else make something more plausible. My personal belief states tht if it was made for Wing Commander, it should be Wing Commander in structure and function.
 
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