Are the Mantu and the Nephilim one and the same?
- Thread starter Wulf
- Start date
) tells us straight out that the Mantu and the Nephilim are not the same race.Spiritplumber III
Spaceman
I'm not a canon-god, but:
* The Nephilim ARE the bug race.
* We haven't seen the Mantu yet.
* The Nephilim ARE the bug race.
* We haven't seen the Mantu yet.
Nomad Terror
Rear Admiral
A lot of people wonder about this, but it just turns out not to be the case.
Sorry. :>
Sorry. :>
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Ah, the Mantu.
Let me start off with the disclaimer - short answer: no, the Mantu are not the Nephilim.
The longer answer is that the two are actually quite distinct.
The Mantu are a 'historic' enemy; they fought two conflicts with the Kilrathi - a war which ended in a draw in 2431 and then a brief skirmish in 2598. Per Prophecy's ICIS manual, the Mantu are a race of insular explorers who were probably attacked by the Kilrathi in the first place. The Kilrathi spent two hundred years demonizing the Mantu as being an ultimate evil, just as they have begun to do with humans in the TPoF novelization (creating a cult around Blair's destruction of Sivar).
The Nephilim, however, are much more ancient: they are the 'Star Gods' which appeared around 1600 BC and challenged pre-historic Kilrathi to a conflict. Finding the Kilrathi "unworthy" of trial by combat, the Nephilim ordered them to advance themselves through conquest. The Nephilim promised to return either to conduct the ultimate test or to wipe out the remaining Kilrathi should they ever fail in battle against another species. This formed the basis of Kilrathi religious belief, and is one of the reasons for their expansionism (and, somewhat appropriately, their fear of losing in battle to the Mantu and the humans).
Read on for some discussion of the history of the subject.
The assumption is usually that Origin asked Dr. Forstchen to include the Mantu in the novels as a reference to future events. Rather, the exact opposite is true - the author took the initiative and created the references based on then-vauge possibilities for the future of the series.
The Mantu's inclusion in Fleet Action (and then the two game-based novelizations) was based on a conversation between Dr. Forstchen and David Ladyman about the long term future of the Wing Commander series. Origin had already decided to end the Kilrathi conflict in Wing Commander III, and the vauge plans for the future were that a new alien enemy would be brought for future games. Forstchen siezed on the possibility and began to reference the Mantu, a historic enemy whom even the Kilrathi feared.
Origin, of course, went with the 'human versus human' Wing Commander IV story and the vauge future aliens remained vauge. By the time development of Prophecy began, the Mantu had been developed somewhat (see above) in novel references... and the Prophecy team decided to create a new race with a distinct backstory (see above again). Prophecy's ICIS Manual includes a 'retcon' explanation of the Mantu, claiming some of the above to explain why they weren't actually a threat to humans.
Note that one novel published closer to Prophecy does contain a reference to the Nephilim: Action Stations' talk of a warlike empire coreward discovered by a Confederation deep space probe is in reference to the Nephilim rather than the Mantu.
Let me start off with the disclaimer - short answer: no, the Mantu are not the Nephilim.
The longer answer is that the two are actually quite distinct.
The Mantu are a 'historic' enemy; they fought two conflicts with the Kilrathi - a war which ended in a draw in 2431 and then a brief skirmish in 2598. Per Prophecy's ICIS manual, the Mantu are a race of insular explorers who were probably attacked by the Kilrathi in the first place. The Kilrathi spent two hundred years demonizing the Mantu as being an ultimate evil, just as they have begun to do with humans in the TPoF novelization (creating a cult around Blair's destruction of Sivar).
The Nephilim, however, are much more ancient: they are the 'Star Gods' which appeared around 1600 BC and challenged pre-historic Kilrathi to a conflict. Finding the Kilrathi "unworthy" of trial by combat, the Nephilim ordered them to advance themselves through conquest. The Nephilim promised to return either to conduct the ultimate test or to wipe out the remaining Kilrathi should they ever fail in battle against another species. This formed the basis of Kilrathi religious belief, and is one of the reasons for their expansionism (and, somewhat appropriately, their fear of losing in battle to the Mantu and the humans).
Read on for some discussion of the history of the subject.
The assumption is usually that Origin asked Dr. Forstchen to include the Mantu in the novels as a reference to future events. Rather, the exact opposite is true - the author took the initiative and created the references based on then-vauge possibilities for the future of the series.
The Mantu's inclusion in Fleet Action (and then the two game-based novelizations) was based on a conversation between Dr. Forstchen and David Ladyman about the long term future of the Wing Commander series. Origin had already decided to end the Kilrathi conflict in Wing Commander III, and the vauge plans for the future were that a new alien enemy would be brought for future games. Forstchen siezed on the possibility and began to reference the Mantu, a historic enemy whom even the Kilrathi feared.
Origin, of course, went with the 'human versus human' Wing Commander IV story and the vauge future aliens remained vauge. By the time development of Prophecy began, the Mantu had been developed somewhat (see above) in novel references... and the Prophecy team decided to create a new race with a distinct backstory (see above again). Prophecy's ICIS Manual includes a 'retcon' explanation of the Mantu, claiming some of the above to explain why they weren't actually a threat to humans.
Note that one novel published closer to Prophecy does contain a reference to the Nephilim: Action Stations' talk of a warlike empire coreward discovered by a Confederation deep space probe is in reference to the Nephilim rather than the Mantu.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
They're still around. They're referenced in both Prophecy's ICIS Manual (which talks about how they have no sense of history) and the Secret Ops fiction (which has a story about how first contact with them went).
I never got a chance to read about that race in Prophecy's manual, because my mom accidentally spilled my Mountain Dew all over it!
criticalmass
Vice Admiral
Maybe we should stick a thread like this up somewhere, as the topic pops up regularly. Or include it in the encyclopaedia. Sheesh, I guess people will ask anyway.
By the way, aren't Talons the same as... - oh, forget it.
By the way, aren't Talons the same as... - oh, forget it.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
I would love to see a fan project including the Mantu... but only if this was done right. Unfortunately, we all know that it wouldn't be done right - in the context of a fan project, the Mantu would inevitably be turned into a Nephilim-like menace that must be stopped before it devours everything in its path. And that would really suck, because, thanks to the WCP manual, we know that the Mantu are most likely not interested in conquest, and probably not even especially interested in contact with other races (...how ironic, for a "race of explorers").Wulf said:That's disappointing, I want to bust up some Mantu! Maybe a future fan project will allow for it
LeHah
212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
If anything, Id say avoidance of the whole Mantu subject; its too vauge and like you (Quarto) said - it probably wouldnt be handled properly.
Besides, we have tons of other things that we know so much about before we start digging into the vauger aspects of WC Continuity.
Besides, we have tons of other things that we know so much about before we start digging into the vauger aspects of WC Continuity.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Well, really, ask yourself the meta-question: why should to alien races with different names ever be the same?
The Steltek again have a wholly unique backstory: they're a 'precursor' race that had a galaxy-spanning empire bllions of years ago... which they gave up, deciding their technology was too powerful.
The idea among the fandom that all these references should be amalgamated into one evil-for-no-reason alien race hasn't ever explained itself to me. It would seem, in my mind, to do a disservice to all three.
(And lets be honest: the Steltek are a for-the-sake-of-the-story element. They were created explicitly to aide Privateer's "lost artifact" story, and they haven't factored into anything else in Wing Commander ever.)
The Steltek again have a wholly unique backstory: they're a 'precursor' race that had a galaxy-spanning empire bllions of years ago... which they gave up, deciding their technology was too powerful.
The idea among the fandom that all these references should be amalgamated into one evil-for-no-reason alien race hasn't ever explained itself to me. It would seem, in my mind, to do a disservice to all three.
(And lets be honest: the Steltek are a for-the-sake-of-the-story element. They were created explicitly to aide Privateer's "lost artifact" story, and they haven't factored into anything else in Wing Commander ever.)
Edfilho
Cry some more!
TRue, origin made pretty clear that the Steltek are gone awya for good. They want nothing with us (besides clearing up the one fuck up they left behind). They don't care if the nephilim wipe us out or not. They have ABSOLUTELY no relation whatsoever with ANY other race.
And their ships look nothing like anything nephilim. Well, apart from being dark grey with green things and the nephilem being glistening organic black-to-green.
And their ships look nothing like anything nephilim. Well, apart from being dark grey with green things and the nephilem being glistening organic black-to-green.