Armed Conflict Between Nations: What is it good for?

WCX

Rear Admiral
It’s stated in Action Stations that as of AD 2634 it had been a century (give or take a few years) since Confed was at war (with whom it is not stated, but could this be some sort of spat with the Free Republic of the Landreich? Possibly a war of independence?) In that time, Confed has grown lax and complacent, partially allowing the Kilrathi to make their famous strike on McAuliffe. Yet if we take the Pilgrim War into account (2632-2635) Confed’s military gets ramped up, culminating in the launch of the grand fleet in 2633.235.

Now, the Battle of McAuliffe took place on 2634.235. Confed didn’t come steaming into Beacon until 2634.359, and even then the Pilgrim Alliance’s negotiations and final surrender went from 2635.007 to 2635.049.

Simply put, the movie material has Confed as a rising power just coming out of a war at the onset of the Kilrathi War, while Action Stations has Confed as a power in (for lack of a better word) decline, with war a somewhat distant memory. Could someone offer an explanation that could make both scenarios work together so that I may sleep easy at night? :eek:
 

McGruff

Banned
Absolutely Nuthin'! Say it Again!!

But seriously, others here are better at rationalizing discrepancies than I am, but maybe it has to do with no formal declaration of war being issued. We know that Confed officially declared war on the Kilrathi Empire, but maybe previous conflicts were simply that - 'conflicts'. By the same reasoning, one could claim that the U.S. has not been at war for 60+ years.

It’s stated in Action Stations that as of AD 2634 it had been a century (give or take a few years) since Confed was at war (with whom it is not stated, but could this be some sort of spat with the Free Republic of the Landreich?

The Yan?
 

Mjr. Whoopass

<FONT color=lightblue><B>I was going to say someth
Perhaps the Pilgrims weren't seen as a huge threat compared to the Kilrathi or other alien cultures. Confed's military may still have been in decline and citizens may not have felt like paying higher taxes to support military spending just to deal with the Pilgrim threat.

The Cuban missile crisis included the Bay of Pigs Invasion and had much of our fleet making a blockade. Even though we are said to have had a "cold war", it generally isn't considered a war. Also, some may not exactly call the Bosnian conflict a 'war'. The grand fleet is a big deal, but maybe it was considered a peacekeeping mission or skirmish rather than an actual war.

It would seem to be a war to me, but I'm just trying to support the continuity. It IS a huge Universe, so perhaps even a large battle or two localized in single solar systems could become less significant in the huge scope of it. The clash between Confed and the Border Worlds isn't considered a war even though tens of thousands die as stations and capships explode and at least one planet is hit with bioweapons.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Jimmy Taggart told the federation
Have no fear of escalation.
I am trying everyone to please.
Though it isn't really war,
We're sending fifty billion more,
To help same Nephele from the Nephelese.

Okay, I suck.

Annnnnnnyway, I think the others have a good handle on it. The Pilgrim War was a conflict that involved a dozen systems out of a thousand... and much of it consisted of guerilla-style and terrorist attacks on the part of the Pilgrims, which were eventually responded to with overwhelming force. The famous 'battle' that took up most of the war wasn't even fighting - it was a long massed siege. I'm sure it was horrible for people in the Luyten system, but it wasn't what anything like the Kilrathi War.

Action Stations' military was definately used to fighting this sort of war - Banbridge and Turner talk about their own illustrious history fighting planets full of terrorists years earlier.
 

WCX

Rear Admiral
First off, a few thing:

McGruff: You win a cookie for not only replying first, but replying in the correct manor.:D

Mjr. Whoopass: An impeccable analysis.:cool:

LOAF: You just kicked ass in the 4 essential ways.:)

Banbridge and Turner talk about their own illustrious history fighting planets full of terrorists years earlier.

Planets full of terrorists. Now there is an interesting story (and idea) unto itself. Then again, Confed sure has a lot of domestic enemies (Pilgrims, Mandarins, the Church of Man, the occasional spy).



Ok, now my rant:

war.jpg


While I’m inclined to agree about the Pilgrim War not being considered a real / traditional war, the Confed manual states that war was indeed declared:

2632.017 [Celeste, Celeste System] A Pilgrim fleet destroys a Confederation mining colony and military base on Celeste.

2632.018 [Earth, Sol System] The Terran Confederation formally declares war on the Pilgrim Alliance.

Granted the Pilgrim Alliance composed only 12 systems, compared to the mighty nation that is Confed. One does wonder what was in the heads of those silly Newtypes, er, I mean Pilgrims. Then again, World War 2 is a rather good analogy of nations with dreams, and delusions, of grandeur biting off more than they can chew.

And while the Pilgrims did start it, Confed's response appears to have been (somewhat) swift and terrible.
May I be so bold as to suggest that Confed’s heavy-handed response to the situation may have been one of the things that made Daimon Karnes lose his faith in the Confederation?

That aside, the movie material makes frequent mention of the Peron Massacre (which claimed Blair’s parents), and I can’t help but try to envision what this may have been:
Could it be a case where a great number of civilian and refugee craft are used as shields for PA forces (similar to the Battle for Earth), or the PA throwing hundreds, if not thousands of weaker craft (your TIE Fighter/Leo/Dralthi equivalent) at a smaller but better armed Confed force, or just a lot of people trying to escape and getting caught in the cross fire?




Initially I’d disagree, saying that the Confederation (or should I say Federation/WEC) had its fight with the Yan on or around 2300. However, there is no evidence to suggest that there wasn’t a second conflict with the Yan. (I find it rather unlikely of a war being fought, be it continues or on-and-off, from 2300-2534 and not getting much more mentions than a simple historical reference.)

Next to nothing is known about the Yan save for the facts that:

1. They must have been at a similar level of technological development as humanity at the time.

2. They attacked humanity when it was unprepaired to fight, though they don’t appear to have put quite the effort into their fight as the Kilrathi.

3. They have tails, which are extremely rare trade commodities by 2701.


A nice (be it a little silly) fanfic floating around the internet titled Wing Commander: Confederation offers a completely fanon, but interesting summary of the Yan War.

It was then that the Yan race reared its ugly head over Sol System. The Terran Federation was caught off-guard, and despite the efforts of the best in the Diplomatic Corps, war had been inevitable from the start. Twenty years of hostilities, the billions of deaths. It had been the first space-based conflict in history, pitting the awkward hot fusion-powered crates that had been the only suitable craft for warfare of any kind against the "Yan cans," as they had been nicknamed by vets. If the technology level had stood in the Yan’s favor, the war could and likely would have gone in an entirely different and tragic direction. It was truly fortunate that the Yan and Federation had been roughly at the same point of advancement into the vaunted Space Age. By 2388, the pendulum of war at last swung to the battered Federation. The Yan were wandering nomads that traveled system-to-system looking for easily-had habitable worlds to deposit colonies and supplies. The Federation, though merely a birthing space power of the WEC at the time, gave the Yan the fight of their lives. So they left. The war ended.

But file these away with the Mantu and Steltek under “Aliens we want to know more about, but most likely never will”. *SIGH*
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
While I’m inclined to agree about the Pilgrim War not being considered a real / traditional war, the Confed manual states that war was indeed declared:

I've occasionally likened the Pilgrim War to the Mexican Expedition: in that it's something we would probably remember a lot more seriously if the country hadn't immediately become involved in a much more serious war which was fought on a much grander scale.

That said, I've also likened it to the Mexican War - a large scale conflict, incredibly popular in its day but completely overshadowed historically by the Civil War.

I think the fight itself goes the same way: the Confederation issues a call to arms to avenge an attack on a distant outpost, it gets an outpouring of support from the populace and it dispatches a grand army which easily outguns and outfights the other nation... and then a second to finish the job when the first digs in.

(The ultimate contribution was the same, too - the officers who cut their teeth fighting Pilgrims were the ones who eventually ran the Kilrathi war.)

Planets full of terrorists. Now there is an interesting story (and idea) unto itself. Then again, Confed sure has a lot of domestic enemies (Pilgrims, Mandarins, the Church of Man, the occasional spy).

Yeah, yeah, well, you know who else is facing five Goliaths? America: Al Qaeda, global warming, sex predators... mercury poisoning...

The first years of the 27th century might be a lot more interesting than we've assumed. There are a few nuggets of terrorism in what we know about that era.

The Confederation Handbook mentions terrorist attacks on Mimas (by 'Mimite Terrorists') which kill Paladin's biological parents in 2613 and then which destroy the colony's records in 2624. Then Action Stations' flashes back to Turner and Ulandi's fighting "drugged out" terrorists who are threatening to destroy an unspecified colony world in 2614...

Both stories are left wide open - these could be early volleys in the Pilgrim conflict, they could be Church of Man extremists, it could be a colonial independance movement... or it could be that the Confederation has never been as happy as we've wanted to assume.

(Also, take special note of how Action Stations deals with its terrorists - classifying the operation to take them out to the point that it can't be mentioned thirty years later... I wonder how much of that sort of procedure might apply to the Pilgrim War.)

That aside, the movie material makes frequent mention of the Peron Massacre (which claimed Blair’s parents), and I can’t help but try to envision what this may have been:
Could it be a case where a great number of civilian and refugee craft are used as shields for PA forces (similar to the Battle for Earth), or the PA throwing hundreds, if not thousands of weaker craft (your TIE Fighter/Leo/Dralthi equivalent) at a smaller but better armed Confed force, or just a lot of people trying to escape and getting caught in the cross fire?

That's a good question - we don't know much other than that it was seven months of Confederation 'sorties and counter-offensives' to try and break the siege which killed more Pilgrims than any other battle. At one point in Pilgrim Stars Angel uses it as her 'this is even worse than' analogy... which suggests that it was pretty bad.

I see two possibilities in my mind:

* Peron is Troy, and the frustrated victors sack the place during the final battle. Soldiers who've watched their units suffer horrific casualties in failed attack after failed attack over the seven months end up murdering civilians en masse as revenge for the war.

* Peron is Vicksburg and the Confederation starves the population into submission - disease, starvation and lack of other supplies causes the massacre. The Pilgrim memory of Peron is of their parents cooking space-dogs and shoes and such rather than space marines shooting innocents.

It’s stated in Action Stations that as of AD 2634 it had been a century (give or take a few years) since Confed was at war (with whom it is not stated, but could this be some sort of spat with the Free Republic of the Landreich?

I missed this one the first time around: the Free Republic of the Landreich didn't exist in the 26th century... it wasn't a recognized and independant nation until the 2650s.
 
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