Draymans had multiple turrets.

spiritplumber said:
You're right about being accurate, I just felt that honestly Drays had to have a chance to be left on their own for more than 3 seconds and not get plinked to death by one guy's hand laser while they turn around.

This can be solved rather simply that both side's will agree with ( atleased that's what i think ).

Instait of this turret Dray talk, or more weapons on it, why not use commen earth sence ... In time's of War, ship move in convoy's, with militairy protection, or they have there own private protection.

In a sence, it's already in the game, sinds some of the missions are escort missions that involve Dray protection.


Make the Dray's instait of a single ship every time, one ship in a flightgroup.
Example: A dray automaticlay get's 1 to 3 ( random factor ) fighter escorts on creation.

This way the purits are heapy becouse they Dray stay's loyal to it's design, and the evolvists are heapy sinds the Dray now has protection against pirates etc. It will also make the game a bit more fun for the player, sinds he now as pirate will have to deal with ship escorts ;)

How do you like it?
 
hmm...thats funny, the name of 'speedster' implies...well...speed, NOT cargo carrying capability. and i would venture to say that it's probably about the same size as the centurion, maybe a bit smaller.

the armor values are equivalent values. you know how you have plasteel armor that is (for the sake of argument, and because i can't remember the exact values off the top of my head) 10cm of regular hull durasteel equivalent, then you have tungsten which is 100cm of regular hull durasteel equivalent, then isometal, like...1000cm of regular durasteel equivalent. (just using a simple measurement, bear with me). as best as i have come to understand it, the 300cm ratings are what the armor is as say, 3cm of tungsten plate, or whatever 300cm would be out of 1000cm of idometal. that's how the armor dealy works to the best of my knowledge. the idea isn't that a 27m ship actually has like, 3000cm of armor (an impossiblity i would say) its that it has 3000cm equivalent.

getting things balanced should work out pretty well. you just have to understand the underlying values for all the armor types.

note:

no you wouldn't have to round off the scarab. look at the demon, the drayman mk2, the ships of WC2. etc..etc..build it like it is. i can't emphasize that enough to modelers. build it exactly how it is/was. if you want, i'll sit down and do up some blueprints in photshop for the scarab for you. there are plenty of design conventions which have been broken in WC, that's A-OK. diversity and mixing it up a little bit was never a bad thing design wise :)

the 5th player ship is actually the 'Speedster' not the demon. it's not a matter of 'i always felt' its a matter of what is there.

my biggest suggestion is to put together one nice and tidy game design doc. a shiny outline of everything you're looking at doing, and then shop it around to folks who know all the facts of the ships, etc, etc, and work with them on revising it. the WCU project really is a very neat idea, it just really needs to stick to established bits.

i can understand the 'hey wow! add turrets, and thisits and thatsits!' but...it's really not the better route to travel for wing commander. there are a LOT of fans who take WC very seriously, and would rather not see it done at all over perverted, at least thats my take on it. i woul love to zip around from sol to kilrah and back again, believe you me. but i'd love to do it in the universe that i know and love.

if you want, i can help you develop a design doc, if you've got aim or icq or msn or whatever, or hell, just PM me or e-mail me, i'll be more than happy to help.
 
This does already happen -- ALL capships carry a few (1 to 3) fighters as escorts, these are launched as soon as a hostile is near. Carriers carry additional waves, so the player actually gets to see fighters being spawned from them. This said, the escort AI is still very very very much in its infancy, so escorts tend to just frenzy and veer away from their mothership. Right now the Drayman carries two Talons, unless it's owned by Confed in which case it carries two Arrows.

If you want to get a hold of me I'm on Yahoo Messenger at kay_ieee
 
spiritplumber said:
This does already happen -- ALL capships carry a few (1 to 3) fighters as escorts, these are launched as soon as a hostile is near. Carriers carry additional waves, so the player actually gets to see fighters being spawned from them. This said, the escort AI is still very very very much in its infancy, so escorts tend to just frenzy and veer away from their mothership. Right now the Drayman carries two Talons, unless it's owned by Confed in which case it carries two Arrows.

Never noticed that. Did notice the launching on the Heavy Cap ship's, but never on the Dray. Btw: Maybe i'm wrong, but the Dray is a cargo ship, does it even have launch / landing bay's? Maybe it's just me, but i vision a Dray with fighters around it while it fly's.
 
Right now Drays carry two light fighters of the appropriate faction which are launched BEFORE you get there, as to give the illusions that they are its escort. If you ever see a Dray in a firefight, see if you see any light ships near it which have SCRAMBLE instead of the ship type.
 
Let me be a retro, for a moment. I see Brad's concerns about WCU possibly veering too far from WC, and fans of WC saying "this game is crap" because they might see too many details that contradict what they've seen before.

I'd like to make a further point on his behalf, or rather expand a point he made, about liking to go from sol to Kilrah, but in the universe he knows and loves. I'm definitely an AWACS, and I want to see a lot of new things in the game, such as leading autotracking in turrets, an expanded set of escort commands as someone was suggesting in another thread, more sophisticated rules for faction sympathy/antipathy, re-designed ships, ship interiors and bases, better mission generation algorithms, trade and economics that make sense, ship upgrades such as Forlarren was suggesting a few posts earlier, etc. There are things in WCU right now that I think make the game better already, and do not "contradict" cannon, and therefore should stay, such as docking with larger ships, more informative screens for commodities and upgrades, etc.

However, things like the ability to travel to other sectors, even though it was my dream while playing Privateer, I think they need to be moderated, though not elliminated. The reason it is so cool and novel *for me* to visit sol, is precisely because when I played Privateer I couldn't. If I was playing the game for the first time, it really would make little difference, UNLESS it is something that comes much later in the game. If sol was somewhat of a legend in the game, and at some point the door to it is opened, that's cool. Same thing with Kilrah. It's like in Asimov's Empire series, where you have 2 or 3 books with stories about the Foundation, and Trantor, and the Second Foundation... and you keep wondering, where's home?, where's Earth?, then, finally, in like the fourth book in the series, the main character decides to start looking for the Original planet, until he finds it. There was a build up to it, which made it enthralling.

The way WCU is now, where the Vega sector is opened from the start and a lot of cargo missions want to send you there, it's like orgasm without foreplay. Furthermore, the map becomes unmanageably complex.

The Gemini and Vega sectors should perhaps be two clusters, separated by some greater distance. If we want to model reality somewhat, I'd say that the trip between Vega and Gemini should be very long, take a full fuel load of jumps through uninhabited systems full of rocks, perhaps nebulas, and the occasional Kilrathi; or perhaps even two fuel loads, requiring one to stop at a refueling station at midpoint; and when you are in either sector, only the map of the sector in which you are should show. Cargo missions between sectors should be few, very highly paid, and only deliver colonists or secret documents (military or government documents). It would not make sense to make such a long trip to deliver food or iron.

And there's something to be said for keeping the player discovering new stuff throughout the game. Some ships, perhaps Vintage Draymans, could appear VERY seldom in the game, and some ships could be restricted to particular areas, say there could be just one Confed Carrier in the game, which might make a routine round trip between Perry, Tri-Pak, and back around that loop, where the time it takes to cross each system is roughly 5 times as long as the player takes to cross a system. This way, there's a remote chance the player will see the carrier by visiting Perry, but a greater chance if traveling to Tri-Pak.

As far as new features, and added turrets; I think that if we are careful not to *contradict* the cannon, we certainly have every right to expand on it. Just as you can mount a machine gun on the roof of a jeep, there's no reason why an able mechanic could not modify a Drayman to add turrets. I think that this should be hard to get done, however; perhaps one has to meet the right person at a pirate base or something.

Let me first argue as an AWACS about leading autotracking in turrets: Yes for two reasons: a) It doesn't contradict cannon, in fact reaffirms it! Large ships, which cannot turn fast, need turrets. Those turrets are manned/womanned by gunners, who, unless they are on brilliance, would definitely lead their targets. b) In the case of automatic turrets in small ships, they would certainly have autotracking. Why? Because autotracking is standard already in the 21st century, so unless humanity regresses between now and the 27th century, it is a given.
Okay, now let me argue as a Retro: a) Leading autotracking was not there in other WC games, and b) It would make the game either too easy or too hard, and overall less left to chance, IOW more predictable, and therefore less interesting.
Well, there is a way to reconcile all these concerns: If having leading autotracking takes say 30K credits for the turret, 100K credits for the ITTS radar, 50K credits for computer and software (or 150K for a good computer, 75K for kickass software that predicts when pilots will turn, from their own pre-programmed and growing experience), then we're talking nearly half a million credits per turret. IOW, the money you have to sink on those turrets exceeds many times the price of the ship and all the other ship upgrades put together. A capship with all its turrets fully upgraded might cost 20 million, say, versus 8 million with just the basic turrets. This avoids contradicting cannon by providing an explanation for why we don't see this feature in other WC games.
And as I was saying before, these upgrades wouldn't be available at the start of the game. Technology should evolve throughout the length of gameplay, and therefore it would be premature to have all technologies available at the beginning.
Also keep in mind that although there is ECM available from the start, later there may be missiles available with ECCM, at which point at least one turret may need to be converted for point defense.
 
Well hiring a good gunner can lower the initial cost of that turret. Over the long term the cost would be more as you pay the gunners wage. But when you have the money you just replace the human with a computer gunner. That way the player has the choice of large initial investment with little upkeep, but large loss in the case of a destroyed turret. Or small initial investment, large upkeep, but little loss in case of a destroyed turret.

But I do understand the desire to keep things as Wing Commander as possable. Thats why a balanced system is needed for upgrades. I am totally aginst the uber ship. As long as there is trade off it shouldn't be a problem to balance.

To tell you the truth I am still flying around in my Tarsus. I just cant seem to get rid of it. I like its character.
 
I have two comments (to start) on the Lieutenant Dan_W manifesto.

Number one. I really think, before you start wanting to limit what sectors are available when, how far apart they are, what trials and tribbleations are required to get from one to the other, that a sort of 'mission statement' for WCU needs to be defined and written. What exacty are we trying to accomplish with our work here? What is the end-goal, what does the proverbial 'finished product' look like? Remember, 'Privateer: Remake' does NOT equal 'WCU'.

Number two. The map is not all that complicated at things are right now, with all the standard jump tunnels plotted. It will get more complicated once the other jump tunnel types get implemented and plotted, but I do not (yet) think overly so. You just need to change your zoom level. For a preview of my current masterpiece, check out [ home.comcast.net/~thehawk-news/wcu ]. I sent a private message to the guy (I think) I used to help create that thing, but have not heard back from him. Yea, I know it needs some alignmenting and some cleanup.

Number three (yes, the deal has been altered.. ). It can make sense for cargo to travel almost any distance to reach its destination. Why? Because if Company X has been contracted to deliver certain goods to a certain place, then the company is going to do it by the least expensive means possible. It is not their fault that some poor schmuck desperate for cash takes a job hauling a load of iron to a place five quadrants over and three down (tho that would likely put said schmuck in Kilrathi space) for the same price the guy in the next system would have been paid.

-thehawk
 
Solving the Drayman issue

As, actually, was the Drayman of Priv 1, which looked nothing like it's WC1 counterparts. So different that I'm wondering if it could reasonably be called a Drayman. There's no resemblance.

If I may (hopefully) put this to rest, the name "Drayman" probably implies the manufacturer, not the specific class of ship. This is very similar to how I might drive a Cadillac or fly a Cessna. The only difference is that Cadillacs and Cessnas are assembly line vehicles. (Actually, Cessnas have a lot of hand building involved, but the parts are still assembly line.) A merchant ship, OTOH, is custom built for each order. The ships may seem similar, but they aren't "stock". Thus ships fall into a class, but not a model.

Getting back to Privateer, my thought is that "Drayman" might refer to dozens of different types of transports, including the Scarab. If Chris Roberts was able to when Privateer was made, he probably would have made sure that each Drayman was a little different from the rest. i.e. Some would have 10 turrets, some would have none. Some would have extra cargo attachments at the expense of speed, while others would have larger engines at the expense of cargo. Yet each and every one would still be a Drayman.

This also helps explain why the WC1 and Priv Draymans are so different. The former is a Military transport (and also ten years older, but that isn't that much time as far as ships go) while the latter is a merchant ship designed for cargo hauling. I imagine that Drayman Industries made a fortune off of replacing all the transports I lost in WC1 and the ones I shot up in Privateer. ;)
 
I have not played other WC games than Privateer, so I don't know whether this is the case, but, IF the case is that each game lived in only one sector, such as Privateer spending all of its play in Gemini, I'd say the trip between sectors should be long and hazardous. For in that way only it could justify and reaffirm cannon, in terms of the original games' segregation.

Your map is wonderful, and I saved it, but I was only able to appreciate it because I have scrollers. But in flight, I wouldn't want to have to zoom and scroll; I want just the view that's important to me, to be the default.

Number three (yes, the deal has been altered.. ). It can make sense for cargo to travel almost any distance to reach its destination. Why? Because if Company X has been contracted to deliver certain goods to a certain place, then the company is going to do it by the least expensive means possible. It is not their fault that some poor schmuck desperate for cash takes a job hauling a load of iron to a place five quadrants over and three down (tho that would likely put said schmuck in Kilrathi space) for the same price the guy in the next system would have been paid.
Can you rewrite that in proper English, without using derogatory terms like "shmuck"?
What are you trying to say?
If a trip is long and arduous, people will want more money to do it. What makes you think anyone will be "desperate for cash"?
Did you ever take Economics 101?

I agree with your first premise, though: goals should be clear and written down; but then again, this IS the "proper forum", I believe, to discuss those goals before they are written down.
 
In the other WC games, jumping between one sector and another is not any different than jumping between any other systems.

That map is actually designed around a sector being printed on 11x17 landscape.

The term 'poor schmuck desperate for cash' -is- in English, and it is -not- derogatory. It is a statement describing ones financial outlook at a point in time, usually meaning it is 'bad' or 'worse'. Think about the situation you are in when you first start Privateer, but with a lot less money.

If a trip is long (and|or) arduous, of -course- people are going to -want- more money for it. That does not necessarily mean they are going to be -offered- more money for it.

Think about the guy with no (or very litle) cash to his name (he has just spent everything he had left on repairs), but he has a ship. He (being a member of the Merchant Guild) wanders into the local Merchant Guild Local, and asks about work. The guy behind the counter checks his listings and says something about iron needing to be delivered to Repleetah (for sake of arguement, say you are in Ella or something). He tells you that normally, they would get someone from the Isaac quad to do the run, but he likes you, and you did tell him you were down on your luck, so he makes the offer. Yea, because they usually get someone closer to do the work, they only offer eight thousand credits. But hey, it is a job, and you figure you can eat mac'n'cheese (or whatever the equivilant in that time is) for the duration of the flight, and this will get you back on your feet again. So when he tell you it's all he's got take it or leave it, you take it.

What makes me think anyone will be 'desperate for cash?'? I myself, whlie playing Privateer, have been 'desperate for cash' on more than one occasion. One event sticks out in my mind, after repairs and necessary upgrades (to fight my way out of the station I just had to land on while my reactor wanted to overload) left me with three hundred forty eight credits. Heck yea I was willing to take just about any cargo run that came along.

What does Economics 101 have to do with personal finance? Why does that come up almost every time money comes up? Is anyone who has not taken Economics 101 not allowed to discuss money or anything to do with it?

Lemmie as you this. Have you ever been unemployed, spending the last of your money on raman noodles (because that is all you can afford), and not knowing where you are going to get food for the next week, let alone how you are going to make rent and your car payment at the end of the month? And no, your parents cannot come bail you out this time, it is just you on your own. Yea, you are going to take the next job that comes your way.

-thehawk
 
dan_w said:
Your map is wonderful, and I saved it, but I was only able to appreciate it because I have scrollers. But in flight, I wouldn't want to have to zoom and scroll; I want just the view that's important to me, to be the default.

I have counted the map quadrant, and it basis is there are 58 quadrant parts with data in it ( the other are empty ). Each map quadrant seems to have it's quadrant name.

If each map quadrant can be sold ( like now is already the case for 4 quadrant ), it can be used in the navigator ( note: in my honest opinion this needs a changeover, becouse i find it not very easy ... i resort using this Map on a second computer, becouse it's way more easy to navigate then using the onboard/ingame nav computer ).

If we cut the map in parts, it can be used ingame.
 
Okay, hawk, you made your point; but even if some 'shmuck' were willing to do something for less money, and happen to be at a place where someone is willing to pay but not as much as the going rate, then work below the going rate may happen; but it won't happen often. And if it does, then the going rate will go down, until the economic pressures balance out.
My point still stands, that if the distance is much greater, and/or the trip more hazardous, price would be higher, generally speaking, and in fact, 99% of the time.
But if, as you say, inter-sector distances aren't greater than intra-sector distances, as per the established cannon, then, the above discussion is irrelevant, anyways.
 
I might have a fairly complete set of save games from the other WC games, and I should be able to tell you exactly where you jump to as the stories progress (one route thru the stories anyway). Heh, if not, it is as good an excuse as any to play thru them all again.
 
Seems to me that sectors are mostly arbitrary -- this said, nothing prevents us from putting the Gemini-Auriga jump point (for example) after a lot of asteroids.
 
Indeed, Argentus; I already find it hard to use the onboard map after I buy the vega sector maps. And in fact I don't know how to zoom: I read somewhere that the mouse-wheel was supposed to zoom the map, but it doesn't work for me. In any case, even if I knew how to zoom and scroll, I'd rather have the view to default to the highest zoom level that includes the system I'm in, the one I'm going to, and any systems along the route. Besides, it should be projected onto the HUD, like a transparency, rather than cover one's view; otherwise you cannot look at the map in an asteroid field, for example. And in a ship that can experience accelerations of 10G, there would not be some map display at the end of a rotating arm that comes down to show you a map in front of your space. That's why HUD's were invented: More rugged, no moving parts, and don't cover your field of view.
But right now some of the skybox backgrounds are too bright, which creates legibility problems for HUD text, not to speak of making jump-point bubbles invisible. They need to be toned down, IMHO.
 
*nods* They seem like they are grouped similar to the way we group constellations.

The only thing that sticks out in my mind right now is something (I think one of the manuals) somewhere talking about how, with the current technology and methods of travel, actual spatial relationships of stars is useless for navigation (sorry, have read too much WC stuff in recent days to remember where that was).

*chuckles* You really like those asteroids. If I ever get answers to my questions about systems and get to creating a framework, you want I should put lots of them in?

-thehawk
 
spiritplumber said:
Seems to me that sectors are mostly arbitrary -- this said, nothing prevents us from putting the Gemini-Auriga jump point (for example) after a lot of asteroids.

What I was just thinking is: Say Gemini were lllloooooooooooonnngggg between jump-points, and besides having asteroid fields *at* the jump points, it could have fog and occasional floating rocks, so that AUTO never comes on: You fly and fly through fog, sometimes getting your windshield pelted by small stones, and ever watchful for medium-sized rocks, or asteroids showing up ahead.

This would be simply a matter of taking the current model of roid field and just "stretching" it, so that it becomes very large, but with the rocks far apart; and adding fog.

Do you have a way to control fog from python? Otherwise I can look at the vegastrike source, see if I can find a function to enable it.

If people agree of course.

I'm not sure whether the Gemini system already existed in other WC games, and whether this would contradict them.
 
Well the gemini system is in the Big WCU Map Of Doom (that came with Prophecy) , so I guess it does exist... as to asteroids... I had a similar thought for the Tri-System (if we want to implement it) to make it hard to get into/out of and thus explain it's isolation. The main problem is that this is cute and fun teh first time but then becomes boring -- to navigate the "unpaved road" that is.
 
spiritplumber said:
The main problem is that this is cute and fun teh first time but then becomes boring -- to navigate the "unpaved road" that is.

Then whatever lies behind the "unpaved road" needs to be very intresting for people to travel back & forth. Maybe it's also possible to have randomly generated missions or danger's show up.

For the most part at the moment, the game's dangers exist as:

a) missions
b) pirates / factions
c) triggered story elements ( our little drone for one ;) )
d) the dynamic script, but for some reason this is faulty, sinds every faction is fighting each other. Don't get it, sinds the vega engine has a 20 or 30 factions, while only the major one's are fighting. Somewhere there seems to be data missing in the faction file who the enemy's are ( note: the older faction file that still exist did have hardcoded enemy's, while it's removed in the new one. I suspect it's writen somewhere else now, but the WC:p project manager never needed the factions enemy list, so they never added the correct enemy for each faction ) *pfew*, now that was fast typing ;)

(a) & (b) can be avoided, thus in reality, exept for some pirates, space is very calm. It's possible to generate missions, but is there some script that allows randomly triggered events/missions to start. This can help to remove the boredom in those long travels.

For instance: mark troy as value 3, junction as value 10. In other words, there is a 3% chance that every xx time, a event starts. While Junction ( a crossroad & more important point ), has a 10% chance.
 
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