[19:00] should we get started? [19:00] Allright [19:00] you want to start off LOAF? [19:01] Well, I guess we should start by seeing who all is here for the encyclopedia chat [19:01] I am [19:01] I'll participate [19:02] meeee [19:02] I guess I'm here more to listen in but if I can help in any way I'll try. [19:02] I'm here, and I'm up for an armada game later too [19:02] Eltee will get a transcript or something, he wanted to be here. [19:03] Max is asleep but wants to be updated [19:03] Allright, well, I did want to start this off with a little story about why all this matters. [19:04] *** Sylvester has quit IRC (Ping timeout) [19:04] Most of you all probably know that Chris and I, by virtue of the CIC, have been involved in a lot of official projects over the years [19:04] ack [19:04] Lots of WC projects that made it out and lots that didn't. [19:05] And I'd like to show you what happens when a company is asked to work on the franchise *without* an accurate reference. [19:05] Early in in Arena - which was called Conflict, then - 's development, Sean Penney forwarded Chris and I a 'setting' for the game that the guys at Gaia had come up with on their own [19:06] (Some backstory - the game was to have a single player campaign at the time) [19:06] And well, I think this speaks for itself, let me paste it. [19:06] hmm [19:06] (this'll take a second, a few paragraphs) [19:06] There are many types of conflicts in the universe. Conflicts that mold galaxies, make history, and manipulate lives. Perhaps the most common form of conflict is the conflict of interest, especially today. A time, when the Galaxy is divided and some species are profiting while others are simply not, or worse. It is a time when the line between friend and foe is constantly changing; a time when prejudice and hate still roam free. [19:07] It has been 82 years since the Burning Battle. This great battle was suppose to determine the fates of the Confederation and Kilrathi once and for all, the feud was to come to an end, one way or another. Each side had gathered their best pilots to the [T'lan [JC1] Meth] sector preparing for the final showdown. Without warning a massive explosion (Dooms Day Weapon) powerful enough to wipe out 12 planets was detonated, resulting [19:07] Both sides blamed one another, but it didn’t matter, the damage was done Both the Confederation and Kilrathi empires were crippled. The result: an inevitable cease fire which in its own way, secured peace throughout the galaxy. [19:07] sorry bout that [19:07] *** Sylvester has joined #wingnut [19:07] damn connection [19:07] Some say the Burning Battle was a blessing in disguise, while others feel it was a conspiracy and seek vengeance on the conspirators. Only two things are known for sure: [19:07] *** Sylvester has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [19:07] One, the [T'lan Meth] sector has been vacant from any life for almost a century now. [19:07] [19:07] And two, the tragedy has forced the Kilrathi and Confederation forces to strengthen their relationship, to the point were peace talks have emerged between the once rival empires. [19:08] These talks have sparked entirely new issues for the Confederation, hurling it into its first civil war. Sides are being drawn and erased with every new conclusion. The confederate forces are now divided, fighting each other over this new tomorrow. [19:08] [19:08] With war, comes opportunity. The only people that seem to be comfortable in this era of confusion and deceit are the Privateers, a mercenary spacer who may profit by trading, performing various missions, or pirating. In a time of conflict, the opportunties are endless. [19:08] (End) [19:08] wow [19:08] hmm [19:08] not exactly awe inspiring [19:08] Now, obviously, we were at a loss for words. [19:08] *** Sylvester has joined #wingnut [19:08] So basically a whole lot of something that has to do with nothing. [19:08] I should note that in the original document BURNING BATLE is bolded and italicized [19:08] WoW does sum it up appropriately, yes. [19:09] so you want WCPedai to be not only a reference for fans, but also to potential future developers ? [19:09] WCPedia [19:10] Now there was a happy ending (sort of) -- we told them what we thought, reccomended some resources and about 36 hours later there was an elaborate 15-series single player storyline full of references to just about every game and book. [19:10] (It's not *that* happy since it was cut, but you get the point) [19:11] not a bad turn around [19:11] And we've seen this all the time -- False Colors made it all the way to the very last edit with Doomsdays' last name being 'Dumas' and Sparks' being 'Sparkowski'. [19:11] ewww [19:11] ouch [19:11] And it was only a coincidence that got that fixed - we happened to know it was a problem because Andrew m entioned it a year earlier, and then the editor contacted me about the spelling of Kilrathi words. [19:11] sparkowski? [19:11] I'll take McCullogh [19:12] Andrew Keith had the previous novels for reference, but not the games - so he thought he was actually doing everybody a favor naming the characters. [19:12] But I digress -- this is really important because it will be a reference for developers. [19:12] And I probably shouldn't say that Chris and I *have* been contacted about exactly these sort of things since Arena shipped. [19:13] So lets figure out some nuts and bolts [19:13] i can understand that, our information is probably more accurate than even the materials that EA has [19:13] Oh, let me grab a piece of that unused 15-part storyline.... [19:13] *** Soulsphere has joined #wingnut [19:13] we are essentially the keepers of the canon [19:13] Hey [19:13] Hello [19:13] that's pretty stunning [19:14] For: Epsilon Labs (Vance Richards) [19:14] Briefing: [19:14] According to a series of transmissions recently picked up by the D 3S 5, the good scientists on Veratek have recently finished their examinations of an abandoned Nephilim craft rescued from a hidden wormhole system nearby. They’re not so slow as to transmit the details of their findings on any frequency, but the encryption used to conceal the rest of their communication is a cipher they should know better than to bother with. [19:14] Our preferred customers at the Remin-Krug have called in a bit of outside help in intercepting this Carrier, enlisting the aid of a pair of Kilrathi aces in disabling the Carrier. One of them, “Deathstroke” – with whom I know you’re acquainted – is to handle the Confed squadron of escort vessels while the other, a torpedo ace by the name of Bhuk "Bloodmist" nar Hhallas is on Carrier detail. I’m looking forward to a h [19:14] There’s a role for you in all of this, however – as our Kilrathi friends are not the diplomatic sort, the Remin-Krug are slow to entrust them with the delicate matter of retrieving the craft and its assigned examination crew after their inevitable ejection from the crippled vessel. In addition to assisting Deathstroke with the escort squadron, you are to tractor in the Nephilim ship and its crew of scientists as they attempt [19:14] I will contact you with instructions regarding an optimal jump point for escape after you’ve got the craft securely in hand. Good luck. [19:14] That's 36 hours later [19:14] holy cow [19:14] wow [19:14] hehehe D 3S 5 [19:15] intersting [19:15] you sure did fast :p [19:15] I didn't write any of that, that was all somebody at Gaia [19:15] I think EA threatening them made them learn fast, though. [19:15] certainly seems so [19:15] did they use the old encyclopedia? [19:16] or was it all you guys? [19:16] No, I've never reccomended the old encyclopedia:) [19:16] hehehe [19:16] I think in this case I just gave them primary sources [19:16] And they actually went and read novels and stuff [19:16] Sent in the WC1 and 2 scripts [19:17] wow, good on those gaia guys to do all that [19:17] So, what do we need to decide tonight? [19:17] well we need to figure out where we stand with WC1 [19:17] I'd really like to see a unified system for the timeline [19:17] a lot has been done but there is still quite a bit to be done [19:17] I think we need a new way to build up from a game [19:17] why not just one timeline article with links to subsections [19:17] we need to create some standards for articles and layouts [19:18] (which was where I was going with those 'mission' entries) [19:18] It's too bad Origin eventually went under. But it's great that people, like you guys, are trying to keep some of their legacy alive. [19:18] We also need to determine a set style, like where bolding should go in each page. [19:18] I was trying to decide on layouts with the WC1 capships...but still lack some of the Wiki editing skills [19:19] well [19:19] i think the capships should follow wikipedia's style with US warships [19:19] a box on the side with all the essential info [19:19] and then the meat of the article detailing the ship's history [19:19] instead of tables? [19:19] Lets start with timeline [19:19] ok [19:19] I'd really like to get things cleaned up to a particular standard that we can all base future pages on. [19:19] Like, choose some pages as being the best in their category [19:20] yeah [19:20] From there, similar pages can be cleaned up to that standard [19:20] It might be cool if you could click on a specific part of the ship (specific weapon, for instance) and that would link you to information on the specific system. [19:21] well yeah [19:21] like in a wikipedia article [19:21] Yeah, I think that will happen [19:21] we have AMG linked [19:21] if you click on it [19:21] you find out about the anti-matter gun [19:21] let's not get ahead of ourselves [19:21] Right, basics first [19:21] otherwise we'll be babbling about everything and deciding nothing [19:21] For timeline, my vision is that there's a Timeline index which is a list of years and year-broad events... and then you click on each year and get events that ahppen in that year, plus links to specific days. [19:22] yeah [19:22] so an overall timeline, instead of articles detailing the timeline as shown in each principal game? [19:22] Oh, I created an example of what I think the timeline pages could look like [19:22] http://www.wcnews.com/wcpedia/Timeline_Format_Proposal#2654.111 [19:22] err, http://www.wcnews.com/wcpedia/Timeline_Format_Proposal [19:23] So there would be a page like that for each year? Or one page overall? [19:23] It puts the basics of every event on one page, and if you want more information on a particular day, you click on it for more [19:23] one for each year, that would be the 2654 page [19:23] Could we still link to a particular day from an entry? [19:24] probably it would link to the page [19:24] *** Kyran has joined #wingnut [19:24] with an automatic command to scroll down to the day [19:24] I guess it builds in anchor links [19:24] with a redirect page it should be possible [19:25] That's a good idea, it could link directly to the day and the day could redirect to the timeline page [19:25] Allright, easy enough. [19:25] I guess I like the idea of seeing a whole year in one page, as long as we understand that certain years will be really long. [19:26] And one year in particular will be really really really long. [19:26] Yeah, most years will be pretty short [19:26] yeah I don't see too much of a problem as long as the index is at the top [19:26] Mostly I want a way to best address less specific dates [19:26] what year is that? [19:27] 2669? [19:27] In past timelines we've said "two centuries ago" was exactly 200 years from whenever that line was spoken, and the like [19:27] 2654 should be the biggest [19:27] WC1, SM1, SM1.5, the movie, Claw Marks, Pilgrim Stars, Pilgrim Truth (someday), etc. [19:27] Events of unspecified dates can go at the top of the page for that year, along with general events of that year like in the example [19:28] Well, that's likely everything we need to decide about timelines for the moment. [19:28] and for the "200 years ago" thing [19:28] the timeline can be like circa 2650s [19:28] Until we get to things like whether or not there are leap years in Wing Commander... [19:28] or circa 2320s [19:29] hehe [19:29] hehehe [19:29] hahaha [19:29] Centuries could get their own pages, with links to individual years in them, along with general, undated events of that century [19:29] well I suggest putting Vinman in charge of timeline construction for the time being [19:29] You laugh, but I've lost so many friends over that argument... [19:29] i could create capital ship templates [19:29] I'd be ok with that [19:30] The question is: how are you going to break it up if a single event takes several years? Or is that not a problem? I guess you'd just break it up into the main events of each year anyway. [19:30] yeah [19:30] I think it would have to be noted in the larger index [19:30] *** KrisV is now known as KrisV_Away [19:31] like the Vega Campaign? [19:31] or other campaigns? [19:31] That could be in a decade page [19:31] yeah [19:31] we'd have pages for centuries, decades and then years [19:31] Yeah, the Vega Campaign could be its own entry and could be referenced in the 2600s Century page [19:31] or in the 2650s decade page [19:31] well I think once we have the year pages created it would be easy to also create categories for organization [19:31] Hopefully most events have more specific data -- so we'd have plenty of specifics about The Vega Campaign throughout the timeline... but it seems like the overall timeline index should have that sort of notation too. [19:31] yeah [19:32] And even the years, oir decade can simply vae a "During the Vega Campaign" or "Vega campaign continues..." [19:32] At least two stories we know take place over year markers, too... Secret Missions 1 and False Colors [19:32] off topic question - is this encyclopedia to only incude officially released wing commander products? [19:32] yes [19:32] Well, we can talk about that [19:32] surely something like Standoff deserves mention somewhere [19:32] My feeling was that it could have fan material if it were properly segregated [19:33] has everyone seen how I've organized fan images? [19:33] from ship entries [19:33] So for a character who appears in Standoff, if the Standoff people so desire, there could be a separate area for that. [19:33] Oh, that reminds me, I was thinking that at the bottom there could be a section that exists out of the WC universe where it says "Wing Commander II begins" and things like that [19:33] most certainly [19:34] Yeah, we shouldn't be afraid of going out-of-continuity [19:34] (In some areas) [19:34] at the bottom of this page is how I've seperated fan art [19:34] http://www.wcnews.com/wcpedia/Bengal-Class_Strike_Carrier [19:34] how is that fan art though? [19:34] all of those are screencaps [19:35] He's talking about the link at th ebottom [19:35] oh, missed that! [19:35] I've put the links at the very bottom of the page [19:35] so they come after everything cannonical [19:35] what about grey area. Like Bossman's death and subsequent rebirth? [19:35] Well, that brings me partially to something I wanted to talk about. [19:35] *** Worf has joined #WingNut [19:35] hey worf [19:36] hey [19:36] The last time we tried this I made a big list of things from the game and people filled them in [19:36] Dundradal: re fan page. Looks good, but what about a fan art catagory too? [19:36] Which worked, but it didn't work *great*. [19:36] Steven: that would come at some point...those are just tests [19:37] So my new concept is that we build everything up from a backbone which is half how the game works and half what creates the timeline - the missions themselves [19:37] Take a look at this demo I built a few days ago http://www.wcnews.com/wcpedia/Alpha_Wing_%28Enyo_System%29 [19:37] We would go through a game and construct upwards from there. [19:37] oh, interesting [19:37] only the winning storyline, though, right? [19:38] It depends [19:38] We'd use the guides and novels to help in that respect [19:38] oh, yeah, that would mean missing the hvar'kann and k'ha'haf [19:38] The WC1/2 guide makes a story out of all the WC1 missions, but throws out the extra WC2 missions [19:38] Looks good laof. We (you, whatever) do of course have permission to you scans from the strat guide? [19:39] But we'd probably stick all the missions in, so they're there... just not include them in the timeline. [19:39] that's cool [19:39] and he's right about the guides [19:39] like for example [19:39] Blair doesnt' win the Locanda mission in the WC3N [19:39] so we'd put the losing version of the mission in [19:40] We have general permission, but it's not something that would hold up in court. [19:40] he also chases hobbes in the novel, which is clearly the wrong idea in the game [19:40] illicit activites :D [19:40] Isn't there a way to just cover all "alternate versions" where they exist? [19:40] Origin actually hosted our site way back when, to promote Secret Ops - and the PR folks at the time provided a list of what we couldn't use at the site... and approved a lot of seemingly iffy stuff ( like the WCA vids) [19:41] Now, Dave Swofford and Carly Staehlin don't work for Origin anymore, and Origin doesn't exist... but I'll stick to that mandate. [19:41] and the problem is that EA could choose to revoke said permission? [19:41] (until told otherwise) [19:41] We'll probably need a page with authorized sources and those that we can't quote verbatim [19:41] EA has always been very, very kind to us, and we've worked with them in the past (for their benefit) [19:41] I think you can leave that to us to worry about [19:42] As for losing missions - include both, but only include the official narrative in the timeline. [19:42] should there be some sort of notation in the timeline that its an "Alternate" mission? [19:43] No, I just wouldn't include it in the timeline at all. [19:43] not timeline [19:43] sorry - on the page itself [19:43] noting that offical events did not go this way? [19:44] Yes, the missions will need intro descriptions [19:44] That include information like that [19:45] wow - i was looking at the terran confederation article [19:46] that needs a little work [19:46] There are some iffy entries [19:46] for example [19:46] And it's tough to moderate, because obviously people are doing their best [19:46] it has the declaration of war in 2629 [19:46] Which is why we need our key team working from a point forward, to make sure everything is covered. [19:47] yeah [19:47] so the timeline is our most important venture then [19:47] Back to coninuity for a moment, my feeling is we should be absolutely honest about where there's a contradiction or where one has been claimed. No need to create our own material to 'cover' anything. [19:47] The timeline is an important backbone [19:47] like the first mission briefing for example? [19:47] where the time of day is contradicted in the same scene [19:47] Something that would evolve naturally from the missions [19:47] Right, I just went ahead and mentioned that [19:48] Obviously you can come up with ten explanations right now... but it's not something that's in our mandate. [19:48] I wonder if Confed. would have some sort of prediction intel. Maybe something that gave the plausible events of what may have happened had the mission been loss/won. That might give a reason why you guys could post up events that never happened in canon, but depended on the success/failure of a given mission. [19:49] nah, that's too complicated [19:49] Just note the discrepency and move on. An encylopedia is facts.. [19:49] all you need to do is note in the mission description that its from the losing path [19:49] for example [19:49] People can speculite in other places. :) [19:49] even though you can win at Gwynedd in WC2 [19:49] SO1 assumes you won at K'Mang [19:50] right, that's what the Aces are for, steven [19:50] :) [19:50] Now how do we feel about citations? [19:51] they make my hair stand on end? [19:51] Well, you legally have to use them. [19:52] Which standard? [19:52] um [19:52] well [19:52] the thing is that this is the authority on this information [19:53] where would we cite it from/ [19:53] ? [19:53] have a citation link to an ebay auction for WC1? [19:53] :P [19:53] Err, well, take an entry about Hunter... how and to what elvel do we note what material has been consulted at a particular time? [19:53] No Sylvester, Just soming like [1] From WC1, Enyo 1 [19:54] oh, citations are my weak spot, I don't have a clue how to make them [19:54] I like the MLA standard, but then it's not really used on the internet much. [19:55] wait, wiki citations or citation citations? [19:55] Well, looking at other fan wikies, (wikia) I will admit I have never read a single citation. The few that are there. [19:56] If there is a question, it's always settled on the discussion page and what's on the article is then 'cannon' [19:56] sorry had a phone call [19:56] I don't think any real stylebook is going to have a system that covers the internals of video games [19:56] yeah, most video game wikis are very scarce on citations [19:57] So: how and to what degree of detail do we make it known that an article on Hunter has material from Claw Marks and Wing Commander I but not Freedom Flight yet? [19:57] but we can come up with a good system that takes into consideration the variety of sources we'd pull from [19:58] would the articles be written discretely enough that you could say whole chunks of text were from a certain source? [19:58] probably not over time [19:58] Citations laws are alwasy being updated. I wouldn't be too surprised if there's something pertaining to video games, or at least media (which video games would fall under). [19:58] you can reference certain events with superscripts [19:59] and then have them listed at the bottom of the page [19:59] instead of having to group writing depending on what source its from [19:59] I think that's APA style. [19:59] the article should be written in a way that appears in-universe [19:59] citation laws and practical systems for actually using citations in a wiki thing are two separate things [20:00] I'm not sure there are actual citation laws... it's something academia polices internally. [20:00] yeah [20:00] plagerism isn't illegal [20:00] just unethical [20:00] unless you create something that's copyrighted to something else [20:01] yeah, from our perspective, what's different about posting a fact about hunter in the WCPedia versus posting it at the forums? [20:01] But that's besides the point. Citing our sources in general, either for academic or for legal or for personal reasons, is an easy bibliography, since we have a 'canon' that we all know. [20:01] yeah [20:01] We need to figure out how to do it in a way that helps people on an article by article basis. [20:01] yeah [20:01] citations are for our benefit here [20:01] so we know what material comes from where and what has been incorporated or not [20:01] Loaf. I would say simply make note in the article (or discussion page) if it's incomplete. [20:01] just so we know where we can find that particular tidbit in source material [20:01] so to find the most useful method of using them here is what we need to think about [20:02] That's reasonable. Maybe add a tag when it's 'complete' for a particular source. [20:02] but most citations should be in the text for the article "Claws marks states blah.. blah.. blah" [20:02] howabout just adding it as a footnote at the bottom of the page? [20:02] *** ^Nohbody_ has joined #wingnut [20:02] <^Nohbody_> Hola [20:02] hey [20:02] so the footnote at the bottom is good, but it would need something like the "complete tag" too [20:03] Howdy [20:03] what do you mean by complete? [20:03] you mean articles that aren't finished yet? [20:03] so you know if someone just wrote one fact from Claw Marks about a thing versus completing incorporating everything about something from Claw Marks into the wcpedia [20:04] maybe you're crossing it off on a checklist of sources [20:04] but somehow you've got to keep track [20:04] that makes sense. [20:04] oh, so you go through source by source to get all the info on a particular thing? [20:04] at the very least then it sounds like you've listing the sources at the bottom as you incorporate stuff [20:04] like the article on the Tiger's Claw [20:04] first everything from claw marks [20:04] then WC1 [20:04] then Academy [20:04] and so on? [20:04] I'm thinking that our... main team... will be going through all this in a linear fashion [20:04] do you need anything within the body of an entry that ties back to the reference at the bottom? [20:04] Yeah, first do one game then another then another... and as we're finished, give it a WC1 COMPLETE tag [20:05] I think that works [20:05] sounds fair [20:05] Now, since we mentioned it, we need a stylebook [20:05] Something written down that people can refer to for all this... how articles are written, what infoboxes there are, etc. [20:05] and then we tag the article as complete when it has info from every source that the subject of the article appears? [20:05] That's not sexy work, but we have to do it. [20:06] That's right [20:06] that sounds like a plan [20:06] but as for the stylebook [20:06] so like what infoboxes a capital ship class article should have [20:06] or what biographical data needs to be in the infobox for characters? [20:06] Right [20:06] yeah for the time being I've been using the fighter boxes for capships since we don't have any others [20:06] Stuff like the tense and tone for articles [20:07] We'll need some kind of WIkipedia-understanding person working on the stylebook [20:07] we can always just experiment a little too [20:08] like go into the wikipedia article for the Nimitz class [20:08] copy and paste the infobox for the class [20:08] and start changing things to see the result [20:08] Anyway, I just dropped by to, more or less, see what you people were up to. Now I'll get back to learning Simple DirectMedia Layer (SDL). Take care, everyone, and good luck with the WCwiki. [20:08] so we learn the little commands and stuff [20:08] Oh, as I said earlier, it might be a good idea to pick an example from each category to serve as an example of how pages in that category should be done. [20:08] yeah [20:09] well, i could write an article on the Wake class CVE [20:09] already done [20:09] hmm [20:09] *** Soulsphere has quit IRC (Quit: wcnews.com) [20:09] I agree with that, but I think that at this point we will have to spend a few days *creating* those ideal pages. [20:09] yeah [20:09] http://www.wcnews.com/wcpedia/Wake-Class_Escort_Carrier [20:10] So lets generate a list of what those example pages should be. [20:10] allright [20:10] Bengal and Tiger's Claw should be two [20:10] since they are pages that are going ot be accessed a lot [20:10] One for shipclass, one for ship [20:10] like for the article on the Tarawa [20:11] you woudn't dicuss the role of the CVE [20:11] that goes in the class page [20:11] yeah that's how I divided it [20:12] for characters [20:12] Chris Blair should be the ideal article [20:12] That would be a good bit of work. [20:13] Actually Blair may be too long for an Example page. More like one of the wingmen, Link Angel or such [20:13] We should look for examples that involve a few sources, but not too many for us to work out in the next week or so. [20:13] perhaps Iceman? [20:13] Yes, that's a good one [20:13] yeah [20:13] hey everyone [20:13] hey [20:14] Hey [20:14] just read through the backlog, looking good so far [20:14] well i could write new pages [20:14] on the Bengal and on the Tiger's Claw [20:15] you may only need to modify the existing ones [20:15] Figher == Hornet (dosn't mater really) [20:15] the problem is of course [20:15] certain details [20:15] like how the ship changed appearance in so short of time [20:15] I'd not use Tiger's Claw for the same reasion as Blair [20:16] Agreed [20:16] while we're discussing ships and problems thereof [20:16] But then again, we point it out, we don't explain it. [20:16] what of ships with multiple variants that are somewhat distinguished, moreso than others? [20:16] Max: Like? [20:16] my main issue here would be the Dralthi, the organization isn't so hot right now [20:16] but like for instance, the Arena ships [20:16] well for example [20:16] on wikipedia [20:16] there's four known Paktahn variants minimum, for instance [20:17] The F/A-18 has two seperate articles [20:17] in most cases we've just merged them all into one article thus far [20:17]