Draymans had multiple turrets.

Phase shields and milspec torpedos WILL be in the next update -- it's being delayed because everyone's telling me "Oh, put this or that ship in, too!" I'm currently doing WC1 ships. Paradigms are corvettes actually -- they're supposed to be the counterparts of the Kamekh. Kamekhs don't have phase shields, so Paradigms don't either (besides they were destroyable with normal guns in Priv, although it took forever).

If the player wants to be able to attack capships, they need to find a phase-piercing weapon, such as torpedos.

I generally agree with the whole post -- I tried to make the capship "cockpit" view more of a helm station. (It's mostly recycled graphics from the Galaxy, still... doing te best I can here...)

Overall my take is: Do you want the best fighter in the galaxy? If you fly enough plot missions to get special equipment, you should be able to put together something which could hold its own against a Dragon. Do you want a merchant empire? Go for it. Do you want your own capship to start your personal war? Go for it. Do you want to..... <insert whatever here>? Go for it.

Making a "fleet management screen" is one of the executable modifications I'm discussing with hellcatv. This thing may very well end up incorporating what is basically a wing commander armada remake :) we need to work with the pyArmada guys for this I think...

A couple of Talons SHOULD have at least a theoretical chance with anything smaller than a Paradigm -- a flight of Demons should be able to take a Paradigm or Kamekh with their civilian issue torps. Anything bigger will require getting on a Broadsword/Sabre and hopefully hearing that awesome lock-on music again. :)

Phase shields are almost implemented successfully, gimme a day or two.

Note that the Steltek Gun happily ignores phase shields ;)
 
yeah, except that paradigms are small destoyers.

Here's an interesting question for you: What exactly *is* a small destroyer? Checking Wikipedia, this nice and concise definition is given:

In naval terminology, a destroyer is a fast and maneuverable yet long-endurance warship intended to escort larger vessels in a fleet or battle group and defend them against smaller, short-range attackers (originally torpedo boats, later submarines and aircraft).

With that definition in mind, it seems that a destroyer should be fully capable of "convincing" dozens of aircraft to keep their distance. Which is exactly what a destroyer does. In fact, the current model of Arleigh Burke class destroyers is loaded out with enough missiles to take down hundreds of aircraft. The end point of this being:

Nothing gets near the carrier. NOTHING. :)

For being destroyers, the paradigms and Kamekhs are woefully underpowered. They should not be spinning like maniacs, trying to bring their guns to bear, but instead they should be using their turrets and missile loadouts to take out anything that gets too near. (Speaking of which, missiles in the remake could stand to be improved as well. :)) I imagine the only reason why capships in WC1 - Privateer were so wussy was that the technology of the time didn't allow for better capships. Note how much more difficult capships became in WC3. Torpedo runs were dangerous even AFTER you took out the escort!

As for the damage it can take, US destroyers usually have excellent armor that makes them very difficult to sink. It should be able to take a single torpedo and still operate at reduced capacity. Still, a destroyer's best defense is its hellacous offsense.

Reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer

spiritplumber said:
Paradigms are corvettes actually -- they're supposed to be the counterparts of the Kamekh. Kamekhs don't have phase shields, so Paradigms don't either (besides they were destroyable with normal guns in Priv, although it took forever).

This actually makes more sense. Corvettes are less ships of war, and more of patrol vessels that help keep the peace. They are not designed for fleet engagements, and would have a hard time holding their own in such battles. However, they are prickly little buggers, and you wouldn't want to be a Drayman running Brilliance when one comes around. :)

I generally agree with the whole post -- I tried to make the capship "cockpit" view more of a helm station. (It's mostly recycled graphics from the Galaxy, still... doing te best I can here...)

In case I haven't been clear on this point, I'd just like to say that you guys have been doing great work on the remake and WCU. Please don't think I'm in any way criticizing. I'm only trying to provide context to help improve the game and provide balance to the changes. :)

Overall my take is: Do you want the best fighter in the galaxy? If you fly enough plot missions to get special equipment, you should be able to put together something which could hold its own against a Dragon. Do you want a merchant empire? Go for it. Do you want your own capship to start your personal war? Go for it. Do you want to..... <insert whatever here>? Go for it.

Amen to that! :)
 
Phase shields and milspec torpedos WILL be in the next update -- it's being delayed because everyone's telling me "Oh, put this or that ship in, too!" I'm currently doing WC1 ships. Paradigms are corvettes actually -- they're supposed to be the counterparts of the Kamekh. Kamekhs don't have phase shields, so Paradigms don't either (besides they were destroyable with normal guns in Priv, although it took forever).

From the Privateer Player's Guide: "The Paradigm is one of the Confederations most advanced destroyers."

Overall my take is: Do you want the best fighter in the galaxy? If you fly enough plot missions to get special equipment, you should be able to put together something which could hold its own against a Dragon. Do you want a merchant empire? Go for it. Do you want your own capship to start your personal war? Go for it. Do you want to..... <insert whatever here>? Go for it.

That sounds like an RPG with a lousy Dungeon Master.

Note that the Steltek Gun happily ignores phase shields

It shouldn't. The only special thing about the Steltek gun should be that (when boosted) it can kill the Steltek Drone. Other than that, it's just a good (for the Gemini Sector) gun.
 
AKAImBatman said:
(clipped)

With that definition in mind, it seems that a destroyer should be fully capable of "convincing" dozens of aircraft to keep their distance. Which is exactly what a destroyer does. In fact, the current model of Arleigh Burke class destroyers is loaded out with enough missiles to take down hundreds of aircraft. The end point of this being:

Nothing gets near the carrier. NOTHING. :)

(clipped)

This actually makes more sense. Corvettes are less ships of war, and more of patrol vessels that help keep the peace. They are not designed for fleet engagements, and would have a hard time holding their own in such battles. However, they are prickly little buggers, and you wouldn't want to be a Drayman running Brilliance when one comes around. :)

Side notes: There are multiple destroyers per supercarrier.
General note: Arleigh Burke destroyers are essentially cruisers, despite class name, given that a Tico displaces about 9,600 tons, and a Burke displaces about 9,200 tons. Older Spruance destroyers displaced about 8,040 tons.

Flight IIA Burkes have a 96 cell VLS (Vertical Launch System) which carries a mix of anti-ship (Tomahawk), anti-surface (Tomahawk), and surface to air (Standard - SM-2) missiles, as well as 8 Harpoon anti-ship missiles and a Sea Sparrow close-range anti-air mount. This will not destroy hundreds of aircraft, and is generally intended to destroy inbound missiles as well.

Destroyer info from the Navy
 
Steltek gun: right now the way it kills the (impenetrable) Steltek shields is by ignoring them. So it would also ignore phase shields...

I'm not giving the Paradigm phase shields because the Kamekh doesn't have them and the Paradigm didn't have them in the original... it's a bit too big of a change for me to make... the reason why I called the paradigm a corvette (OK, it's a big corvette probably, being that it was designed AFTER the Kamekh and probably with the intention of besting it if it comes to a one-on-one) is specifically that it doesn't have phaseshields.

Lousy DM: I'm making sure stuff can happen (i.e. ships are there and fly properly), what will happen is up to plotline writers. Right now I prefer to keep options open...
 
sexydrayman.jpg


oh wait a minute now....here's another drayman....forgot about it
 
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That's actually a much cooler design than the Priv one....

Okay, where do we want the turrets on this one? How about sixteen around that circle thingy? *rimshot*

About corvettes -- a corvette is a small capship if you're Admiral Tolwyn. If you're Grayson Burrows in a beat up Tarsus, it's big and scary.
 
Nadrek said:
Side notes: There are multiple destroyers per supercarrier.

True, true.

General note: Arleigh Burke destroyers are essentially cruisers, despite class name, given that a Tico displaces about 9,600 tons, and a Burke displaces about 9,200 tons. Older Spruance destroyers displaced about 8,040 tons.

Truthfully, there's no modern distinction between a Destroyer, Cruiser, and a Torpedo Boat. A DDG is effectively a multi-roled vessel that wraps all three concepts into one. Oh, and it has a helipad, a hanger, and two helicopters. :)

Flight IIA Burkes have a 96 cell VLS (Vertical Launch System) which carries a mix of anti-ship (Tomahawk), anti-surface (Tomahawk), and surface to air (Standard - SM-2) missiles, as well as 8 Harpoon anti-ship missiles and a Sea Sparrow close-range anti-air mount. This will not destroy hundreds of aircraft, and is generally intended to destroy inbound missiles as well.

You forgot the 5" deck guns. Still, point taken. I was getting a little overzealous when I stated "hundreds of aircraft". A WWII era destroyer may have been expected to screen that many, but in modern warfare you'd never see that many planes in the air. Still, an DDG should be able to wipe the floor of an attacking wing of planes. Its advanced array of sensors and CIC personel help ensure that the DDGs don't miss. :D

I can't wait for some of the DDXs to hit the waters. Sporting "directed energy weapons", these Destroyer/Cruisers will be able to open a can of woopass on anyone at anytime. And with the new railguns, they'll even be able to act as mini-battleships for land and water bombardment! My only concern with these ships is that during combat operations they'll be burning fuel like nobody's business. It wouldn't surprise me at all if future cruiser/destroyers (the CG(X) class?) would sport nuclear power systems. Although, one has to wonder how much the CVN(X) will need it screening group after it is bristling with these new weapons? Might explain why the WC carriers seem to run around with an escort. :)
 
Steltek gun: right now the way it kills the (impenetrable) Steltek shields is by ignoring them. So it would also ignore phase shields...

You should put that in the 'to be fixed' column, then -- Steltek shields != phase shields.

I'm not giving the Paradigm phase shields because the Kamekh doesn't have them and the Paradigm didn't have them in the original... it's a bit too big of a change for me to make... the reason why I called the paradigm a corvette (OK, it's a big corvette probably, being that it was designed AFTER the Kamekh and probably with the intention of besting it if it comes to a one-on-one) is specifically that it doesn't have phaseshields.

Ship classes aren't defined by whether or not they have phase shields - the Paradigm is a destroyer which doesn't have them (in the WC2 gameplay sense, anyway -- remember that Privateer takes place in 2669, when all shields are a development of phase shields.)

I don't think the development histories have anything in common -- Kamekhs were around in 2654, and the Paradigm didn't enter service until 2663... and, per Origin FX, it was designed for anti-piracy actions in 'safe sectors' (like Gemini).
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I don't think the development histories have anything in common -- Kamekhs were around in 2654, and the Paradigm didn't enter service until 2663... and, per Origin FX, it was designed for anti-piracy actions in 'safe sectors' (like Gemini).

Erm... that would make it a mis-classified corvette.
 
Yeah, I'm sorry, all the literature they published in two releases about the Paradigm was wrong, it's really *secretly* a corvette.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Yeah, I'm sorry, all the literature they published in two releases about the Paradigm was wrong, it's really *secretly* a corvette.

Are you always this cynical?

Origin can call it a Destroyer all they want, but for the context of the game we have to figure out if it's *actually* a destroyer or a Corvette. Now a Destroyer is generally deployed as an anti-torpedo boat ship (i.e. Torpedo Boat Destroyer) and is not designed for independent operations. The modern variant has grown into anti-sub, and anti-aircraft as well, and *is* capable of limited independent operations. However, as another poster pointed out, the modern destroyer is actually a mis-classified Cruiser. The reasons behind this mis-classification are complex, but they mostly boil down to politics and making the ships seem less expensive on paper.

A Corvette OTOH, is a costal patrol boat that is capable of independent operations, but only to the point of monitoring merchant traffic and high-seas piracy. In other words, it's a rather small gun-ship that is designed to outclass everything short of a true military vessel.

With those definitions in mind, the literature would seem to suggest that the Paradigm is actually a Corvette. The Kamekh would have to be classed in a similar fashion if it weren't for the fact that it acts as an outsystem escort. Soooo.... I'd classify them both as Frigates (pretty much a mini-destroyer) and call it a day. Such a classification would have little effect on the gameplay and provide room for a REAL destroyer to move in. Such as the Shefield class. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigate

P.S. Contrary to popular opinion, the name of one ship DOES make the class. That is, if the ship is the first of its class. ;)
 
Modern definitions have very little to do with Wing Commander, though.

If the Paradigm isn't a destroyer, then neither are any of the other ships that share the same role and classification - Exeters, Gilgameshes, the WC3 destroyers, etc. In Wing Commander, destroyer refers to a certain size of line warship -- wholly distinct from a corvette, which is more of a step up from a heavy bomber (in size and role).

(This unrelationship is especially true in the case of the frigate, which Wing Commander has wholly redefined - frigates in Wing Commander are *larger* than destroyers and cruisers, owing to their reliance on expendable munitions (FoF launchers, CSMs, etc.) rather than energy weapons.)

There's no indication that the Sheffield is the first ship in her class -- there is indication that destroyers in the Wing Commander universe are produced by the thousands... making it incredibly unlikely that the one we happened to see was the first one ever built.
 
Right now WCU has the Paradigm as a big corvette, something I pulled out of my ass as a small corvette (will be replaced by the Venture in the next release) used by the militia as their cap ship, it looks like an older lumpier smaller paradigm because the idea is that it was an older version that got transfered over to insys security, and the Caernaven as a frigate (big-ass missile launchers WAI!). I dont know a thing about military ships (only ship I've ever served on was a 50 foot schooner for about a month, great summer job AND you get the best tan of your life) and will take the general consensus for it... I just mostly felt that the Paradigm DID serve a "big coast guard" role mostly, given the game. I guess that the Paradigm is to a light destroyer or a heavy corvette as the Sorthak is to a bomber or a light corvette -- something sorta here and there.

Hey, maybe the Paradigm is a transsexual ship? ^-^ Maybe it was designed as a destroyer but felt more comfortable being a corvette and so they let it. Nothing wrong with that.
 
The Sorthak is officially classified as a "Superheavy Fighter". It's not really a bomber because it doesn't carry torpedoes.

The Paradigm-class has somewhat of a storied background, the TCS Paradigm herself appearing as the Confederation's flagship in an Origin FX module (dated 2663). Since there's no length or mass data for the Privateer ships, we don't really know how large the Paradigm is. It's probably best to go with the numerous sources that refer to it as a destroyer rather than the none that call it a corvette.
 
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