What is with the Nephilim?

[Quarto]

Penguin: Not quite. First of all, there is a Kilrathi civil war. More than one, in fact. The clans are bickering amongst themselves like crazy.
Second, the Kilrathi don't need any help from Confed when it comes to getting into a fight with each other. However, if Confed was to help one of the clans involved, there is a very high chance that all the clans will turn against Confed.
Note that the above paragraph refers to a situation where Confed would intervene without any Kilrathi clan specifically asking them to. Should a Kilrathi clan ask them to intervene, the situation would of course be greatly different - and Confed then should intervene. But Confed would still refuse to intervene, because any government member who calls for such intervention will undoubtedly lose his position. To put it simply, it would be the Confed equivalent of Vietnam.
Note however that this would not necessarily be the case for the Border Worlds, who obviously take much more interest in Kilrathi affairs

.

 

[Penguin]

I didnt know about the civil war. Anyhow what I meant was that in order to keep the civil war going Confed might have to back one/several factions with supplies, equipment, intell, that sort of thing. Not get directly involved. Yes I agree that that would probably be a Vietnam like situation. The politicians would probably lose their position for suggesting getting into another war with the felines. Memories of forty years of slaughter wouldn't have faded one bit.
However if Confed did intervene I'm not sure that all the clans would turn on Confed. If a civil war between many factions is raging, some clans may not care. And if Confed did intervene it would be in the case of Confed interests being threatened in which case they might not have a choice.

 

[Knight]

There was a lot of things that i didnt liked:
The Black Lance ( it was finished at the end of WC4), or Blair honouring Sivar for example...
But it had some interesting ideas.

Well, depending on the decisions you made in WCIV, the BL could theoritically speaking, exist. If you decided to go to Speardon and destroy Ella with the Flashpack, you got the "Blair is an Admiral" ending, where we hear him dispatch BL forces to settle a dispute. Like I said, theoritically.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

 

[Bellend]

i thought it was just speradon.. nothing to do with ella.

 

[KillerWave]

I know that Knight, but i think in the official WC storyline, the BL was finnished, and i didnt liked that end in WC4, becuase it appears that Blair would agree with Tolwyn at some point!...

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Well, its classified... i mean, i could tell you, but then i have to kill you...

 

[Penguin]

I doubt that the BL is finished & that we'll never hear about them again. More than likely they'll be lurking somewhere in the background. After all they had that space station loaded with all those weapons & supplies. And that's just the stuff we know about.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I agree completely!

Also, I doubt that Nazi Germany is finished & that we'll never hear about them again. More than likely they'll be lurking somewhere in the background. After all they had that Europe loaded with all those weapons & supplies. And that's just the stuff we know about!

[This message has been edited by Bandit LOAF (edited August 07, 2000).]

 

[Shane]

Well, LOAF, if you believe some of the Odessa File stuff, there are old Nazi's around and there is a lot of unaccounted for money. Now, wheter or not they would ever get support anywhere and successfully rise to power is another question altogther. Of course, now, most of them are dead, but there are rumors that money is funding other groups. As for the Black Lance, there may be a few survivors, but after the bio-weapons horror they unleashed, I doubt they would ever have much success. I'm assuming a good number of the "foot soldiers" bought it when the Vesuvius went up.

As for the bathroom question. I'm thinking of small fighters. but if you had something a little larger it would be less of a problem. I do recall either Bear, though maybe it was Hunter complaining once about the lack of facilities in his fighter. Besides for the kind of recon work Quarto was talking about it wouldn't be just a couple days. I did notice in the Prophecy demo the Ray/Remora (The easy to kill one with all the little drones) also is jump capable. Those little drones might make handy scouts. Actually looked at the Nephilim ships database for SO over in CIC, and according to it, it looks like most of the Bugs fighters are jump capable.

As for Blair paying tribute to Sivar. I think it more like a gentile coming into a Jewish temple and wearing a Yamakah. He isn't Jewish, but he shows some respect for them. And in the plotline of that script, he had become a ceremonial Kilrathi, so he was acting the part.I'm glad that story didn't come to fruitiion, though a couple of the elements weren't too bad.

Civil War. COnfed is tired of war, that is true. However, if they had a politician with vision and willing to take a chance, I could see them becoming involved in the war, particulalry coming to Melek's aid, or a clan that is arguing for an alliance with Confed. Granted it would be a hard sell, but it would be owrth it to try to have a peaceful Kilrathi Empire next door instead of a hostile one.

As for Blair and diplomacy. I think they could have worked it that way. Much as in WCIV he was almost a reluctant hero, he could have been a reluctant diplomat, since that is what his duty would require of him. It would just have been a matter of Paladin pushing his buttons the right way.

[This message has been edited by Shane (edited August 07, 2000).]

 

[Hero]

I'm not going to coment on what have been told (because I don't have the "mental power" to do it right now, and because I'm still trying to figure things out for myself), but I'd like to share something that came up to me after I saw an episode of "X-Files" again a time ago: What if the bugs never came to kilrah before, but sent probes into space? Probes with enough AI to locate other creatures and *study* them, enough fire power to *impress* them, and a nice messege like: "You saw what we can do, we know where you are, and we'll be comming to nail you in the future, that is unless you are worthy".

Sure, this isn't perfect, and I myself can find some *misfits* in it, but I'm already used to suggesting things like this, and changing my mind after I come up with something even worse

.

 

[Shane]

I always think of that as the Bambi epsiode of the X-Files, if it is the one I think you are talking about. I call it that because Scully repeats the girls name that Mulder is working with on the phone, with this look of disblief.

"Bambi?" Scully asks.

Mulder continues talking about the bugs.

"Bambi?" Scully asks again.

Mudler still continues talking but all Scully can think of asking is,

"Bambi?"

Loved that one, one of my favorties.

As for your theory, I guess it would be one way, before Jump technology to scout out potential star systems. It would have to be pretty big to be "impressive" and have quite a power source to be able to travel that far. Does help explain the gap a bit better, though the technology stagnation still poses a problem.

 

[Quarto]

Gee, LOAF, you don't say? Wow, I guess all that stuff about German Nazis living a long and merry life all over the world (with the money they looted throughout Europe) is just fiction, eh? I mean, all those protests a few months ago about that Nazi guy who came to Australia... yeah, they MUST have been imagining things. Surely, all the Nazis died the moment Hitler did. Oh, wait... a few survived - somebody had to sign the treaty. But it's all right, they got them during the Nuremburg trial. Yep, all the Nazis are dead, ain't no doubt about it.

Oh, and I'm sure all the Neo-Nazi movements all over the world (we've got one right here in Australia. Of course, they don't call themselves Neo-Nazis) are also a figment of my imagination. Yep, must be.

Whatever LOAF may say, I think we can be certain that the Black Lance does in fact still exist, or at least a few survivors of it are still around. However, they most certainly aren't about to cause any trouble.


Regarding the civil war, I seriously don't think there are any politicians in Confed with enough pull to get Confed involved. I mean, even poor old Paladin can only barely exert enough influence to keep the military funding reasonably high. I'm sure that if he tried to call for intervention, the Populists would tear him to shreds by labelling him a war-monger and all that. Now, the Border Worlds on the other hand...

Penguin: If Confed would intervene, then at least those clans involved in the fight would turn against them ("what right do these humans have to tell us what to do?!"). Of course, there is the possiblity that Confed has no choice - but I don't see how that could be the case. Confed is shielded by the "buffer" which is the Border Worlds. Confed systems hardly ever see any Kilrathi raiders (except perhaps in Gemini, but that's a roguish place anyway). I suspect that even the Valgard action described in the ICIS manual was really only done because the Midway needed a test.

Shane, doesn't False Colours have something to say about the subject of Confed intervention, Kilrathi civil wars, and such?

 

[Knight]

I agree completely!

Also, I doubt that Nazi Germany is finished & that we'll never hear about them again. More than likely they'll be lurking somewhere in the background. After all they had that Europe loaded with all those weapons & supplies. And that's just the stuff we know about!

[This message has been edited by Bandit LOAF (edited August 07, 2000).]

LOAF, do you know how many Nazis (at least in their minds), racist, etc people in this world there are? Confed would be the same way. There will always be those few people. Do you really think, that someone on a budget stand like Confed is, would blow up a HUGE base, or at least resort it to even worse duties, just because a group like the BL resided there? I think not.

A base like the Axius Station, along with all the weapons, (though, the Bioweapons were probably disposed of, most of them anyway. I'd say a few were kept. Look at how governments are run today. You really think we all go rid of our nukes when that treaty was signed?

), anyway, all the weapons, not to mention how big of a staging base it would be. Just because it was used for wrong doing, doesn't mean they're going to waste that many credits (which they put up anyway). It'd be like building a manson and then never be there to enjoy it. Considering that the US didn't fund the Nazis, that would be one reason to get rid of their supplies, weapons, etc. But if you funded something,why not reap the benefits, (what little there are.)

Killer Wave: Well, You had to chose Speardon AND FP Ella, 'cause I only did one my first 2 times through, and I didn't get it, but on my 3rd, I did both and got it.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

 

[Knight]

Whatever LOAF may say, I think we can be certain that the Black Lance does in fact still exist, or at least a few survivors of it are still around. However, they most certainly aren't about to cause any trouble.

Thank you Quarto. At least we can agree on one thing

I agree fully.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

 

[Quarto]

Knight: Actually, they would have destroyed Axius Station. Why? Because it's the best available symbol of the Black Lance. It's great PR material ("See? We've just destroyed their base... and of course... all the stuff on it... yes... it was quite full of Black Lance stuff") to destroy it. And because the video would obviously have to be filmed from outside the base, nobody would even notice that the base is completely empty inside.
The bioweapons would have probably been destroyed mostly - but even with bioweapons, a few would be kept... for research, of course.

 

[KillerWave]

Ok, maybe i didnt explain very well what i was thinking when i sayd that the BL was finnished. But appears Quart read my mind

Whatever LOAF may say, I think we can be certain that the Black Lance does in fact still exist, or at least a few survivors of it are still around. However, they most certainly aren't about to cause any trouble.

Killer Wave: Well, You had to chose Speardon AND FP Ella, 'cause I only did one my first 2 times through, and I didn't get it, but on my 3rd, I did both and got it.

I know about it Knight, what i mean is that in the official wc storyline (even that i didnt got my hands in any wc book yet

), in SO you also must defend ELLA, so it wasnt destroyed, also if Blair is a Commodore and not an Admiral, so i think that Blair didnt wanted to keep the Bl alive.

About the civil war, i agree with Quarto, even if Confed help any clan in the cat war, all the other clans would declare war against confed...so it wouldnt be a good idea.

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Well, its classified... i mean, i could tell you, but then i have to kill you...

[This message has been edited by KillerWave (edited August 08, 2000).]

 

[klaus]

Confed involvement could end up like gambling on a slot machine, or in another game inside a casino. Some resources at the beginning, and a prize at the end, but very few chances of lucking it out in the first try. Could end up like a money trap.



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"This matter winds itself ever in new riddles.", Faramir - The Lord of The Rings

"...we follow the sun, we follow the sun, we follow the sun..."

 

[Death]

Unsurprisingly, LOAF's sarcasm went sailing over a lot of peoples' heads. So, without further ado, let me translate his sarcasm.

The Black Lance is dead as a doornail, as far as the official WC universe is concerned. Gone, finished, kaput, a distant memory.

There may be a few BL people running around here and there, maybe with a fighter or two (but not Dragons; remember they did have some BW ships for the purposes of inciting war with the UBW, as well as the modified Hellcats from the WC4 novelization) stashed somewhere, but the Black Lance, as a formal organization, <Angel>doesn't exist.</Angel>

After the trial, the UBW and Confed joined forces to eradicate the remains of the Black Lance. (WCP Strategy Guide, p. 11)

Furthermore, we also have Dallas' words from WCP, when he was talking with Lance Casey in the lounge. Specifically: "[T]he Border Worlds were quiet, what with the Black Lance out of the picture." While it's true that not everything is told to everyone, at the very least the guys on the pointy end of the stick need to know about what they might come up against. As Dallas is a lowly 2LT talking to another 2LT while aboard the ship, it'd be kinda pointless to lie about a potential adversary. (Please, put away the whacked-out conspiracy theories. At least try to act like you've not the IQ of approximately Jello.)

In short, save some stupid idea (see above, regarding conspiracies; see also "fanfic"), there is no Black Lance.

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SubCrid Death
Official Net.Nazi, LOAF's Merry Guild

 

[Nighthawk]

But what about Tolwyn's thoughts at the end of TPoF right before he commits suicide?

IIRC there are some hints about ...elements securely hidden away.... Wouldn't that suggest that there is a significantly large group of the BL still at large? I doubt that they would have been given away by other captured members (if they knew about them at all).

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No one will hear your cry of death in the void of space

 

[Quarto]

Unsurprisingly, some people forget to read posts carefully before jumping to conclusions about what the others are saying.

Nobody is saying that the Black Lance is about to strike, Death

. All I'm saying is that there are still a few Black Lancers out there, and they're still armed - I believe that's exactly what you said, too (note: but I'm fairly certain they do have some Dragons. Dragons have cloaks, and are jump capable. So which BL ships do you reckon would have the best ability to get away?). Now that I think about it though... well, they certainly wouldn't be organised, but they sure aren't just living in a nice climate, growing roses. These people are trained warriors, they have equipment - but they probably have little or no money. Chances are, they've joined various pirate gangs, which are quite plentiful in certain parts of the WC Universe.

At this point, I'd like to bring up a rather interesting piece of information that clearly neither you or LOAF ever heard of. Kurt Waldheim, the fourth UN - yes, UN - Secretary-General, was linked to Nazi war crimes. Hmm... the UN... Secretary-General... tsk, tsk.
Obviously, people can get far if they know what they're doing. And there's only one thing Black Lance soldiers can do well...

Oh, and regarding "at the very least the guys on the pointy end of the stick need to know about what they might come up against" - WC2, SO1. I don't know about you, but those Ferrets from the Gettysburg were quite a surprise to me.

 

[Penguin]

OK. OK. Let's not fight. Let's just say that if there are any BL elements left, they're probably not going to have a prominent part of any future WC product.