English grammar question

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

Hi and a happy new year to you all!

Sorry that I come back here with such a profane (?) question but this was the first place I thought of that I was sure of being able to answer my question:

From the Star Wars RPG revised Core rulebook:

"At 3rd and 16th level, the tech specialist gains 4 ranks in any intelligence-based skill (including cross-class skills, but not force skills) that he currently has no ranks in."

Does that mean he gets 4 ranks in every intelligence-based skill he currently has no ranks in or does he get 4 ranks in one intelligence-based skill he currently has no ranks in?

Thanks in advance and I'll be back at the latest once I get to play Ep3 of Standoff.

 

[Dyret]

I think that would be one of them.

 

[Martini Doctor]

I'd say he gains 4 ranks in every i-based skill he uses, if he has no skill points in it yet.

Gruß aus Mainz

 

[Quarto]

Yeah, Martini Doctor is right. I have no idea about the rules for the Star Wars RPG, but at least that seems to be what the grammar implies.

 

[LeHah]

God, I hate WOTC's Star Wars RPG

The rule means that your character gets 4 ranks to allocate to that group of skills.

 

[Dyret]

"At 3rd and 16th level, the tech specialist gains 4 ranks in any intelligence-based skill that he currently has no ranks in."

Ouch, when i look at it like this I have to agree with Quarto and Martini Doctor... Thats odd... Sorry for misleading you, Mekt-Hakkikt.

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

I'd say he gains 4 ranks in every i-based skill he uses, if he has no skill points in it yet.

Yeah, Martini Doctor is right. I have no idea about the rules for the Star Wars RPG, but at least that seems to be what the grammar implies.

That was my understanding as well (not only because as a PC I naturally wanted the best for my fellow tech specialist ) but our GM thought differently and then I remembered some obscure rules concerning "any" from my English classes and got unsure.

God, I hate WOTC's Star Wars RPG

Don't know yet, we only recently started playing, although from the first look of it I think it's superior to the old d6 system we played years ago.

The rule means that your character gets 4 ranks to allocate to that group of skills.

Now I am confused: do you agree with Martini Doctor and Quarto or do you mean that he gets 4 ranks in total that he can divide between the Int-skills (what I wouldn't have guessed at all)?

Gruß aus Mainz

Really? Beacuse my location is outdated, I moved to Mainz last year...

Dyret, no harm done.

Anyway, thanks to you all!

 

[LeHah]

Don't know yet, we only recently started playing, although from the first look of it I think it's superior to the old d6 system we played years ago.

Don't believe them. The WEG system was perfect because it was simple and didn't have a lot of complicated rules that bogged down dice checks or battles.

I will credit WOTC to making a conversion chart for the WEG stats - Smart on their part. I want to get into this Star Wars miniatures game though.

Now I am confused: do you agree with Martini Doctor and Quarto or do you mean that he gets 4 ranks in total that he can divide between the Int-skills (what I wouldn't have guessed at all)?

I agree with the other two. My mind was stuck in WEG mode - where you would've been rewarded in the way I mentioned.

 

[ChrisReid]

Just from that sample there, I think I'd disagree. I'd probably use the word "each" or "every" instead of "any" to clarify that if I were writing it. It's really hard to say what they were thinking without more context though.

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

Don't believe them. The WEG system was perfect because it was simple and didn't have a lot of complicated rules that bogged down dice checks or battles. (...)

It's been at least three years since I played the d6-system but I think I found it a bit too simplistic in certain circumstances. And I remember that a Jedi was extremely weak at the beginning - we had one in the group and, after even failing to switch his light saber on (?), he gave up quite frustrated. It seems to me that with the d20 system the Force user isn't so inferior at the beginning.
Anyway, we'll see if we like the system. I certainly found their choice of available classes a bit strange and I don't know if it's very well balanced. But that wasn't the case with D&D either.
On the other hand, I do not care too much about the system as long as it does not prohibit to have fun; we change it every year or so anyway.

I agree with the other two. My mind was stuck in WEG mode - where you would've been rewarded in the way I mentioned.

Ok, thanks.

Just from that sample there, I think I'd disagree. I'd probably use the word "each" or "every" instead of "any" to clarify that if I were writing it. It's really hard to say what they were thinking without more context though.

I'll try to describe the mechanism in short words to see if it clarifies it:
each time a character goes a level up, he gains a certain amount of skill points. With these points he can buy "ranks" in skills like "Astrogate", "Tumble","Spot" or "repair"; with one skill point you buy one rank, except for those that are "cross class skills"(skills that your class does not favour), those cost 2 skill points per rank. All skills are based on certain abilities: "Spot" is based on "Wisdom", "Tumble" on "Dexterity" and well, "Repair" and "Astrogate", along with others as "Computer use" or "Search", are based on Intelligence and so on.

In addition to the skill points, a character gains feats at certain levels; feats are mostly unique advantages that your chosen class has.

And so does the class "tech specialist" gain the feat "Instant mastery" at 3rd and 16th level with the advantages described above.

An example:
Let's say my tech specialist is 2nd level and I put all my skill points in the skill "Computer Use" so that I have no rank in any other skill. I go up a level and spend all my skill points again in "Computer use". Then comes the class feat "Instant mastery" which says:

"At 3rd and 16th level, the tech specialist gains 4 ranks in any intelligence-based skill (including cross-class skills, but not force skills) that he currently has no ranks in."

Now, does my character gain 4 ranks in "Repair", "Search", "Astrogate" and every other Intelligence based skill he has no ranks in or can he choose a single skill, based on intelligence, that he has no ranks in and he gains 4 ranks in this one only, e.g. I choose "Repair" and get 4 ranks in "repair" but not the other ones?

I hope that didn't make everything more complicated. As for now, the majority is for the PC friendly interpretation which suits our tech specialist certainly well. But is this open to interpretation or is there a clear rule what "any" means in this context?

Thanks again!

 

[Martini Doctor]

Really? Beacuse my location is outdated, I moved to Mainz last year...

Most boring town ever... I bet you already regret doing so... L O L ....

 

[LeHah]

And I remember that a Jedi was extremely weak at the beginning - we had one in the group and, after even failing to switch his light saber on (?), he gave up quite frustrated.

Failing simple checks are annoying but a good GM can turn them into humor. (A fine example is my failing a check for my running skill and I ended up sliding down a newly mopped hallway and down into a garbage chute ((complete with Wilhelm Scream)) while the rest of my buddies kept running from the stormtroopers)

Towards the end of our playing, I noticed that the bounty hunter I was playing was no longer as fun with the giant, impressive stats - which also forced us to come up with more elaborate and silly ideas just to challenge each other as players. I eventually retired that character and started fresh - I found that having really limited skills forces you to not only play "in character" more but forces you to "outwit" the GM.

All this talk of old RPGing is making me nostalgic and really wanting to play again!

 

[ChrisReid]

I'll try to describe the mechanism in short words to see if it clarifies it:
each time a character goes a level up, he gains a certain amount of skill points. With these points he can buy "ranks" in skills like "Astrogate", "Tumble","Spot" or "repair"; with one skill point you buy one rank, except for those that are "cross class skills"(skills that your class does not favour), those cost 2 skill points per rank. All skills are based on certain abilities: "Spot" is based on "Wisdom", "Tumble" on "Dexterity" and well, "Repair" and "Astrogate", along with others as "Computer use" or "Search", are based on Intelligence and so on.

In addition to the skill points, a character gains feats at certain levels; feats are mostly unique advantages that your chosen class has.

And so does the class "tech specialist" gain the feat "Instant mastery" at 3rd and 16th level with the advantages described above.

An example:
Let's say my tech specialist is 2nd level and I put all my skill points in the skill "Computer Use" so that I have no rank in any other skill. I go up a level and spend all my skill points again in "Computer use". Then comes the class feat "Instant mastery" which says:

"At 3rd and 16th level, the tech specialist gains 4 ranks in any intelligence-based skill (including cross-class skills, but not force skills) that he currently has no ranks in."

Now, does my character gain 4 ranks in "Repair", "Search", "Astrogate" and every other Intelligence based skill he has no ranks in or can he choose a single skill, based on intelligence, that he has no ranks in and he gains 4 ranks in this one only, e.g. I choose "Repair" and get 4 ranks in "repair" but not the other ones?

I think an important question to answere here is how many skill points they're getting with each level. Is it like 1 or 2 or is it like 8 or 10? If it's only a couple skill points per level, it seems very unlikely that the rules intend for someone to gain the equivalent of dozens of skill points upon reaching 3rd level.

I hope that didn't make everything more complicated. As for now, the majority is for the PC friendly interpretation which suits our tech specialist certainly well. But is this open to interpretation or is there a clear rule what "any" means in this context?

"Any" definitely does not have one clear rule. It can mean "one, some, every or all without specification." However, people who write instructions should know this, and should use the term "each" or "every" if they mean all categories get something. To me, "any" implies a single category in this case, but again, I'd really like to know what sort of skill points you're getting at level 1 and 2. That'd help clear this up a lot.

 

[Zelvik]

Id go for what is more logical in the gamesystem or for a wholy different house rule. If WotC kept the little advices of TSR in their rulebooks.

"Most important thing is having fun"
"Rules are not set in stone but are suggestions"

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

I think an important question to answere here is how many skill points they're getting with each level. Is it like 1 or 2 or is it like 8 or 10? If it's only a couple skill points per level, it seems very unlikely that the rules intend for someone to gain the equivalent of dozens of skill points upon reaching 3rd level.
"Any" definitely does not have one clear rule. It can mean "one, some, every or all without specification." However, people who write instructions should know this, and should use the term "each" or "every" if they mean all categories get something. To me, "any" implies a single category in this case, but again, I'd really like to know what sort of skill points you're getting at level 1 and 2. That'd help clear this up a lot.

That's a very reasonable thought, though I don't know if it can be applied in this case.

You get a fixed number of skill points each level according to your class:

4 per Level as Soldier, Jedi guardian and Tech specialist
6 per Level for most other classes (Noble, Fringer, Jedi consular, Scout...)
8 per Level as Scoundrel.

In addition to this you get a bonus (or malus) according to your Intelligence score (if you have Int 8-9, you -1 Skill point, if you have 12-13 you get +1, 14-15:+2 and so on).
Looking at the fixed number, the Tech specialist is at the bottom, thus hinting maybe at the interpretation that he only gains 4 points in a single Int-based skill.
On the other hand, the tech specialist's whole purpose is to be good in skills, especially Int-based ones, he has no other use. All of his class features aim at giving him a bonus in his skills.
And 4 ranks in a single skill isn't too much. Normally you need a result of 15 (d20+skill modifier) to get a decent result.

It 'd be quite powerful a feat, giving him 4 ranks in every Int-base skill but I think he needs this advantage. As I wrote, we only began playing, so I do not know yet how game balance will be.
If there's no distinct rule for "any" then I guess it'll be GM's choice.

Failing simple checks are annoying but a good GM can turn them into humor. (A fine example is my failing a check for my running skill and I ended up sliding down a newly mopped hallway and down into a garbage chute ((complete with Wilhelm Scream)) while the rest of my buddies kept running from the stormtroopers)!

Ah yes, failing running checks is also one of my most vivid memories of the old d6-system.

But with the Jedi was the problem that he wasn't just unlucky (that also) but that at the beginning his force skills were totally useless and he had disadvantages compared to all others because of his choice of a Jedi career. Also, we were quite astonished that you have to make a check to switch your light saber on...

Towards the end of our playing, I noticed that the bounty hunter I was playing was no longer as fun with the giant, impressive stats - which also forced us to come up with more elaborate and silly ideas just to challenge each other as players. I eventually retired that character and started fresh - I found that having really limited skills forces you to not only play "in character" more but forces you to "outwit" the GM.

The PC getting too powerful for sensible adventure seems to be a problem with all RPG I'v ever played.
That's also the reason why we change the system regularily.

All this talk of old RPGing is making me nostalgic and really wanting to play again!

It sure is my almost single source of fun at the moment. The rest of the week belongs to studying...

Most boring town ever... I bet you already regret doing so... L O L ....

Not at all. As much as I like Wiesbaden, Mainz has definately more events, being a university town.
I moved in with my girlfriend and we found a nice little appartement "Am Brand", so I'm quite happy.
And since I am preparing for my state exam there's no time left to go out much anyway.

 

[LeHah]

But with the Jedi was the problem that he wasn't just unlucky (that also) but that at the beginning his force skills were totally useless and he had disadvantages compared to all others because of his choice of a Jedi career. Also, we were quite astonished that you have to make a check to switch your light saber on.

WEG made it a point to emphasize that GMs were to "finagle" the rules. The game was suppose to be more fun than accurate or rules based. If some rule conflicted with a good story, ignore the rule.

We as a group eventually stopped doing a lot of tedious checks - like switching on a lightsabre, for example - unless it was an unusual circumstance (like a quick-draw)

 

[t.c.cgi]

I think it means one skill only. If first place means I can have any prize of my choosing, I don't think they meant I could take all of them.

The wording itself should answer the question anyway. If these skills are all appointed at char creation like in KOTOR, then why would it be there for two levels?

 

[ChrisReid]

That's a very reasonable thought, though I don't know if it can be applied in this case.

You get a fixed number of skill points each level according to your class:

4 per Level as Soldier, Jedi guardian and Tech specialist
6 per Level for most other classes (Noble, Fringer, Jedi consular, Scout...)
8 per Level as Scoundrel.

In addition to this you get a bonus (or malus) according to your Intelligence score (if you have Int 8-9, you -1 Skill point, if you have 12-13 you get +1, 14-15:+2 and so on).
Looking at the fixed number, the Tech specialist is at the bottom, thus hinting maybe at the interpretation that he only gains 4 points in a single Int-based skill.
On the other hand, the tech specialist's whole purpose is to be good in skills, especially Int-based ones, he has no other use. All of his class features aim at giving him a bonus in his skills.
And 4 ranks in a single skill isn't too much. Normally you need a result of 15 (d20+skill modifier) to get a decent result.

It 'd be quite powerful a feat, giving him 4 ranks in every Int-base skill but I think he needs this advantage.

With that in mind, I'd probably lean to all Int skills getting the 4 ranks then. A dozen or so skill ranks for reaching a special bonus level doesn't seem unreasonable with so many other points being handed out, and just getting 4 ranks sounds like it might be too low.

I think it means one skill only. If first place means I can have any prize of my choosing, I don't think they meant I could take all of them.

As I posted above, "any" has no clear-cut definition. It can mean one, a few or many.

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

I've talked to our GM yesterday and he had the solution. It's incredibly simple and logical, I smacked my head that I didn't think of it and I think t.c.cgi meant the same with his second paragraph.

The solution is, the PC can only choose a single Int-based skill in which to advance 4 ranks if he had no ranks in it before.
Because if it meant "in every Int-based skill he has no ranks in" then it'd be utterly pointless to award the same feat to the Tech specialist on the 16th level because he then should have no Int-based skill left in which he has no ranks at all.
Jay!

Sadly that means to me that the Tech specialist isn't very potent but it seems to be quite clear from the rule (now).
Maybe our GM can be talked into something but at least the rule is clear.

Nevertheless, I thank you guys of course for your time!

WEG made it a point to emphasize that GMs were to "finagle" the rules. The game was suppose to be more fun than accurate or rules based. If some rule conflicted with a good story, ignore the rule.

We as a group eventually stopped doing a lot of tedious checks - like switching on a lightsabre, for example - unless it was an unusual circumstance (like a quick-draw)

That's true, we tended (and still tend as a general rule) to play straight by the book though it's getting better with our GM(s) having more experience.
Still from what I've seen yet (I play a force sensitive character) I think the D20 system manages the use of the Force better than the WEG system.
But of course, except for the Jedi, we had great fun playing the d6 system as well. In fact, looking back at my RPG-career, I think the Star Wars WEG time was my
2nd favourite if not even on par with my favourite. And for the Jedi - well I got to admit, we teased him a lot .
The system isn't so important as long as it does not stand in the way of fun. I mean the old Warhammer RPG (by Games Workshop) has the worst system I've yet to play (for my taste at least) but thanks to the superb setting and great adventures it didn't really matter. (The new Warhammer RPG by Black Industries seems to have better rules though at the expense of other things.)

 

[LeHah]

Still from what I've seen yet (I play a force sensitive character) I think the D20 system manages the use of the Force better than the WEG system.

I've never actually played the D20 system, but Ive read the Core Rulebook a number of times and played it out in my head. Perhaps I'm missing something?

I mean the old Warhammer RPG (by Games Workshop) has the worst system I've yet to play (for my taste at least) but thanks to the superb setting and great adventures it didn't really matter. (The new Warhammer RPG by Black Industries seems to have better rules though at the expense of other things.)

I played Battleship Gothic for a summer and it was a major blast. But it seems like that game has been discontinued.